Frederica Freyberg:

The man appointed by the state Department of Justice to recommend whether to charge the police officer who shot Jacob Blake says he struggled with seeing a Black man shot in the back but in the end described it as lawful but awful. We sat down with police reform consultant and former Madison Police Chief Noble Wray. Thanks very much for joining us.

Noble Wray:

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Are you at peace with the recommendation you gave to the Kenosha DA not to charge the officer who shot Jacob Blake? And, if so, why?

Noble Wray:

I was at peace with coming to that conclusion, but I would never be at peace when a citizen, an African-American male, is shot on a city street in the United States.

Frederica Freyberg:

Because a friend of the Blake family and organizer in Kenosha lamented your and the DA’s decision saying that we should not live in communities where as Black people, “if you step outside, you’re fair game.” So you understand what she’s saying?

Noble Wray:

I understand it, and in so many ways. And that is the struggle because I understand it from a — you know, a police officer. Police officers, there are African-American police officers feel the same way. I understand it from a personal standpoint. I don’t — I feel that way. I have — like I said, I have sons. Now I have grandsons. I feel that way. It is like this heavy weight that sits over us that is kind of pervasive, that — it is a weight that the justice system — it just seems like it hangs over being Black in America.

Frederica Freyberg:

Under one police reform proposal in the state of Wisconsin, the standard for use of force would change to using deadly force only as a last resort. Would that have changed your recommendation had that been in place?

Noble Wray:

You know, don’t stop shooting until you stop the threat. I think that does deserve some more dialogue and understanding. I think by introducing a law that says the last resort would cause us to go back and look at that. In my report, that’s the last thing I ended on my report. I said that we still need to focus on the sanctity of life. And what I meant by that is just that. I don’t think we’re doing enough in this. The parameters that we have to use to judge this puts us in a framework where we don’t have the flexibility of being able to think out of the box. Now, obviously, those that are in the policing profession right now would probably push back on that. Because it is a tough job. It is tough when you are exercising and using deadly force, to make that in a split second decision with all of these things going on. But I do think the obligation for us to look at this as a last resort, but have a framework to work with, it would be really important.

Frederica Freyberg:

On another matter, and unrelated, what is your response to the U.S. Capitol Police basically losing control to the Trump mob, as it were, compared to response in Washington and elsewhere to Black Lives Matter protestors?

Noble Wray:

Clearly they were not prepared. Clearly there was a differential response. Everyone that watched the protests that took place in the spring and the summer, post-George Floyd, saw this. But the reality is is that they did not have enough. And it was painfully obvious they didn’t have enough.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you just described it as painfully obvious. What was your reaction when you saw that and realized that that was happening?

Noble Wray:

My reaction was from an African-American in this society is why is that happening that way? It almost appeared to be to me to come across as intentional. It was so obvious that there were not enough people. You have a national event taking place. But from a policing standpoint, I had mixed feelings, obviously. I knew that the officers that were out there were trying their best. They were trying their best to do it. So I’ve been in those situations, you know, given Mifflin Street on Halloween here in Madison, where you want to put people in their best position to succeed. I don’t think the leadership, Capitol Police, put those folks in the best position to succeed. And we’re very lucky that more did not happen in this whole thing or people were not hurt or potential loss of life.

Frederica Freyberg:

As to the Jacob Blake shooting, Noble Wray says in his view all officers in Wisconsin should be equipped with body cameras. Kenosha officers are not. The full-length interview with Wray can be seen at PBSwisconsin.org.