Marisa Wojcik:

Welcome to Noon Wednesday. I’m Marisa Wojcik, multimedia journalist with Here & Now on PBS Wisconsin. As protests over police brutality and systemic racism continue across the country, state and local leaders are grappling with how to address the needs of their own communities. Today, we speak with a native of Milwaukee. He was a community organizer, a state representative, and he is now second-in-command under Governor Tony Evers. Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes joins us to talk about his vision for Wisconsin and thank you so much for being here.

Mandela Barnes:

Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about these very critical issues as they relate to our state and our nation. Thanks for having me.

Marisa Wojcik:

You’ve said, “With so far to go, it’s not about taking baby steps, it’s about taking as many steps as possible.” Does that mean abolishing or defunding police departments?

Mandela Barnes:

That means taking a look around at society and asking, “How did we get here?” It’s about looking at priorities of city budgets. I can say, you know, in my hometown of Milwaukee, the police budget has exceeded the entire property tax levy for five consecutive years. I can say that 45% of all departmental allocations go towards the police department in the city of Milwaukee while libraries get about 3%. Neighborhood services get about 2 to 3%. And that sort of dichotomy when it comes to funding can’t be sustainable. Three out of the top five City of Milwaukee paid employees in 2018 were police officers. We’re talking about $100,000 in overtime in some instances. And we can all agree that police work is stressful, but to work that hard, that many hours of overtime creates even more stress, and it’s kind of hard to question– or kind of hard to think about how somebody can be as– how somebody can carry out the job duties as responsibly as they should working that much overtime.

Marisa Wojcik:

So, but do you agree that police budgets should be maybe completely done away with, or defunded?

Mandela Barnes:

Not completely done away with. We need to invest more in neighborhood services and programming for our residents, for our communities on the front end. Where will that money come from? Well, it can come from over bloated budgets in police departments, you know? And that reality is possible, the more we– The same way I look at criminal justice reform. The more money we invest on the front end, because we spend over a billion dollars to put people in prison. The more money we invest in opportunity for people, the less money we have to spend on prisons. The same way the more money we invest in communities, the more opportunity we offer to residents in all parts of our state, the less money we’ll have to spend on police work. And this isn’t about, y’know, beating up on police officers. This is about recognizing the moment that we’re in and recognizing the needs that exist. And it’s also about expecting a high quality of performance from the people who are sworn to protect and serve. And if we offer more opportunities for people in communities, that in turn makes their job that much easier. And it’s also unrealistic to expect police officers to play the role of social worker, to play the role of mental health professional. In so many instances, they are called into those situations where their expertise does not offer them the opportunity to reasonably resolve that situation. And we see things end up becoming much worse. So if we put more money into mental health services for people, for social services for people, to be able to respond to those instances. We will all be much better off and more safe. And we want to promote stronger community relationships with police officers. And that starts with trust.

Marisa Wojcik:

Last week, we spoke with State Senator Van Wanggaard as well as the Green Bay Police Chief Andrew Smith, and they both spoke to training and standards that are already in place to protect life. Why do these existing codes of conduct not go far enough?

Mandela Barnes:

Well, the examples are already out there. I mean, you look at some of the most basic measures of reform, that could and should be implemented, and you realize like, how are they not trained to do this initially? How is this not part of core curriculum of becoming a police officer? Like intervention from officers who are there. The three officers who were on the scene when George Floyd was murdered, when Derek Chauvin had his knee on the neck of George Floyd for almost nine minutes. The officers were able to stand there idly by. None of them stepping in to say “Hey, that’s enough.” Or also y’know, use of force, banning chokeholds and strangleholds, these are very basic things. And you come to find out that these aren’t the measures that are implemented by police departments. And I think it’s unrealistic to expect another layer of training for police officers. Like I said, when it comes to mental health services or y’know, the work of social workers that is much needed, that is much more needed. So we have to question like okay, how can we expect any one person to perform all these functions in a way that’s effective? And it’s not necessarily effective. And if the training that’s in place already, if that did work, we wouldn’t see the instances that we do see. We wouldn’t have y’know, police brutality cases and city governments across the country dishing out millions of dollars in police misconduct settlements. Which is another part. You can include that in the budgets for police departments because cities are pumping out millions of dollars every year to resolve police misconduct cases.

Marisa Wojcik:

What about implicit bias trainings?

Mandela Barnes:

Mm-hmm, well, that’s the thing. You should expect that. You should think, you should assume, or you would want to assume that implicit bias is not a part of policing. But it is, and y’know, there’s a bill right now in Congress that would give district– excuse me, attorneys general across the country the authority to investigate discrimination-based policing, right? And a lot of people come into the profession unfortunately for the wrong reasons. You look at the show COPS being canceled. It’s been running for 33 years now. And y’know, a lot of people grew up playing cops and robbers, watching police action movies or watching COPS and figured they’d want to go into the profession. I grew up, I watched sports growing up, I wanted to play football growing up. You know, we see these things on TV, but then you get into the profession and realize that it is not as action-packed or glamorous as these TV shows make it out to be. It’s not as fun as playing cops and robbers with your friend because you’re dealing with real lives and real people and there are real consequences. Unfortunately, many times when there’s misconduct there are no consequences, which is another problem, which is the main problem that we’re dealing with. But you still see a lot of people who want to live out this fantasy from childhood and it’s just not that way. And we have to completely rethink what police work should look like in America. And y’know, understanding that some need exists, of course. However, police work hasn’t necessarily evolved with the times.

Marisa Wojcik:

What sort of police reform legislation are you looking at introducing, and will these legislative reforms go far enough? Or are they just the beginning?

Mandela Barnes:

We don’t introduce the laws, but as y’know, as a state rep, I was one of the co-sponsors of one of the accountability bills, of course didn’t go far enough, and that’s the thing about not taking baby steps, it’s about taking all the steps at every level. We need local, state, and federal intervention right now, but most importantly, we need police departments across the country to look within and y’know realize, accept and understand the flaws that exist right now. You know, there’s accountability, but people have to take that accountability. People have to be able to understand constructive criticism and think about what they can do better. But one of the bills right now that we’ve been talking about is Senator LaTonya Johnson and Representative Chris Taylor’s use of force bill. And y’know, will that, is that the only thing we need? Of course not. There are lots of things we need. There are so many things. And there’s the police side of it, then there’s the community side of it too. On Twitter yesterday I talked about the blueprint for peace that Reggie Moore in the Milwaukee Office of Violence Prevention has been working on. And there are a number of well-studied facts, statistics that can show you what investment in family and neighborhood services, what that could actually mean for some of our neighborhoods that are struggling the most, and how that is proven to help reduce crime. So y’know, there’s not a one thing, and there’s nothing that’s going to go far enough, but we have to be effective at every angle. We need to take a look at all the ways that we can create true, that we can craft true justice.

Marisa Wojcik:

You mentioned the use of force bill. Senator Wanggaard told us last week that he was critical, saying “Whether or not a black man was on the ground “or a white man was on the ground, “this legislation wouldn’t have made any difference. “What this officer did was absolutely horrendous “and he should be charged.” What is your response to that?

Mandela Barnes:

Well yeah, that just acknowledges one instance. Y’know, there are countless other instances all across America, and Wisconsin is not immune to that either. And I would like to ask Senator Wanggaard, who I have a cordial relationship with, I would ask him, y’know, “Well, what do we do?” Do we let things continue the way they’ve been going? Because that has been proven to be much, much, much less effective than doing nothing. And I get it, he’s a former law enforcement officer. And I understand how they could feel like they’re being, y’know, attacked, but it’s not about being attacked. Like I’m an elected official. I get criticized every day about something. And as a public employee who has much more trust placed in their official duty, y’know, as police officers because we’re talking life or death, there’s no other, there’s no other function in government that relates to safety in the way that police work does. And so yeah, of course people are going to be critical because those lives are literally in their hands. And we have a responsibility as cities and states to protect the safety of folks. And if that’s not happening, then we have to step in and we have to do something about it. But it also, again, takes those same police departments, those chiefs of police, those sheriffs to work with us to get there, to say, “Yeah, I guess there is a problem,” instead of being on the defensive all the time and showing this unwillingness to change. We got culture issues that are pervasive, and you can even look after Eric Garner, like those officers who were wearing the “I Can Breathe” shirts, essentially making a mockery of a man’s death. And y’know, those people are on the police force. Those are the people who are sworn to protect and serve, and you got to think too, y’know, if this is the way that a lot of people who are allowed to get into these departments, if this is their response, then what’s their response to folks in marginalized communities that have actual emergencies? Are they going to offer the same level of compassion, care, and service? It’s hard to think so. And we need more good officers to step up and lead the change and be a part of the change. Lead these efforts internally in your own departments, and unfortunately, too many are put in positions where they’re ostracized or they, y’know, the culture has these officers living in fear of their own lives because they want to try to do the right thing. And that’s why reform is one step, but totally reimagining the role and function of police in our society has to be an angle.

Marisa Wojcik:

Liberal leaders such as Madison mayor Satya Rhodes-Conway are being heavily criticized for claiming to be on the side of the protestors who want to abolish police departments or defund them, but then also coming out in support of police departments. And we literally see them clashing at protests on the streets. Perhaps not so much these past few weeks, but it is still happening. Do you see these two things as you have to take one side or the other as they are playing out at these protests?

Mandela Barnes:

I don’t think it’s about taking sides. I think it’s about doing the right thing. That’s the important part, right? And y’know, defunding isn’t necessarily as aggressive as a lot of folks paint it. Y’know, school budgets get cut almost every year. The arts budgets get cut almost every year, y’know, music programs, all these programs see budget cuts unfortunately. And it’s the result, that’s part of the reason we are where we are because our youth don’t have the outlets that they once had to express themselves. And y’know, every other budget that gets cut, it seems like, “Oh, well, we just had to cut this budget. “We had to do what we had to do. “We had to tighten up our purse strings. “We had to tighten up our belt.” But the minute you talk about reducing a police department’s budget, then it’s like all hell breaks loose and everybody acts like you’re signaling Armageddon. But that’s not the case. It’s about reallocating funds in a way that actually promotes safety. And I don’t think that personally, when every department in every level of government sees these sweeping cuts, that y’know, all of a sudden, all of a sudden, police officers are being attacked because y’know, they’re being asked to do the same thing as everybody else in government. Especially at times like now where revenues are down, given the economic devastation that COVID-19 has brought about, cities are going to be strapped for cash, counties are going to be strapped for cash, our state is going to be strapped for cash. So we’re going to have to take a hard look at y’know, what is being funded at what level, and y’know, what is going to make the most sense for us to see a full recovery in Wisconsin. And not just back to normal, because life after COVID is going to be much different than life before COVID, no matter how you look at it. And that’s the reality that I think people aren’t necessarily, haven’t necessarily grasped. Because it’s a tough one. It’s a tough one to not imagine things going back to the way they were, but we shouldn’t want things to go back to the way they were. We should want things to be much better and much more equitable.

Marisa Wojcik:

This conversation was sparked about police brutality, but it has turned into a much bigger conversation about systemic racism, white supremacy culture. Are things going to change with policy, or is this going to have to be a complete cultural overhaul?

Mandela Barnes:

Oh, oh, both, but I would place more emphasis on the cultural overhaul. Just because, y’know, and I think there is a culture shift. As I stated before, there are so many people who are waking up, who are going through their childhood and adult life, school and professional life, without ever having to confront these issues because it never touched them, it never touched anyone around them. But as society grows more connected, you can’t escape it. And you have to take a hard look at yourself and ask, are you going to be okay with this, or are you not going to be okay with what’s going on? Because people can see firsthand how the injustice felt by a community that’s not theirs will still be felt by their community or them as individuals in some sort of way. And if you are for preserving y’know, the republic, if you are for preserving this nation, you will step up and look at injustice and see it as something that’s intolerable. You’ll step up and look at it and say that y’know, no longer can people continue to be left behind, whether it’s the economic injustice, whether it’s the injustice brought on by lack of access to health care, environmental injustice, the list goes on and on and on and on. You can talk about police violence, but we can also talk about policy violence. So there are policy issues that do need to change. Again, our health care system being one, and also the policies that allow for this level of income inequality that we’re experiencing across the country and across the globe. These are policy failures. This is policy violence. So I would say that it’s both, but it absolutely takes a culture shift to help get us there as well. And I’ll remind you too, all across the world, y’know, at no point, y’know, at least in recent memory or recent history, has there been large-scale demonstrations like this, y’know, concentrated on one cause, on one central issue. This is going on in all 50 states, it’s going on in corners all across the globe. And at the height of the civil rights movement, the issue of civil rights still wasn’t a popular one. The polling data shows that people were still on the fence. People still didn’t understand. But at this point, as things balloon all across the country, people are in favor of folks stepping up, stepping out and demanding justice. People are sympathetic to the fact that black people and folks of color across this country aren’t all treated the same way. And y’know, it’s not a divisive thing. Nobody’s asking for any more than any other one person or group of people. What we’re asking for is equity. Those things went from asks to demands.

Marisa Wojcik:

You’ve worked on these issues for a long time, and you’ve said you’re tired of disregard for black lives. What do you say to those who are like you, who are experiencing this fatigue in this time?

Mandela Barnes:

That is a really good question, because folks are experiencing fatigue. I reached out to a lot of people who are involved in this work, who’ve been involved in this work for years, for decades, for a long time. People are worn out. People are tired of having to talk about the same old things all the time. And granted, more people are listening, there are more eyes that see what’s going on, but at this point, I guess the message there is to remember how important maintenance of mental health is. It was always something that was important. I think COVID brought us to a different place where people thought about their mental health, and now that we are in the midst of this, of mass demonstrations across the country, I think that our mental health is even more important because with every speech, with every sign, with every list of demands that are laid out by protestors and organizers, we see things within our own lives that we’ve experienced that we probably shouldn’t have had to, things that folks have brushed off, adversity that was undue and unjust, and that can weigh heavily because you carry a different burden. I’ll even say myself, y’know, in this position, I’m honored to have this position, especially at a time like this, but there are so many folks who are just kind of comfortable. And that comfort, again, is one of the many reasons why we are where we are. And there’s a burden that I notice that a lot of folks, too many people in elected office don’t have to carry. Some people– and it’s amazing too, when you think about how many elected officials were able to get into office without ever considering the issue of racial justice. Never having to talk about the issue of racial justice, never having to confront their own bias, or never having to confront their own comfort with racism. And they’ve gotten pretty far. There are a lot of people who are just fine, and there are some people who y’know, like sit back and now look at the polling data, and you see them send out an e-mail that talks about the issues of the day because the polling data is in favor of the plight of African Americans and marginalized communities of people of color across this country. And they’ll send out a tweet or something, and y’know, that’ll be it. And they still get to go home and rest comfortably. And I wish that, sometimes I wish I had that same comfort. But these things remain on my mind because I think about my own family members who got mixed up in the criminal justice system. I think about my own family members who have experienced policy violence. I think about my own friends and family members that I’ve lost to gun violence too, y’know. Not everybody shares the governing burden the same when it comes to an issue that is this heavy.

Marisa Wojcik:

Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes, we really appreciate your time and you joining us today.

Mandela Barnes:

Thank you.

Marisa Wojcik:

For more from Here & Now and PBS Wisconsin, you can visit PBSwisconsin.org, and thank you so much for joining us on Noon Wednesday.