Here & Now

Noon Wednesday with guest Mike Parsen

Marisa Wojcik:

Welcome to Noon Wednesday, I’m Marisa Wojcik, a multimedia with Here & Now on Wisconsin Public Television. Wisconsin is continuing to swell with water. And there are some stretches where we think we’re in the clear but we kind of are still seeing a lot of flooding. So joining us today to talk about what’s happening underneath the surface of the ground is Mike Parsen. He’s a hydrogeologist with the Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey and Mike, thanks so much for being here.

Mike Parsen:

Thank you, it’s a pleasure.

Marisa Wojcik:

I keep hearing people say if we can just get through today we’ll be in the clear, is that true?

Mike Parsen:

Well, it is and it isn’t. Like a lot of these things, there’s what we see and there’s also what’s out of sight. The reality today unfortunately is a lot of homeowners and people across the state are dealing with the immediate aftermath and continuation of flooding from high frequency precipitation events. So a lot of rainfall, short periods of time. Five, 10, 15 inch events within a matter of hours in some instances. So those are things where people are responding immediately, sand bagging, trying to make sure that their basements are clear. Keeping vehicles, valuables and their family and loved ones out of harm’s way. From a groundwater perspective though, the challenge is that over time, the groundwater system, the aquifers are beginning to rise too. Those rise more slowly but they can lead to longer term flooding events and essentially you’re kind of maintaining elevated water tables and surface water systems. Here going in to the fall and even thinking out to 2019 there’s a potential to create risks in the spring as we have snow melt and things like that picking up. Hopefully we can wrap up some of these issues immediately in the coming weeks and months here. But you do sort of stay tuned for future impacts as well.

Marisa Wojcik:

So there is a difference or a relationship between flooding and groundwater and water table levels?

Mike Parsen:

I think an important thing to understand just to back up and realize is that surface water and groundwater are connected. We tend to think of water that we see in the lakes and rivers and streams or springs we may know or wetlands. We tend not to think about where the aquifers are. Where is the groundwater system located? It’s sort of out of sight, out of mind and our real only window into that system is through drilling wells or springs that we may see in the land surface. But in reality, most of the water features, surface water features in the state of Wisconsin are connected intimately to the groundwater system. And there’s obviously a connection between those.

Marisa Wojcik:

So how does groundwater contribute to the bigger picture of water flowage?

Mike Parsen:

Yes so water flowage in Wisconsin, you can think of it within watersheds. So a lot of these rivers that we know, the Wisconsin, the Chippewa, the Sugar, the Pecatonica, the Rock River, the Fox, other rivers across the state. There’s a basin that’s collecting water. If you think of runoff flow and contributing over land to a river system, that’s typically what we see in a flash flood event. But as water percolates down, you know to the 30 to 40 inches of rainfall a year of precipitation we receive in Wisconsin, a good chunk of that infiltrates down into the groundwater system. And that’s sort of creating a steady flow of groundwater to these surface water features.

Marisa Wojcik:

So when the rain water retreats, the flood waters themselves go down. The earth underneath is still saturated.

Mike Parsen:

Exactly, and the water tables remain elevated. That’s essentially like draining a sponge. It soaks up water and to let it drain out it take more time.

Marisa Wojcik:

How long does it take?

Mike Parsen:

It can take months to years, depending on the aquifer system and the amount of water in them. It’s not uncharacteristic too to have several events stacking up on top of one another. So we’re having a fairly wet summer. Fall, if we have continued wet spells, a lot of snowfall into the winter, a wet spring. You just continue to stack up and to raise water tables. Which can just lead to a longer period where the flood waters are dissipating.

Marisa Wojcik:

All of that saturation, are there issues that come when the water is saturating the ground so much?

Mike Parsen:

There are, I mean again a lot of times, risk has to do with the exposure of an event that can create that risk. But also the proximity of people to that. Or other valuables that may be in harm’s way. So by all means, people are now experiencing this with basement flooding. We’re seeing in some instances trees that are beginning to over top just because the roots are now in a saturated soil system. A lot of times they’re essentially being deprived of oxygen in some instances and could begin to tip over in a storm event. We’re seeing railway lines being undermined. Roadways being undermined, things like that that are of great concern just for the infrastructure that we have and for people’s personal possessions and property.

Marisa Wojcik:

And so those are kind of long term effects of after the rain is gone, there’s still going to be days, weeks, and months that we see issues crop up?

Mike Parsen:

Issues that crop up and also the cost. I think that’s something we’re beginning to see more and more. People talk sometimes in an abstract way about climate change and we’re now beginning to see some of these impacts from the duration of these storm events, the frequency. And I think it’s becoming hard to argue that we’re not seeing these events occur and that they are not characteristic of what we’ve seen over the past several hundred years.

Marisa Wojcik:

Can we look at these patterns and say okay we’re going to develop this land differently. We’re going to build differently. We’re going to build in different places?

Mike Parsen:

Those are big conversations. Many of them have been ongoing, especially in Dane County and other parts of the state. Land use decisions. Where do we want to develop? What are areas that can serve as buffers to receiving some of these flood waters or elevated water table levels? We see this in farm fields, we see this in urban areas. And I think more and more there’s going to be discussions that have to happen just based on the economics and the safety for people to think about areas that should be developed. Areas that are marginal and maybe shouldn’t. And those are tough decisions. Because there’s money at stake and there’s people’s livelihoods at stake as well but as we’re seeing now, we start having loss of life and property from flooding, it’s a matter of trying to find a balance with that.

Marisa Wojcik:

For people that are having their basements flooded or if they are worried about access to clean water, what are some immediate issues that with these high water table levels that people are experiencing.

Mike Parsen:

The thing is I would recommend and, myself living on the east side of Madison, in and around some of these flood waters. We’re thinking about this too. Is just making sure I think first and foremost that your family is safe. If you’re in some type of a flood plain or area that’s immediately at risk, to seek safety and to also have precaution while driving or going out, trying to avoid, this wouldn’t be the best time to go kayaking or trying to bike through some of these flood waters as I’ve seen people do. But secondly I think it would be making sure that you have a clean, safe source for drinking water.

Marisa Wojcik:

Do you have to worry about that in this city?

Mike Parsen:

Typically not because the city, the water utilities are managing those systems and testing those systems.

Marisa Wojcik:

Who has to worry about those?

Mike Parsen:

It’s more of an issue I think in situations where you have private well owners in rural areas around the outskirts of town. You know there’s some of the issues that could come up are the water tables rising actually over topping and flowing vertically down into the well shaft. There are also instances if you have a shallow casing, so that’s the protective steel wall of the well. If that’s relatively shallow, you can begin to have water come up and then short circuit and go into the well and introduce surficial contaminants into the well. So those are all things to think about.

Marisa Wojcik:

If I have a basement that floods every single time this happens, is there any hope that my basement is going to quit flooding?

Mike Parsen:

Well, probably not. I mean the short answer is probably not. I think a lot of people are having questions about finishing basements. In our basement, it’s not finished and we sort of use it as the first point of evaluation. I’ll go down there with a flashlight and look for water that’s coming in. Recommendations to try to plug floor drains or basement sink drains would be good ideas. And a lot of times it gets down to what extent can we fight Mother Nature? These become points in human history where it becomes difficult to do that. And that’s not new to other parts of this country or the world. But we’re seeing some of this now play out more and more across Wisconsin.

Marisa Wojcik:

And so if we want to live near water, we’re going to have to deal with water.

Mike Parsen:

There’s a certain level of learning to live with it, learning to adapt. Also thinking up front proactively about development, sort of from a societal level. If you think about land use decisions and things like that. And also the levels that we’re maintaining lakes at. That’s some of those things there’s been talk of that. I think those are all things for consideration that we’re going to have to keep thinking about and trying to improve.

Marisa Wojcik:

All right, well, Mike, thanks so much for joining us.

Mike Parsen:

Yeah, thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

Marisa Wojcik:

If you want to hear more from Here & Now and Wisconsin Public Television, visit wpt.org and thanks for joining us on Noon Wednesday.