Frederica Freyberg:

In the final run-up to the November 8 election, President Joe Biden took in the airwaves this week to decry political violence saying the “big lie” that the 2020 election was stolen fueled the capitol insurrection and the recent attack on Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s husband.

Joe Biden:

It’s a lie that fueled the dangerous rise in political violence and voter intimidation over the past two years.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is there a direct line from disinformation to voter intimidation and political violence? We discuss misinformation with expert on elections, media and political communication, UW-Madison journalism professor Mike Wagner who’s also engaged in research on this topic. Thanks for being here.

Mike Wagner:

My pleasure.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is it even a question that disinformation fuels violence and voter intimidation?

Mike Wagner:

It’s a question but right now the answer we have is that, yes, it does certainly seem to. There are people who see mis- and disinformation on their social media feeds and in more extreme corners of the internet but also in terms of people who meet up together and yes, there are direct lines we can draw between the misinformation that flows online and people’s behavior that sometimes can turn violent.

Frederica Freyberg:

This is kind of an old question but why does what the president calls the “big lie” persist even in the face of so much fact checking and evidence to the contrary?

Mike Wagner:

Part of it is that so many people on the Republican side of the aisle who are elected officials continue to fuel it. Much of the opinions that Americans develop is driven in part by what our elected officials say. They help shape our attitudes. Most of us don’t wake up and say, “How do I hold my government accountable today?” We look to the leaders, especially in the party we prefer to help us make sense of the world. And if leaders in one party are saying the election was stolen, it becomes hard to trust the fact checks and you couple that with the talk radio and far right ecology on social media that says you also can’t trust the news media, you have this toxic mix of distrust which leads to some of these problems.

Frederica Freyberg:

How much misinformation or disinformation is flying around out there right now?

Mike Wagner:

There is a lot. The truth tends to be more mundane. Mis- and disinformation tends to be much more emotional which not only means we recognize it, it also means it’s more likely to get shared so it spreads faster than the truth which is one of the problems we have when we’re trying to catch up with how mis- and disinformation spreads.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you’re looking at this all the time. What’s one of the most egregious examples of it you’ve seen?

Mike Wagner:

I think some of the claims that the election was stolen is a good example. I think other claims that there are elected officials who are running secret rings that abuse children is another example, the major QAnon theory is an egregious example. Other ones related to vaccinations. Not only because they reduce people’s likelihood to take the COVID vaccine but childhood vaccinations are down 10 to 15% so the spillover effects are huge not just for the specific lies being shared but how they affect other issues that come in contact with.

Frederica Freyberg:

Where is this most heavily trafficked?

Mike Wagner:

Social media, Twitter is a place, Facebook is a place. Other more extreme, Parler. Those kinds of places are where this really purveys quite a bit. There are networks of people who are willing to share this. It’s profitable to do it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why do people embrace it?

Mike Wagner:

Some people who embrace it do it because it feels good. It feels good to see the other side having to hear these negative things about them. Others do it because it’s profitable or it might help their particular side gain power. Others prefer chaos and there’s a small subset of people who just enjoy watching the world burn and they are more than happy to share things that aren’t true to stir things up.

Frederica Freyberg:

Former president Obama asked what happens when truth doesn’t matter anymore? What does happen?

Mike Wagner:

We lose a shared opportunity to solve problems. If we can’t agree on truth, then how can we agree on what the nature of any problem is? And if we can’t agree on that, how can we agree on potential ways to solve those problems? I think our ability to governor ourselves is deeply affected by whether there are collective understandings of what’s verifiably true.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is that where we are now?

Mike Wagner:

I think that’s a little strong but it is — but barely. I think a lot of folks who are studying these issues are worried that we’re getting to a point where people may just completely shut off to the idea of understanding that information that’s bad for their side and is true should be rejected. People need to accept it when their side loses an election. Just as — I’m from Minnesota. I’m a Vikings fan. We’ve never won the Super Bowl. It would be ridiculous of me to claim that Vikings had. I would be laughed out of any room if I said that, especially in Wisconsin. But people are making those same kinds bizarre claims on really important issues beyond football like who won an election or does this vaccine cause a problem.

Frederica Freyberg:

So persistent disinformation like this stolen election may whip some people into committing political violence but what effect does the long simmer of this have on the rest of the folks who wouldn’t crash the capital or hurt anybody?

Mike Wagner:

I think one thing it does is reduces many people’s belief that we can solve problems, that we can work together to solve problems. It lowers our ability to want to compromise with the other side. If the other side is dangerous and evil and not to be trusted, why would we ever want to compromise with them? I think there are long-term problems just in terms of generalized problem solving that this causes. And another is just the lack of trust in people who can tell us verifiably true information and there are times when we need to know what’s true and it could be a matter of life and death and if we don’t trust the folks, like you, if we don’t trust journalists who face consequences when they say things that aren’t true, if we don’t trust them, we’re in some real trouble.

Frederica Freyberg:

What’s going to break this cycle?

Mike Wagner:

That’s a great question. I wish I knew the answer. I think one thing that can help is listening. I think when we’re trying to persuade people who we know believe things that aren’t true, we should aim for the heart and not the head. If facts were enough, we wouldn’t be in this mess. There are other things we have to do to build trust with each other that go beyond I’m right and you’re wrong and you have to accept it.

Frederica Freyberg:

How might all this disinformation disrupt this election and its aftermath?

Mike Wagner:

Well, depending upon who wins, I think we might see one side or not be willing to concede they lost. That might lead to more behaviors at state levels like saw on January 6 at the U.S. Capitol. There are a lot of governor races and Senate races that might raise the ire of people. These have huge consequences from a policy perspective. So there are things to be watching as we see what happens with the counting of the votes after Election Day.

Frederica Freyberg:

Mike Wagner, thanks very much.

Mike Wagner:

My pleasure.