Marisa Wojcik:

Welcome to Noon Wednesday. I’m Marisa Wojcik, a multimedia journalist with Here & Now on Wisconsin Public Television. So the idea of building a high speed rail line between Madison and Milwaukee came to a screeching halt years ago. And the topic was highly divisive and to this day people still can’t let it go. Two such people are reporters for Wisconsin Public Radio and they set out to make a whole podcast about it. So one of those people is Bridget Bowden and thanks so much for being here.

Bridget Bowden:

Thanks for having me.

Marisa Wojcik:

So it’s called De-Railed. And just a forewarning, you’re gonna hear a lot of train puns, which I already cleared it through Bridget. She’s definitely okay with that.

Bridget Bowden:

I am on board with the train puns.

Marisa Wojcik:

I just wanna ask where did the idea for this begin?

Bridget Bowden:

Yeah, so at Wisconsin Public Radio, we were looking for basically a good story to tell. We were looking to get into the world of limited run, documentary style podcasts, and so we asked ourselves what would be a good story, and we went through a whole list of options and we ended up with the story of the high-speed rail line which, as you know, doesn’t exist. And we thought it would be interesting because even 10 years later, it still gets people fired. People on both sides of the issue. People who thought that it would’ve been the future of transportation, and people who that that it was an expensive boondoggle. Even 10 years later today, when you ask them about this train, it really makes their blood boil.

Marisa Wojcik:

And what I love about this podcast is it’s really rich in all of these historical elements that are woven into the story. And so you go back nearly two decades especially in the first episode, but as you said today, it’s something that people are still harping on?

Bridget Bowden:

Right, so I think a lot of people who remember this happening, maybe people who lived here in Wisconsin when Scott Walker was first elected governor in 2010 remember sort of the ending of the story. They remember when the line was canceled. But what a lot of people don’t realize is this goes back all the way to the 90’s to the governorship of Republican Tommy Thompson, so that was surprising to me certainly, and it was fun to learn about how this story really happened over 20, 25 years.

Marisa Wojcik:

Sure. And as you said, your first deep dive, or your episode one Deep Dive goes back to 1999. And so why is republican, former republican governor Tommy Thompson a central figure to this story? Why does he kind of become the impetuous for the beginning?

Bridget Bowden:

Yeah, so Governor Tommy Thompson, he loved trains. I didn’t know that when I started working on this project, but it’s something that we discovered along the way. When he was growing up in Elroy, small town Elroy, Wisconsin he would see the trains come in and out, and he even told us a story about how when he was six years old, Harry Truman visited Elroy on a train and gave a speech. And so when he was governor in 1999, he gave a state of the state address where he talked about his big vision for a whole mid west rail network; the Midwest Rail Initiative. And he really set the plan for the train between Madison and Milwaukee into motion.

Marisa Wojcik:

And I really loved hearing you incorporating those old state of the state addresses because it plays him connecting through technology to different people, and really showed how he was trying to bring innovation to the state and you tied that to the trains, and I just love that. I really felt like I was taken back there even though I don’t personally remember it.

Bridget Bowden:

Yeah, I think it’ll really take you back to 1999 for sure.

Marisa Wojcik:

Yeah, absolutely. And so episode two came out today.

Bridget Bowden:

It did.

Marisa Wojcik:

And we fast forward a bit–

Bridget Bowden:

Yes.

Marisa Wojcik:

To 2008. So what happens in 2008?

Bridget Bowden:

So 2008 a lot of things happen in 2008. That is, first of all, the great recession was huge. We start off sort of looking at that, and then the election of Barack Obama, the stimulus bill coming together, and then Wisconsin getting money for a high-speed rail line from the stimulus. So this episode will take you through all of that.

Marisa Wojcik:

Awesome. And in a second, we’re gonna hear a clip from today’s episode, and, like I mentioned, this podcast really takes on a lot of these historical elements that you’re weaving into the story, and really brings us back to that point in time. And so we’re gonna listen to that clip right now.

Bridget Bowden:

How did the stimulus bill go from zero to eight billion dollars for high-speed rail practically overnight? Frank Busalacchi actually thinks he may have planted the seed. Remember that time Joe Biden gave him a shout out at the Cudahy fire department?

Joe Biden:

Frank, I promise you, when we get elected, you’re gonna have passenger rail coming through the mid west like it never came in before. I’m serious, it’s coming.

Marisa Wojcik:

So in this clip, you mention at the time Wisconsin’s Secretary of Transportation Frank Busalacchi, and we also hear from Joe Biden at the time he was on the campaign trail, and they both have something in common with former Governor Tommy Thompson.

Bridget Bowden:

They do.

Marisa Wojcik:

And that’s a love for trains.

Bridget Bowden:

Absolutely.

Marisa Wojcik:

And it just kinda seems like that’s a common theme, and that it was these key players that really kind of bring this idea slowly down the track in Wisconsin. Do we know, though, how much there was broad support? Or was it just these key players that were kind of making it all happen?

Bridget Bowden:

That’s a really good question. Certainly it’s been fun along our reporting to discover that there were those key figures both democrats and republicans who happen to love trains and that that did play a big factor. There definitely was support for this project from other people. We talked to politicians from Madison and Milwaukee who really supported the project. I mean, even just talking to people in Madison today, I think you’ll hear a lot of people who wish that this train did exist. But yeah, that is a really good question. Was it just a few people who loved trains? Who’s to say?

Marisa Wojcik:

Sure. And they just weren’t really looking at it from that side back then? But I guess reading kind of your, where you’re fast forwarding, then after that, in episode three, we do hear a little bit about what people are starting to decide about opinions about the train, right? We hear about the backlash.

Bridget Bowden:

Absolutely. So it’s impossible to tell the story of this train without really examining what republicans were saying at the time. In 2010, or between 2008 and 2010, you’ve got the rise of the Tea Party movement, the 2010 election was huge for republicans and that was when Scott Walker was first elected governor, and so episode three will take a look at what conservatives were saying about the train which is quite different than what you’ll hear in episode two.

Marisa Wojcik:

And how many episodes are we talking? I’ve heard a little bit from you as you’ve been working on this project for a while. You yourself have traveled to quite few places. What can we expect to see in the coming episodes?

Bridget Bowden:

So it’ll be probably six episodes in total, all in all. And yeah, not only will we sort of take you through the whole history of the train from its beginnings in the 90’s to its endings in 2010, 2011, but will also go into where did that money go? We gave 810 million dollars back to the federal government and I actually went out to California to see their high-speed rail line ’cause that’s one of the places that, in theory, our money was redistributed to. We also will go into the deal that the state of Wisconsin had with the Spanish train manufacturer, Talgo. We had a contract with them that was breached and then a lawsuit was settled. But there were some trains built, so we will follow those trains and show you where they are now.

Marisa Wojcik:

And from what I heard, there’s a good bit about your investigation in finding those trains, so that should be pretty exciting as you track those down.

Bridget Bowden:

Yeahh, you’ll have to listen to find out where they are.

Marisa Wojcik:

Sure, sure, sure. And it sounds like part of your exploration of this topic is because it’s a commentary on how Wisconsin politics changed, but within the scope of kind of looking at it through the train vision. What have you kind of come to learn about Wisconsin politics and how it’s changed, and maybe how people still view this issue today?

Bridget Bowden:

Yeah, so one of the reasons we wanted to tell this story is because we thought it would be a good lens to look at how Wisconsin has changed. Part of that has to do with how the country’s politics have changed. You know, in the last 25 years, politics have become very divisive, and so this story of the train even though it’s just about this one little thing sort of gets at some of those larger themes of where were we 20 years ago and where are we now?

Marisa Wojcik:

Do you foresee, cause it kinda follows a track of 20 years ago, 10 years ago, now today, do we see this resurfacing again?

Bridget Bowden:

That’s a good question.

Marisa Wojcik:

Are people at all saying like I think we can still make this happen?

Bridget Bowden:

Yeah, there are people who definitely hope that it could happen someday. But there are also people who are working on other plans. I know that right now there’s a group that is trying to add a second daily Amtrack line through Wisconsin. So I mean, who’s to say if this exact line between Madison and Milwaukee could ever happen again? But I think there are definitely people who are still interested in passenger rail through Wisconsin.

Marisa Wojcik:

And just the thing that immediately came to mind as you’re kind of going back and looking at this is just that idea of Madison and Milwaukee can sometimes be pain points for people who are in every other part of the state because it’s not just about Madison and Milwaukee. So especially kind of where we are in our current political situation, it definitely has a similar reflection back as to where our politics were then and where they are kinda still currently.

Bridget Bowden:

That was huge. When we talk about what conservatives were saying about this project back then, the fact that all of this money from the federal government was pretty much only gonna go to Madison and Milwaukee, there were people who did not like that, and that was a big sort of talking point against the train project back in 2010.

Marisa Wojcik:

What’s been the most surprising thing to you in your reporting?

Bridget Bowden:

Yeah, so I didn’t live here when all of this happened. But my co-host Shawn Johnson, he did. And he actually covered all of this for Wisconsin Public Radio. So for me personally, being really new to all of this, it’s been interesting and surprising to learn just how far back it goes. I had no idea that this started before 2010, before Scott Walker. All the way back–

Marisa Wojcik:

With a republican.

Bridget Bowden:

With a republican, that was surprising to me. But yeah, we’ve kind of discovered that right now you think of trains, passenger trains, public transportation as sort of a partisan issue. One thing we’ve discovered is that it hasn’t always been like that.

Marisa Wojcik:

Well, if people want to listen to the episodes, and there’s also photos and online article, there’s tons of resources at wpr.org/derailed. And for more from Here & Now, and Wisconsin Public Television, you can visit wpt.org and thank you so much for joining us on Noon Wednesday.