Marisa Wojcik:

Welcome to “Noon Wednesday,” I’m Marisa Wojcik, multimedia journalist with “Here & Now” on PBS Wisconsin. Today is October 20. Wisconsin is in the throes of redistricting, done once every ten years. The process uses the latest census data to not only redraw congressional, assembly and state senate districts, but also assembly and county and municipal lines as well. A group of residents is particularly left behind in the process, people who are incarcerated and lost their right to vote, but they are counted — but the way they are counted still has big impacts. We are joined Jerome Dillard and Peggy West-Schroder, of the advocacy group Ex-Incarcerated People Organizing. Thank you both for being here.

Peggy West-Schroder:

Thank you for having us.

Jerome Dillard:

Thank you for having us.

Marisa Wojcik:

Jerome, I want to start with you. A new report released this past week says Wisconsin incarcerates Black adults at a rate more than double the national average. Wisconsin is the worst for the rates. Roughly 1 out of every 36 Black residents are incarcerated. Did this come as a surprise to you, and how did this state get to this point?

Jerome Dillard:

Well, it did not come as a surprise to me, and although it is a new report, I believe that, truly, the results have been the same for a couple of decades for the state of Wisconsin. We’ve with always lingered in the top tier of one of the worst states in the country to be African American and racial disparities within the criminal justice system. So —

Marisa Wojcik:

And, again, how did we get here?

Jerome Dillard:

Well, first of all, you know, it is not just those who are incarcerated because I want to say that corrections only receive those that the courts sent to them. The courts only receive those who are adjudicated by the district attorneys. The district attorney only is charging volition, doing arrests. So, it starts early on. It starts with policing all the way up to those who are supervised under what we call “community corrections,” which is a division of the Department of Corrections. I feel that the school to prison pipeline is still alive and going here in the state of Wisconsin. I also feel that, you know, the racial disparities are something we attempted to address, and on several occasions, around the state, there were racial disparities task force who did planning, looking at the disparities in their counties, and the municipalities, and I’m in Dane County, and we came up with recommendations over a year, after 18 months of meeting as the Dane County Racial Disparities Task Force, and we came up with many recommendations, but very few were implemented. I think that’s where were missing the boat here as implementing those results that come out of thee particular work groups.

Marisa Wojcik:

And, Peggy, why does the census counting the home address of someone who is currently incarcerated at the address of where the prison or jail is located and not where they last lived? Why does that happen?

Marisa Wojcik:

Peggy, can you hear me?

Peggy West-Schroder:

Oh, yeah, I can. Sorry, I didn’t know that was directed towards me. So, what happens is in the state of Wisconsin, you are counted as — you are counted if you are incarcerated in the facility that you are incarcerated in. So, that both has financial and political implications to those communities. So, you get money according to how many people you’re counting in your census, which is the motivation, obviously, for counting them there, but then politically, what you’re doing, and this census is a great example of that. So, Milwaukee County has lost 17,000 people from its census. All of those 17,000 people, majority of them, are incarcerated in other parts of the state. My husband is an example. He’s incarcerated in Red Granite and counted in the census in Red Granite, returned home to Milwaukee County in April. He’s only literally lived in Red Granite for four months, and now that money and those resources that come with that money and his political, you know — the political clout that comes with that money or with that clout also stayed in Red Granite, and so we are in a situation, again, here in Milwaukee County, where we with are actually going to lose people of color representation, districts of color because our numbers no longer support what, you know, what our population is. So our population no longer supports or gives us this numbers, but, again, we know the people will be returning and most likely before those ten years are up to an address in Milwaukee County, and this happens across the state. The other thing is that it then skews your racial disparity numbers. If youre looking at Boscobel. They have 28% African-American, well, the majority of those are coming because they counted people in the prison, and not because it is organic to Boscobel. So, if there’s grant money available, resources available, for community of color, you can pick out a district in Boscobel and be like, oh, yeah, there’s people of color here, and they should then have access to those resources, when, in reality, they don’t have access to the resources because they are incarcerated.

Marisa Wojcik:

And, Peggy, what is the demographic of where these prisons are located in the state? What is affect does it have in that community that lies within to count incarcerated people as residents of that district?

Peggy West-Schroder:

You’re talking very small communities. Most prisons in the state other than Milwaukee Secure Detention Facility and Racine Correctional Facility are literally in a very small communities like Boscobel. Green Bay’s a little bigger visibility, but you have Gordon up north where people, a lot of times, do not know where that is. Chippewa. What you are doing is creating a false population there because you are counting people that are incarcerated there. People who don’t use the roads. People who don’t, you know, shop in those local — they do get ambulance service, obviously, but they, for the most part don’t go to the hospitals in those areas. They are transported to hospitals that are configured to serve them, and so you have resources, again, that are being allocated through the census, through this count, but it is a false count. So, part of what EXPOs Unlock the Vote legislation asks is it asks for the state of Wisconsin to change the way that we count people, and to actually count people from the communities that they have to return to when they are released versus where they are physically located at this moment.

Marisa Wojcik:

Jerome, one statistic reported by the “Journal Sentinel” recently said the combined prison and local jail population it is equivalent to 80% the adult population of a typical assembly district. Does this population have any voice or ability for their interest to be represented in that district?

Jerome Dillard:

Unfortunately, no, we do not have any voice in those districts. The fact of the matter is individuals who are in our community, paying taxes, working, taking care of their families, but yet still have no say in school, who is on the children’s school board, who represents the community that they live in. You know, taxation without representation has been my pet peeve. That’s part of the reason we started Unlock the Vote campaign in 2019 — 2017, we actually looked at it, and 2019, we were able to get some legislation written on that, but it did not get anywhere. The fact of the matter is that many individuals in Wisconsin are roughly 47,000, between 44,000 and 47,000 individuals under the control of community corrections in Wisconsin, and as long as you’re on supervision, parole, or probation, you cannot cast a ballot. You have not gained your citizenship, but there’s been a trend around the country where we are seeing when individuals leave correctional facilities, automatically their voting rights are reinstated, and over the years, Ive just seen state after state grant these rights, and, recently, we just had the Governor of Iowa, who did an executive order to get grant voting rights to individuals who are paying taxes, who are in the community, and taking care of their families, and so I think it is a the right thing to do, to be honest with you, and we should never lose our voting rights, but we are making that compromise to say, let us vote once we are back in the community, and I don’t think that’s asking too much, but no, to answer your question, they have no say.

Marisa Wojcik:

And, Jerome, what about those who say, well, someone in prison has forfeited their right to vote, and technically, they do have representation if they are able to contact the representative of that district is that enough of an ability to connect with a representative in the area?

Jerome Dillard:

Well, are we talking about the area where they are housed, or are we talking about the area where they are coming from? You know, there’s —

Marisa Wojcik:

Where they are housed.

Jerome Dillard:

There’s a distinction there.

Marisa Wojcik:

Yeah.

Jerome Dillard:

Well, absolutely not. None whatsoever. I mean, when you are serving time in Dodge County, which has several prisons there, it really boosts the numbers of county residents in Dodge County because they have four active prisons in that county. Yet, still, they can — if they contact their representative from anywhere in that area, they are not going to get a response. They are looked at, but prisoners, temporary residents, they could be looked at from many different views, but, no, they will not get a response. We have no say.

Marisa Wojcik:

Peggy, what effect does this have on the community from which those who are incarcerated actually call their home?

Peggy West-Schroder:

Well, again, you know, we were losing representation, and so if you’re not being counted where you are from, then you — your representation stays where you were incarcerated, and as Jerome just stated, you know, we have very abysmal opportunities to get a response from our state senators. They have hired someone to directly impact work in her office, and she returns phone calls. She’s one of the only state representatives that we have heard of who do this, and then, you know, so we’re literally in a situation where you could — we could lose congressional seats. The way that the congressional maps are drawn in Wisconsin leaves a lot to question how exactly that happens, but if you take a look, again, you have Milwaukee, which is the largest — the economic engine of the state, but yet we have the smallest congressional district, and then you take a look at the other places in the state where there are prisons, and their districts are much larger, and, you know, it begs to question, you know, how did this happen? And, you know, the answer, part of the answer to that question is, is that people are being counted in places that they do not live. That wouldn’t be terrible if we were not — they were not benefiting from being counted in the districts both politically and financially.

Marisa Wojcik:

And, so, is this an issue of the census needs to change what information they are gathering? Does it need to say whereas if you are incarcerated, where is your permanent residence? What is the location?

Peggy West-Schroder:

Yes.

Marisa Wojcik:

What is the location of your prison or does it have to come in the form of more legislation from the state side of what they then do with the census data?

Peggy West-Schroder:

We would like to see both. We would like to see them count people differently. We would like to see people counted. Again, especially in the state of Wisconsin, you have to return to the district that you were charged in. So, it is not as if someone in Boscobel has the opportunity to stay there. We see this all the time. People who are working in the community, have jobs there, and they are not allowed to stay there. They have to come back to the community that they come from. Yet, again, you know, the money and resources that come from them being counted in that census stay there. And so, we would like to see the, you know, we’d like to see that process changed. We would also like to see it set in stone through some legislative action.

Marisa Wojcik:

Jerome, how much of this kinds of — kind of ends up being a feedback loop? These districts lose representation that could lead to representation in their districts and enacting policies, or it could mean funding, and then we go back to Wisconsin having some of the highest rates of disparities in many different ways. Is it difficult when lawmakers are in charge of passing these maps to actually make any end roads on this issue?

Jerome Dillard:

Well, I feel that, no, there’s — they really don’t want to make any end roads. The fact of the matter is the census is taking every ten years. Say, for instance, if Im in McNulten or Fox Lake and doing a census year, during a year they take the census, I’ll remain on that count for the next ten years, although three months later, I get out, and I head back to Milwaukee or Madison or Racine. I am still counted as a resident for the next ten years of that county. So, no, you know, drawing the maps and everything is just another advantage. I think that’s another way of gerrymandering. The count on individuals incarcerated.

Marisa Wojcik:

Jerome, what does this mean for what we consider to be the cornerstone of democracy and a guiding principle of redrawing these maps where one person equals one vote? Do you believe that with the way maps are drawn and the census counts this information, that we are truly having one person equals one vote?

Jerome Dillard:

Oh, well, absolutely not. The fact of the matter is we even have people in our communities, again, who are tax paying citizens, who cannot vote. I think it’s been designed to impact our communities this way, and there’s no will to change things in our state. I mean, this is nothing new. You know, I can recall, you know, getting out of prison and spending five years in the community not feeling that I was a part of that community for the simple fact that I could not cast a ballot. That bothered me. And seeing individuals who are able to cast a ballot for the first time, how that rejuvenates them and feel they are a part of something. Oftentimes, we feel we are not a part of America because we have no say. We have no voting rights. We have no say in anything as far as representation goes, and I — it has to change. I feel that rehabilitation, being able to cast a ballot, getting your voting rights back, is a huge part of that rehabilitation, that reentry process. You know, I just feel that this is an uphill climb, but we’re going to continue to fight and demand that citizens get their rights to vote because we are citizens.

Marisa Wojcik:

Peggy, as Jerome mentioned earlier, other states have made moves to change this cycle. This has been a part of how the census counts people for a very, very long time. Is your organization looking to go the route of how other states have addressed this? What are the immediate steps that EXPO is looking to take?

Peggy West-Schroder:

We have legislation being drafted at the state level, and so we are definitely going to be pushing this. The other thing is we are doing a ton of education letting people know so they are aware of what is happening. A lot of people don’t realize that, you know, people are not counted in the districts that they live in, but instead they are being counted in other places, and so we want to make sure that people are aware of what’s happening and can support the legislation when it comes up. We’ll definitely continue. We have a governor’s election in 2022, and we’ll definitely continue having, you know, conversations with the powers that be to make sure that we do have fair maps in Wisconsin, and that we are able to hold onto representation in communities of color we all want to have representation that looks like us. In order to be able to do that, we have to fairly be counted people where they belong.

Marisa Wojcik:

All right. We need to leave it there, Jerome Dillard and Peggy West-Schroder, of Ex-Incarcerated People Organizing thank you both very, very much for joining us today.

Peggy West-Schroder:

Thank you.

Jerome Dillard:

Thank you for having us.

Marisa Wojcik:

For more from “Here & Now” and PBS Wisconsin, you can visit pbswisconsin.org/news, and thank you so much for joining us on “Noon Wednesday.”