Marisa Wojcik:

Welcome to Noon Wednesday, I’m Marisa Wojcik, a Multimedia Journalist with Here & Now on PBS Wisconsin. So on Monday, the United States Supreme Court unblocked federal rule changes that are known as public charge policies. So public charge policies are longstanding rules that are used to determine an immigrant’s legal status, however, in August the Trump Administration expanded these rules and so now there’s a lot of concern and confusion that’s being created amongst immigrant communities. So people are afraid that these are going to cause additional barriers and just general fear when immigrants are going to be seeking public benefits that they might be eligible for, and legally entitled to. So joining me to talk about this is Caroline Gomez-Tom, and you are seeing the real-world impacts of this. You are the Director of Patient and Community Engagement at the 16th Street Community Health Centers in Milwaukee, thank you so much for being here.

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Thanks for having me.

Marisa Wojcik:

For people that have never heard of this before, it sounds like an odd term, public charge. What does it mean, what does public charge mean?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Yeah, so public charge just means that there’s a likelihood that the federal government might deem you as someone dependent on public benefits and other factors that determine your dependency on the government.

Marisa Wojcik:

So literally, like charging the public for services that you might encounter. So what kind of services or benefits are we actually talking about?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

So that’s kind of where the change has happened. So initially we were talking about cash benefits, like Wisconsin Works, or any welfare dollars that people could receive. Long-term care for nursing homes and things like that, Supplemental Security Income, so SSI, and then any other programs that really were kind of at the discretion of like a consulate officer that would be figuring out the processing of an individual. The change though now includes Medicaid, so like our state’s Budget Care Plus program, for certain individuals, and then Food Share as well.

Marisa Wojcik:

And what about health insurance or healthcare?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Yeah, so our state’s Medicaid program is our health insurance program, and so here in Wisconsin, that health insurance program is called Badger Care.

Marisa Wojcik:

So are these benefits that immigrants are utilizing legally?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

So that’s another factor. Many immigrants actually will not be impacted by this public charge policy, because one, they’re in a protected class of immigrants. So like for example people who have their permanent residency, or people who have certain visas under a humanitarian status, or if they’re refugees or asylees, they all can continue to use the programs that they’re eligible for without any concern about public charge, ’cause they’re a protected immigrant status, and then for immigrant folks that are still here legally, but might not be eligible for those programs, they themselves would not be impacted, because they can’t qualify for the program. So a lot of folks won’t actually be directly impacted. For the folks that do, they’re usually more rare occurrences, and it’s not just the public benefits that would be looked at, there’s actually a factor, including age, income, credit score, that the consulates, and when they’re changing their status they could be looking at that would determine whether or not they’re a public charge, not just the public benefits themselves, and that’s where our group was created so that we could help people that might just have questions about it find qualified legal help at a low or free cost to help them understand their particular situation. ‘Cause it really could be person-to-person.

Marisa Wojcik:

Okay. So the rule change is causing people to think, if I use public benefits–

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Generally.

Marisa Wojcik:

That I am going to have all of these things counted against me, and that I could potentially endanger my legal status, or maybe even be deported. But that is not the case is what you’re saying?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

No, and that’s exactly why people are foregoing those types of benefits. Even before this policy was in full effect, when it was originally leaked almost two years ago, we saw families concerned about utilizing public benefits that they were absolutely eligible for, including programs that their children, who are U.S.-born were utilizing, you know, family-saving benefits that they thought, oh, if my child is on Badger Care Plus, our state’s Medicaid program, that could impact me gaining legal status in the future.

Marisa Wojcik:

So when you say our group was created, you’re referring to the Wisconsin Collaboration on Immigrants and Public Benefits?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Exactly.

Marisa Wojcik:

Tell me a little bit about that, like who’s involved, what are you trying to do, and what’s happened since you formed?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Yeah, so we formed because we noticed that there was a lot of fear going on around just policy changes around immigration generally. Public charge was definitely a catalyst of us getting together, and the groups that are involved are the Wisconsin Primary Healthcare Association, covering Wisconsin and the Milwaukee Enrollment Network, and Domestic Abuse Wisconsin, Legal Action of Wisconsin, Kids Forward, and then 16th Street Community Health Center, represented by me.

Marisa Wojcik:

And what are you all setting out to do? How are you collaborating?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Yeah, so we are kind of a local, so Wisconsin-focused in terms of the public benefits that we discuss and help educate around. Really, walking through the rules around public charge, how someone would be impacted or not impacted. What programs are safe for people to use, regardless of their immigration status. Putting useful information that is in a clear, concise, and helpful, understandable way of sharing, so that people don’t have to make fear-based choices, rather fact-based ones. And so we’ve done presentations in the community around this topic. We’ve helped just put together materials that are in low literacy levels, so that people can understand it, and then like for example, at 16th Street, we’ve been working with our staff to just make sure that they’re equipped with information so that if people do come in asking questions about should I not enroll in this program? We can give them clear information, guidance, and then if they have additional need for resources, getting them to those legal professionals that are available to really give them specific support around their current situation.

Marisa Wojcik:

And have you found success, and have you found engagement? Has it been working to have this group collaborate in a very kind of holistic way, since you approach a lot of these benefits from a lot of different angles?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Yes, we found it beneficial to work together, to have kind of a standardized message that we can share with our community partners, to get the materials in the hands of people that are going to be working directly with immigrants that might be concerned about these issues. Is our job done? No, I think we have a really steep uphill battle around these particular policies, because the fear is really shared word-of-mouth. You know, one person’s experience could influence many other people’s experience, just by saying, you know, this happened to me. But that might be very different than the circumstance that another person, another immigrant is in.

Marisa Wojcik:

And from the people that I’ve talked to about this issue, that word is what comes up every single time, is fear. This fear that is spreading, and a lot of different policy changes, the confusion and the fear seems to do more than the actual policy potentially could by itself. So can you give us some examples of things that you have seen of people that, have had things happen to them, or haven’t, but this has been the side effect?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

So I can share mostly of our work at 16th Street Community Health Centers. We have an enrollment department where we help people sign up for the state’s Medicaid program, and the health insurance marketplace, and so we’ve had people, one concerned that, by having their children enrolled in the state’s budget care program, that means that that could negatively impact their family. And sometimes I’ve seen cases where, it’s not actually what the public charge rule would do, but rather what they think it could do. So like you mentioned, deportation, or just general concerns that, that means they’re going to have to pay the money back for the services that their children receive. You know, things like that that are actually not true, not accurate. We’ve also seen women who are pregnant, that are eligible for the prenatal program, Badger Care Program that is not included in the public charge rule, not want prenatal services and care at our clinic as well, or just at community health centers generally. We’ve seen people not want to get on our sliding fee scale, which is a program that is regardless of your insurance status something that’s available to anyone who enters our doors. So making sure that we can connect with those people, and let them know that this program doesn’t apply, and that they have access to our full slew of services. And then, finally, people just frankly, just not wanting to share their information. For example, we have a Woman, Infant, and Children Nutrition program, so the WICK program. Nationally, they’ve seen numbers decrease in people participating in this program, and these are benefits for both mother and newborn baby that are crucial for starting a newborn’s life, and so we’ve seen our numbers go down, ’cause we have a WICK program as well. So people not wanting to show up for their appointments. And so one of the things that we’ve done is actually make it available so people could call in, rather than have to come in person, just for the fear that coming in could risk something else. It’s not specific to public charge exclusively. There’s a lot of other policies that have just slowly trickled out of the current administration, and people are just generally scared of what that all means. For example, the DREAM Act, that’s still in question with the Supreme Court. And yeah, I think putting the tools and information that is available so that it’s accurate to all of the partners that are trusted in the community, like 16th Street, that’s the best route for at least getting the right information to those folks, and allowing them to make their choice, not having them be forced to make it out of fear.

Marisa Wojcik:

And you know, we’re talking about misinformation, misconceptions. The public charge policy in general is trying to kind of take a holistic picture of all of these different factors, right? What kind of programs people use, their job status, their education level, their English proficiency. Do a lot of those things kind of get balled up in the conversation when people are thinking about public charge, and trying to say one way or another, kind of what the policy is actually for, and does that kind of help spread that misinformation?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Well, I think it’s hearing first, and honoring, you know, the fact that they’re concerned, and hearing what they’re concerned about exclusively. A lot of folks gravitate to the program itself, like, that’s the reason why I can’t sign up, because by being on this program, X, Y, and Z might happen to me. And so really, being clear with what the factors of the statuses that are not impacted, the programs that are not impacted, and then when we get through those initial barriers of understanding for those folks, getting them to the right resources if they have additional questions. ‘Cause us just telling them what the facts are about the policy, that might not change their mind, and we have to honor that, because it is their choice, ultimately, at the end of the day, if they want to enroll in those programs. But what we can do is say, if you’re still concerned, here are some other resources that you can, people you can talk to to really help you make the right choice for yourself and your family, so that you feel safe.

Marisa Wojcik:

And you’re located in Milwaukee, but there are immigrant populations all across Wisconsin. Are there resources only if you’re kind of in a bigger city or are there options for people to seek help, or assistance, or guidance, if they’re in a different part of the state?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Yeah, so, our clinics are actually in Milwaukee and Waukesha, we do have one in Waukesha, but our collaborative, we’ve made a point to find resources that are available statewide, and so we have them, of course, in Milwaukee, in Madison, in the major cities. But then Green Bay, La Crosse. And a lot of opportunities to talk to folks, even over the phone if necessary, and so that’s one of the things that we felt was really important. And that’s why we’ve done presentations across the state, too, to just have other organizations feel more equipped to discuss this issue.

Marisa Wojcik:

And what do you see going forward? Do you see an increase in partnership, do you see different ways of trying to reach people, and do you see maybe the fear getting worse? How do you kind of envision things, based on how it’s been going so far?

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a really complex scenario that we’re in right now, where different policies keep coming out, and so everyone I think is going to compound on one another. Like, each policy that’s addressed. So the thing we can do is just combat that with knowledge, with information, and make sure that people are equipped. So our group is committed to continuing to do presentations, continuing to update our materials. We have updated resources now on the public charge, so as the new rule was decided to be in effect, for at least while they’re deciding the final court case, those materials are now live, and so people can access them on CoveringWBI.org/Immigration.

Marisa Wojcik:

All right, well, Caroline, thank you so much for telling us a little bit more about this.

Caroline Gomez-Tom:

Yeah, it’s my pleasure, and thanks for bringing the topic in front of everyone.

Marisa Wojcik:

Absolutely. For more from Here & Now and PBS Wisconsin, you can visit PBSWisconsin.org, and thank you so much for joining us on Noon Wednesday.