Marisa Wojcik:
Welcome to Noon Wednesday. I’m Marisa Wojcik, a multimedia journalist with Here & Now on Wisconsin Public Television. So over the last week, Wisconsin politicians have been challenging one another over an issue that has been plaguing farmers across the country, and that’s farmer mental health and suicide. So last week, the Joint Finance Committee delayed some funding for additional mental health programs for farmers, and on Monday, the Speaker’s Task Force on Suicide Prevention also met and discussed this topic. So our guest today was at Monday’s hearing and testified, John Shutske, is a UW-Extension Agricultural and Health and Safety specialist.

John Shutske:
Correct.

Marisa Wojcik:
You’ve spoken with thousands of farmers, listened to their stories, and helped them navigate difficult times, and thank you so much for being here.

John Shutske:
You’re welcome. Appreciate being here.

Marisa Wojcik:
In your work, you told me that farmer suicide is just the tip of the iceberg. What did you mean by that?

John Shutske:
A lot of attention has been paid since probably 2018, there was a big CC report that came out actually in the latter part of 2017, suggesting a very high rate of continued suicide among farmers, and while that’s garnered so much attention politically and with the media, and obviously with the rural communities, the bigger issue is really, while it’s terribly sad when a suicide occurs, it affects all people in the community, but the bigger issue is that for every one suicide, we have a number of people who are struggling with the day-to-day stresses, the long-term, I guess I’ll call it chronic stress that manifests as a result of the current pressures that people are feeling financially, a really kind of about a five year downturn in the farm economy, and then also that obviously creates things like depression, or situations like depression and anxiety. When you combine that with alcohol use, and especially when people feel a sense of hopelessness or helplessness, which is quite common in these times, we do see the spike in suicides.

Marisa Wojcik:
On Monday, you spoke to the Speaker’s Task Force on Suicide Prevention.

John Shutske:
Correct.

Marisa Wojcik:
What was your biggest takeaway from that entire hearing?

John Shutske:
Oh, I was asked to come in and speak on behalf of UW-Extension, which is now part of UW-Madison, and we have people in all 72 counties, so what they really wanted from me was kind of an overview on how Extension is responding to the farm crisis in terms of how that affects people’s potential for suicide, suicide prevention specifically, but also the bigger constellation of all of these issues with mental health, stress, and depression. So my message was, really that in Extension, and here at the University of Wisconsin, we care deeply about the people in our communities, with our connections as part of the Wisconsin idea, we want to make sure that we’re doing programming that’s responsive not only to mental health and stress management, and family relationships, but we also need to give people kind of a pathway forward, so we’re putting a lot of effort into financial tools for farmers and families and community members, so that they can begin to plan for a more positive future.

Marisa Wojcik:
Did it feel like there’s the potential for bipartisan support?

John Shutske:
Oh I think, I think certainly listening to the various members of this committee, I knew a little bit about who was in which party, but clearly there is a lot of care and concern for the members of our rural and farming communities. I know that people on both sides of the aisle sitting in that particular committee meeting were farmers, or directly associated with a farming either business or other type of operation, so yeah. I mean and my job wasn’t to be there from a political perspective.

Marisa Wojcik:
Mm-hmm.

John Shutske:
It was more to lend ideas and recommendations and resources to the committee.

Marisa Wojcik:
The Joint Finance Committee did delay approval for some additional funding for resources and programming, and we saw a little bit of some traditional Republican, Democratic finger pointing, so what is your reaction, as someone that does more traditionally work with farmers and doesn’t have a political role, what do you think when you do see some of this political finger pointing?

John Shutske:
Yeah, I need to be really careful in the position I’m at here at the university because my job and my mission is to serve farmers and farm family members. From what I understood, I mean, I’d seen probably the same things that you saw and read, but from what I saw, there were some people who had been seeking out more information, there might have been a little bit of maybe some communication channels that weren’t quite, you know, completed, so some of the legislators were actually looking for more information, and I think that they got a lot of that information at the Monday hearing up at Marshfield.

Marisa Wojcik:
And not only the actual physical barriers to reaching help, but there’s, is there also some of that seeking mental health help stigma that’s even stronger in the farming community?

John Shutske:
There’s a big stigma. I think, first of all, first getting people to overcome this feeling of, okay the answer isn’t necessarily, you know, “Things are getting bad, I’m struggling.” So the common reaction is people say, “I’m just going to put my nose to the grindstone. “Instead of working a 75-hour work week, “I’m going to work a 100-hour work week, “and just kind of plow through it.” Unfortunately, that’s when bad things happen. Getting people to admit, like, “Yeah this is probably “something that I don’t have to face,” and that there might be some help with, is a real struggle. Our farm families out in Wisconsin, the nature, I grew up on a farm. We tend to be very independent. We tend to be, we’re often okay with asking for help if it comes to somebody in the family being sick or if there’s a death in the family, you know, farmers and farming communities are infamous, they’re famous for kind of coming together when something bad or tragic happens, but that doesn’t necessarily translate into mental health. I do believe in some families and in some communities it still could be viewed as a sign of, you know, “Why isn’t this person able to cope?” And we need to move past that. I will say one thing. I’ve done work in several other states, including the South and Southeastern part of the country, some of our states to the West, and Wisconsin is actually making progress. I see a lot of farmers and agricultural community groups that are hosting workshops, and they’re talking about suicide and depression, and getting help, so I think we’re on the road towards breaking that stigma.

Marisa Wojcik:
You also mentioned that when you are speaking to a large group of farmers, you ask them one particular question, and kind of take a poll of the room, and what’s that question, and what’s the response?

John Shutske:
I often ask people, this is with both men and women sitting in the room, but, “When’s the last time “you saw your family practice doctor, or your local health care provider, “who provides primary care.” And if I ask people, “How many people in the last year?” And a couple hands, out of maybe 25 will go up, and I usually have to get up to around four or five or six years. Our farmers are typically a relatively healthy group. I think there’s a couple… They don’t smoke as much. They lead a relatively active lifestyle, and those are two really big, important things for health, but it is important if you’re out there in a farming community, that you get in from time to time. Whether it’s a routine annual check-up, or at least every couple years, getting in and just, you know, taking care of those needs. Those aches and pains. Maybe some of things you have. Sharing what you do. Most local doctors know what your occupation is, but certainly sharing that because I think there is a growing sense of awareness, and they’re really a first line of protection and defense.

Marisa Wojcik:
I found it interesting that you’ve been doing this work for 25 years, behavioral health, and this issue of farmers and mental health and farmer suicide goes back to the 1980s.

John Shutske:
It goes back to the 80s, yeah.

Marisa Wojcik:
So this is nothing new, but it really is starting to be more and more alarming to people over the last four to five years. Is that right?

John Shutske:
I think so. I think part of it is the media publicity that it’s gotten. I think also the last four to five years, we’ve seen this really prolonged downturn in the economy. Things have plateaued where input costs like seed and fuel and fertilizer and you know, basic energy to heat and cool a livestock building, as an example, those have stayed high. Crop and milk prices have gone low, but for a prolonged period of time. So I think, I do think that there is a bit of alarm now. I think that alarm now is that we’re losing, in the state of Wisconsin, we’re losing, one to two dairy farms a day. And these tend to be our, not always, but they tend to be our somewhat smaller operations. These are almost always families, and so there are families who are displaced, or at least short-term. And the children are affected, and obviously the next generation is affected. And I’ll just tell you one thing that leads to this higher risk of suicide, is when a person is forced economically out of the industry. They feel like they somehow failed, not only their parents and grandparents, and even their great grandparents, but also that future generation. They wanted to pass the farm on to their children or their grandchildren, and that’s that sense of failure that really causes a lot of concern.

Marisa Wojcik:
But your organization, at UW-Extension, especially on your website, there’s a lot of resources that go beyond just, “This is where you can find mental health.” It looked like there was a lot of resources of just, “This is how you can plan for the future.”

John Shutske:
Yeah.

Marisa Wojcik:
“This is how other farms have adapted. “These are things that you can do financially. “These are things you can do with new technologies, “more efficiencies.” Does, do you see that as kind of a true, long-term solution?

John Shutske:
Yeah, well I think we realized, probably eight to 10 months ago, that we can only go so far in terms of traditional stress management, and that’s like, really important because for your brain and body to be healthy, you need energy, you need to be exercising. All of those things are important, but we also felt that we needed to really help people address the root causes, the stressors. The things that are causing stress. Right now, again, that’s largely financial. It’s about the fear of the future. We also know that when people are under this high level of long-term, chronic stress, you actually lose capacity. You lose access to, at least short-term, the parts of the brain that are needed to be able to think forward to a positive future. That’s your memory, and we call the pre-frontal cortex your brain’s mental scratchpad. So you need to be able to access that effectively to be able to think forward. So a lot of our stress management work at Extension right now is focused on sitting down with people and helping walk them through the finances, the planning, the long-term. It could be getting bigger, getting smaller, getting different, diversifying, maybe getting an off-farm job, either permanently or temporarily. Or it could also include exiting the industry, and how you do that is really important because you need a pathway forward. Whether that’s more education, or finding somebody in your community who really appreciates all the skills and the attributes that you can bring to the work force.

Marisa Wojcik:
Do you see a robust enough network of resources for farmers? You know, you have the UW-Extension site, you have potentially some funding coming from the state. Is there enough holistic help for farmers to really give them enough of what they need in case, maybe the funding doesn’t come through. Is there enough?

John Shutske:
In the presentation that I did at the hearing on Monday, I did talk about the need for holistic services, and you’re exactly right. That (mumbles) everybody who’s part of a rural community, whether you’re providing goods or services, or information or healthcare, we have to have all those people be part of the solution. I do see that there is a growing sense of awareness. I think one of the places where people struggle just a little bit is like, “Okay I get it.” “Farmers and their families and their children “are under this tremendous burden of stress, “but what can I do?” So we are trying to help people with some of those how-to’s or putting some handles on things that they can do. We can always use more. We always, I think, are working to build a better understanding of Wisconsin agriculture. The contribution to our communities and our culture. I mean, this goes back a couple hundred years. If you look at our first immigrants into the state. So really, really quite important.

Marisa Wojcik:
Are there any particular stories as you’ve spoken with so many farmers, especially in Wisconsin. Are there any particular stories that really stood out to you, or really hit home for you, especially as someone that grew up on a farm?

John Shutske:
I think I was at a program in the wintertime. I did a lot of work in the winter. Traveling not only in Wisconsin, but several other states, and I did have a couple of gentlemen in a couple of different programs who told me, they said, “John, you know, “you’re talking about all these behavioral practices, “the wellness, again, the eating correctly, “and communicating with family members, “but you just don’t understand.” And in one case, a person had told me after the program that they had been denied a loan, and that this had been on Tuesday. The following I think Friday or Saturday, went back to a second source. They were simply not able to get money to go into the next growing season. Which would be the season that we’re in now. And I think, and we had a lot of discussion, a lot of conversation. I think that’s where we really, really realized that we need to get at the root with some of the financial tools because this person was as if they had had black shutters just kind of shut in front of them, and they could not see a pathway forward. I will also say that we spoke for an hour after that workshop, and I think that person walked away with some resources, some phone numbers of people to call, and again, confidentiality for me is super important, but I think it was helpful.

Marisa Wojcik:
Well very important work. Thank you so much for being here.

John Shutske:
Thank you.

Marisa Wojcik:
For more from Here & Now and Wisconsin Public Television, you can visit wpt.org and thank you so much for joining us on Noon Wednesday.