Here & Now

Noon Wednesday: How a Protester Defines Peace

Marisa Wojcik:

Welcome to Noon Wednesday. I’m Marisa Wojcik, multimedia journalist with Here & Now on PBS Wisconsin. The nation is reeling from the killing of George Floyd at the hands of a Minneapolis police officer. This past week, protests and demonstrations have been seen all across the country and in cities all across Wisconsin. Peaceful, violent, and many other words have been used to describe these protests. Joining me today is one of the organizers of the protests that have been happening daily in Madison, Brandi Grayson. She is also the founder and CEO of Urban Triage, an organization dedicated to black excellence through education and community engagement. Brandi, thank you so much for joining us.

Brandi Grayson:

Thank you for having me.

Marisa Wojcik:

Can you describe for us what this past week of protests at the state’s Capitol has looked like and sounded like to you?

Brandi Grayson:

The protests have been very powerful in the sense that it’s cross generational. Cross generational, cross races, cross ideology, right? Like it’s just a mixture of beautiful, brilliant people who are really fed up with the systemic oppression, right? Really fed up with white supremacy and the killing of black bodies without justice. And I think when George Floyd was murdered on camera following the death of Ahmaud who was chased down by KKK supremacists, it was just enough, right? And with the mixture of COVID, people being isolated and just being tired of being just oppressed and having their rights taken away from them. So what I’ve seen on the ground is really white people in Madison, Wisconsin have showed up. We have in our protests on, we started on Saturday. We had approximately 4,000 people that we led in protest and marched, marching for like three or four hours on Saturday, and then we came back on Monday and we had a good 2,000 people when we finished. And in the protest on Monday, we literally shut down John Nolen. We marched with 1,500 to 2,000 people, went to John Nolen, we danced, we took over the major intersection at John Nolen and North Shore Drive. It was really a feeling of community, right? And this sense of we are in this together, and we will be the ones that save us and protect us. And we must keep going until our voices are heard and real action is taken. And for us in Madison, Wisconsin, real action looks like defunding our jail, our police department, investing in people, investing in our children, investing in youth. And one of the other demands is firing Matt Kenny, who currently is a police officer with Madison Police Department, who murdered Tony Robinson in 2015, shot him seven times. So we are asking that there be real actions taken as it relates to the violence inflicted on human bodies. And what we’ve been witnessing is community. Community showing up to support our youth. So yeah, it’s been powerful.

Marisa Wojcik:

And I did want to ask you about your demands. Your organization, along with Freedom, Inc. and the Party for Socialism and Liberation have made this list of demands. Are these demands in line generally with what others are calling for across the country?

Brandi Grayson:

Yes. It’s in line with the black movement, Movement for Black Lives, defunding the police, reparations for black people, and really building resources for the black community. And with the understanding that when we get to the point where we are uplifting black people and we are supporting black people with opportunity, resources, and justice, then everyone is liberated, right? Like everyone’s liberation is bound in the liberation of black people as a result of the context of our existence, which is white supremacy patriarchal capitalism. If we’re not focusing on the most vulnerable, the most marginalized, the most disenfranchised as a result of this hierarchy created with none of our permission, right? We didn’t give permission for this. And if we’re not focusing on that specific intersection, then we’re missing out as it relates to dismantling this oppressive, destructive, violent system.

Marisa Wojcik:

Who specifically are these demands meant for? The mayor, the governor, the police chief?

Brandi Grayson:

Defunding the police is directly meant for our mayor, right? She has control and the city council has control on how funds are allocated to our police department and how much. And what we do know is our police department specifically has one of the largest budgets in our city, right? They’re funded more than our public education is, right? In terms of like, firing Matt Kenny, that is a demand specifically in Madison, Wisconsin for our Police and Fire Commission. ‘Cause they have the power to hire and fire police. And what we’re also demanding is community control over police. We need community review boards to have the same power as the Police and Fire Commission. And that power can be granted to community members through our city council and through the Police and Fire Commission. So in Madison, the recommendation for the oversight committee has been approved by the city council, but as it’s went through the bureaucracy and the process, it’s losing power, right? It’s turning into something superficial led by the police department. So we have some work to do around that. And it– another one of our demand is Free Them All. So Free Them All means all black people currently locked up in Dane County Jail. And that responsibility and power specifically falls on our Dane County Executive, right, Dane County Executive Joe Parisi and our sheriff. So they have the power to let people out. And what we know is when COVID hit, they did let people out, right? And so we know that they can, if they really are– if they really are interested in justice and a fair system.

Marisa Wojcik:

What has been the response from elected officials of these demands?

Brandi Grayson:

Well, our mayor, Mayor Satya, our Madison, Wisconsin mayor came out to our protest on Monday, and we did allow her to speak to the crowd. And it ended up not being too good, to be honest. ‘Cause another demand that came out of the youth being present at the protest was lift curfew, ’cause that was one of the things that they enforced immediately when the protests started. And she said that she could not do that. And then another demand was to defund the police. And she said, “I don’t know what we can do around that,” right? So it’s kind of like political talk, the runaround, “Please, I’m here for you,” but not really giving tangible, actionable steps that they’re willing to take. We had the police chief in Madison come out with another community leader, I believe Michael Johnson, the CEO of the Boys and Girls Club, offering to protest and kneel with the protestors. And our response to that and our youth response to that is that that is damaging. That is abuse of power because basically you’re symbolizing… A good example I think of it, comparison would be a abusive relationship. Someone hits you, they hurt you, and they come back with flowers to say “I’m sorry,” but not making real, tangible actions, steps to not hurt you again. It’s manipulation and it’s gaslighting. And we’re saying we’re not going to stand for it, and if you’re for the people, we need tangible actions that equate your understanding and acceptance and alignment that all black lives matter.

Marisa Wojcik:

Are there recommendations from your organizations on what the alternative would be if you did defund the police, if you did release people from Dane County Jail? Are there recommendations as to how that would be handled or is that still yet to come?

Brandi Grayson:

Well, I think in terms of the recommendations, we need to figure that out as a community, but the one thing we know for sure is when you have resources for people, when you have– property leads to crimes, right? It goes hand in hand, it’s not separate. And when you have people desperate to live, when you have people surviving in poverty, then you get people desperate, right? And in desperation, you do desperate things. So when we’re thinking about how to switch our paradigm and operating from a human place, we need to fund things that support that. Fund mental wellness, fund counseling, fund education, fund job opportunities, fund real, affordable housing. There’s affordable housing going up everywhere in Madison, and no one can afford it, right? [laughing] The cheapest rent on affordable housing is $1,300 or $1,400. So if we really want to paradigm shift and create a society and a reality rooted in humanness and human beingness, then we just need to take the risk and radical steps. Pull money out, put it in something else that really wraps around holistically our people who are surviving poverty, starting with economic development and mental wellness.

Marisa Wojcik:

Going back to the protests a little bit, your organizations issued a joint press release saying black youth are criminalized, and yet the media is holding up your protests as an example of peace. Can you explain what that means and why that is problematic to you?

Brandi Grayson:

It’s problematic because when Tony Robinson was murdered in 2015, we marched, we protested. We protested for months demanding justice for Tony Robinson, calling for our city officials, the Police and Fire Commission, the chief of police, to fire Matt Kenny and to charge him. And calling for our District Attorney Ozanne to do the same thing. And in those protests, we were– The narrative around our protest was violent, agitators. Really, like y’know, we were described like our youth are being described right now. But now that we have this rebellion breaking out across our country, now the conversation is moving like, “This is the thing to be.” But when we were that and still, y’know, we were criminalized. We were seen as violent. I was violently arrested. Y’know, I was violently harassed by police, by tickets, they were sitting in front of my house, following me, pulling me over at every juncture, so the idea that the media can think it’s– The media gets to frame the narrative around what constitutes violence. And now the narrative has switched off of what people are protesting about, the violence, the abuse of power, you know, demonstrated through police departments throughout our nation. And now it’s like, “Oh, let’s not talk about why “people are upset. “Let’s focus on the rage.” And the thing that people don’t understand is existing in white supremacy patriarchal capitalism is oppressive, it’s violent, it’s traumatic. And to be black in America is to be outraged all the time. And we have failed our youth. We have failed them on so many levels. They are looking for self-expression, they are looking for help, they are looking for support, they are looking for love, and the last thing we are going to allow the media and anybody else to do is to use our organization and our protests to just suppose against them and say, “This is the right thing to do “and this is the wrong thing to do.” Because at the end of the day, no matter what we do, when we kneel, when we were kneeling, folks said it was violent and unpatriotic. So as it relates to protesting, anti-oppression and anti-white supremacy, it really doesn’t matter because white supremacy is so insidious, if we stand in peace and silent, we will be defined as violent. So don’t use our organizations to criminalize, commodify, or dehumanize black youth. We’re not having it.

Marisa Wojcik:

Your press release also specifically described what peace means to you. How do you describe peace?

Brandi Grayson:

Peace is the ability to self-actualize without having to fit in someone else’s social construct as it relates to what’s right, what’s wrong, what’s okay, what’s not. Peace, peace is when black people can go and apply for a job without being judged by their skin but more so, like Martin Luther King, their character and their credentials, right? Peace is when a police officer sees us as the same way they see white folks, right? Peace is when a 13-year-old boy in New York yesterday was murdered, he had a gun in his hand, and he was shot 19 times by New York Police. When we’ve seen white men, white killers tear up churches, shoot up schools, and walk away without being murdered. Peace is when we’re offered the same consideration as white folks, right? Peace is when we no longer have a system of white supremacy patriarchal capitalism sucking and choking the life out of black children and black people. Peace is when we have access to the same academic opportunities and resources and housing. Peace is when we have a piece of the pie, right? That is peace. Not this idea that in the face of injustice, in the face of destruction that we have to continue to sit passively and allow it, right? The looting, what they describe as the looting and the vandalism of property, that all can be replaced, right? And that all is the foundation of white supremacy. This idea that materialism and capitalism and property is more valuable than black life. And we just not having it no more. And if you want peace, then give us peace. Give us justice. Give us– fire Matt Kenny specifically in Madison, Wisconsin. Prosecute him, defund the jail.

Marisa Wojcik:

You brought up vandalism. There are of course many opinions on the destruction of property that has come from protests across the country. Your response was, quote, “Our organizations will not denounce “any black person’s display of grief and/or rage.” What about those who are white and engaging in vandalism in the name of this movement and might not even fully understand what’s going on? They’re kind of just going with the crowd?

Brandi Grayson:

Well, let’s just be clear that white vandalisms, generally speaking, are not going with the crowd. They’re actually, some of the folks are agitators. They’re actually leading the crowd in a sense, right? They’re showing up breaking windows, and if you know anything about group mentality, when the energy switch, it’s automatic. Like we’re human beings, we’re connected to each other energetically, we just are. So it’s not like black youth are down there doing something and these white folks are following. That’s not what’s happening. What’s happening is some white folks are showing up breaking property, looting, breaking the windows, and there’s black youth standing in the way, in front of the building, saying, “No, we are here to protest. “We are here to demand justice.” There are black people, black adults putting their bodies on the line for property that don’t belong to them, for stores that wouldn’t even serve them, that will follow them around in the store, exploit them, right? So there’s a lot of different dynamics that’s really complicated happening, right? We have people showing up from rural areas with guns and bulletproof vests on, running around, shouting out the N-word, throwing rocks at youth and protestors, threatening to shoot up. At our protest on Monday, we had two white men show up with guns, right? And we had to put our bodies between them and the protestors. And so the irony of all of this is that the focus is on youth, and this narrative that the media loves to create about black people and black youth to uphold the narrative of white supremacy. That black people are inferior, we’re criminals and we’re animals and we don’t know how to peacefully do something. And that’s just not the case. There’s a lot of different groups showing up downtown for the protests, and most importantly, there’s violent white people showing up that’s engaging in brutality against black people and black youth as we march saying “Justice for All” and “We are in this together,” including in our caravan protest yesterday, when a white guy driving a big cement truck ran one of our cars off the road very purposefully and we have it on film, right? And the police response is, “Oh, well. “There’s the ticket.” We had another white lady on Saturday when we marched to the place where Tony Robinson was murdered, run over someone on a bike. And then our youth, our black youth surrounded the car and said “Hey, you can’t go anywhere,” and she ran them over. That’s violence, right? And I don’t see the media picking up on those stories. I don’t see the media showing the KKK driving around in pickup trucks with no license plates on with their rifles in their cars and their bulletproof vests. That’s violence.

Marisa Wojcik:

I was going to ask you, do you feel like your protests and your messages are being heard? Are you concerned that your message is getting lost amidst daily reports of crowd size or reports on just the vandalism?

Brandi Grayson:

Well you know, the thing about media in general, generally speaking of course, I’m not going to say PBS, [laughing] but generally speaking, the media is anti-black. So it’s expected, right? Because when we had our press conference, we had tons of conversations around humanness, oneness, and the sound bites that were included in like, the three different media outlets, the sound bites was edited in a way that aligned with this anti-white stance, like anti-liberal stance. And just to be clear, we are against racism. We are against systemic oppression of all human beings. And we are centering black voices because black voices are at the bottom of this hierarchy created through white supremacy. And let’s be clear, that white supremacy racism doesn’t have a color. White supremacy racism is a mentality embodied by all of us, whether we’re black, white, or brown, in between. We all embody it; we can’t help it. We breathe it, we eat it, we live it. So the narrative created through the media is expected. But the people that are looking for justice, the people who are looking for an answer continue to show up, and our followers continue to grow. So whether the media think that they can spin it, we still are going to have hundreds of people downtown tonight supporting our youth, right? We will not allow the media to silence the narrative in demanding justice for black people across the nation. And that we will continue to mobilize, organize, plot, plan, and strategize in the words of Mike… what is his name? Oh my god, I can’t remember his name.

Marisa Wojcik:

Killer Mike?

Brandi Grayson:

Yeah, there you go, thank you for that, yes! [laughing] Yes, thank you!

Marisa Wojcik:

The police have come out to these protests. The governor also activated the National Guard in response. What has been the interaction with protestors, law enforcement, and the National Guard been like in Madison?

Brandi Grayson:

Pretty challenging. So as soon as the police show up on the scene, [child talking in background] in riot gear, it escalates immediately, right? There’s this– because the people that are out there are protesting because of the behavior of police, right? So imagine your abuser showing up, you crying, you’re expressing yourself, you’re screaming for love and justice, and then here comes your abuser, right? Showing up in, with military gear on, right? Which heightens the situation, it doesn’t make it any better. And then as folks are shouting at the police and standing fearlessly in front of all this military gear, what happens is they say, “You need to disperse immediately.” And then what happens next? Tear gas happens. Rubber bullets happen. And then you have them reporting back to the media, “Oh, we’re not using rubber bullets.” But we have medics treating people that have been hit with rubber bullets, right? So of course in this dynamic of white supremacy patriarchal capitalism, there is this narrative created that throwing rocks is violent, throwing bottles is violent, showing up with rifles and AR-15s, whatever they carry and these big shields, and tear gas launchers like we’re in a war zone, it’s ridiculous, right? There’s no hand being reached, there’s no– by the governor, by the mayor, by the police department, by the city council, by the aldermans, they continue to make decisions that are literally throwing gas into the fire, right? And eventually it’s going to erupt. And people are going to get hurt. So the conversation really is the key piece, and to move to a place of peace and understanding, then they have to give something. They have to be willing to take a real, hard stance and the first thing they can do in Madison specifically is fire Matt Kenny. Like this man has murdered multiple people in Madison, and there’s no justice. So why do they think that they can show up in military or disperse the National Guard throughout our country and it’s going to do anything. Has it done anything? It has done nothing but cause more pain, more violence. And the violence is being done by the police on the people. And we have elders standing between the youth and the police trying to protect the youth, and the police and the National Guard are hurting the elders. So we have medics carrying out elder people because they’re out there thinking that they can talk sense to the police. Thinking, ’cause there’s people that still think that you can engage in a regular conversation, in a logical conversation with the police. Like “Come on, let the kids just express themselves. “They’re not doing anything.” And at that moment, here comes the police force pushing forward, putting up gates, trying to cage people. And when you cage people, just like any mammal, then there’s going to be an emotional, heightened response to being caged, right? So we really need to think about the depth and breadth of white supremacy, and how it shows up in our police force, and militarization of our police.

Marisa Wojcik:

With some of these things that you say have happened but aren’t being covered in the media, with social media, do you feel like there is an opportunity, I mean, George Floyd’s death was captured on video and some are saying that if it wasn’t, it wouldn’t have been believed. Do you feel like your message is still getting across through social media even if it’s not coming through mainstream media?

Brandi Grayson:

Absolutely, absolutely. I think people who are waking up and are more aware know that you can’t depend on the media for real-life coverage or a real narrative because it’s always framed and twisted based on what they’re trying to communicate, right? And what they’re trying to communicate is based in white supremacy. The media always shows, and this is not sometimes, but always shows black people as criminals. Like we can go back to Katrina when we had white people in the same waters, the same flood as black people, and you would read the headlines, “Survivors of Katrina Scavenge to Find Resources “During the Storm.” And you would see the same black people– See the black people in the same water, and the headings would read, “Criminals Looting and Rioting,” you know what I mean? We’re in the same damn body– excuse my language, we’re in the same body of water, and yet there’s a different perception and framing according to the color of our skin. And that is the media in action. And they are, just like the police, the are the narrative shapers of white supremacy. They literally make sure that whatever needs to happen to uphold this hierarchy continues to happen. So people who don’t have contact with real-life black people, or know the pain and hurt of existing in oppression and white supremacy, that’s all they have to go on, right? Like rural white people who don’t have access to anything else but the news, right? And don’t have access to people that exist outside their little circles, so they believe it. They believe that black people are criminals and less than, and then you have people who are like, “Wait, something’s up with this.” And they search and they find and they show up. And maybe they don’t have all the answers, but then they start learning for being present. So I encourage everybody to start getting present outside of the media and the narrative that’s shaped by the media.

Marisa Wojcik:

Where do you see things going? What do you think the outcome of these protests will be, or do you foresee yourself protesting every day for weeks and months to come?

Brandi Grayson:

You know, that’s a hard question. That’s totally up to those in power. It’s totally up to our federal government, our local police departments, our local mayors, our local Dane County executive, our sheriffs. If folks want this to end, then there has to be some changes. I don’t see it stopping until some real, actionable steps happen. This is historical. There is a revolution happening and taking place across our country. I don’t see it ending, I see it increasing until real, actionable steps are taken to end the violence against black bodies at the hands of our police state. And again, our people in charge that have power, they have the power to end this at any moment. So the question really isn’t when the protestors are going to stop, the question is when are those in charge and in power going to start doing things to protect black bodies?

Marisa Wojcik:

All right, Brandi Grayson, thank you so much for joining us.

Brandi Grayson:

You’re welcome, thank you.