Here & Now

Kaul: ‘We Need to Hold Them Accountable’

Frederica Freyberg:
A first look tonight at the fast moving court fight over the Legislature’s lame duck legislation. This week, a Wisconsin appeals court put on hold an earlier ruling out of Dane County that threw out the laws passed in the waning days of Governor Scott Walker’s administration, laws that limited Governor Tony Evers and Attorney General Josh Kaul’s authority. Republican majority leaders had this to say about the stay in the court of appeals pending its consideration of the case, “Last week’s circuit court ruling created a constitutional crisis, established law says that the court cannot tell the Legislature how to set its rules. Extraordinary sessions have been called for decades. Today the rule of law has prevailed. Independent judges have put a Dane County ruling on hold that was based on politics, not the law,” they said. For its part, the Evers Administration said this, “The only victory today is for the $500-per-hour Chicago lawyers getting paid by taxpayers to defend the Republican attack on our Constitution. Republicans created this chaos and have doubled down on their defending their illegal attack on our Constitution instead of working with the governor to move forward.” A second Dane County court ruling overturning some of the lame duck legislation was not addressed by the appeals court. We will dig in to what both sides are calling chaos created by the other in a few minutes from the capitol, but first, we are joined by Attorney General Josh Kaul, who this week announced Wisconsin will work with other states to investigate opioid distributors, calling the opioid epidemic the state’s most significant public safety challenge. He joins us now. Thanks very much for being here.

Josh Kaul:
Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
First out of the gates, we just wanted to ask your reaction to the court action this week on that lame duck legislation.

Josh Kaul:
Yeah, well, there was a second ruling as you know recently that found that some parts of the extraordinary session legislation are unconstitutional, and I think that’s right. There are aspects of that legislation that I think clearly levitate the separation of powers that’s required by Wisconsin’s Constitution. They, for example, take some litigation authority away from the attorney general’s office and give oversight to the Legislature. That to me is clearly an executive branch function and so I was not surprised to see that those portions of the legislation found unconstitutional.

Frederica Freyberg:
What about the action that the appeals court took?

Josh Kaul:
So that action has stopped the first of the two rulings from going into effect, but we still have this other ruling which relates to several aspects of that legislation, so because of that, we are still currently able to resolve cases at the Department of Justice without having that legislative committee involved.

Frederica Freyberg:
Where does the appeals court stay put Wisconsin’s action to remove itself from that ACA lawsuit?

Josh Kaul:
Because there is the second order, it doesn’t impact that because the second order is still in effect right now. As you indicated, we have filed to withdraw the state of Wisconsin from the lawsuit that’s seeking to invalidate the Affordable Care Act and that motion is pending right now.

Frederica Freyberg:
What about what the stay means for the 82 appointments that Governor Evers rescinded after that first circuit court ruling?

Josh Kaul:
So I will let the governor’s office and the Legislature weigh in on that dispute between them, but I will say that this chaos that we’re seeing is not surprising. This is a direct result of the extraordinary session legislation. We have had a system of government that’s been in place for a very long time in the state of Wisconsin. And in December, that was upended, and one of the clear products at the time and I think we’re seeing it play out now is that there was going to be litigation and uncertainty as that litigation moved forward. That’s distracting us from the work that we should be doing which is working to address problems that Wisconsin faces.

Frederica Freyberg:
As to that, in regard to what you describe as the most significant public safety challenge in Wisconsin, the opioid epidemic, why did you decide to join this multistate investigation into opioid distributors?

Josh Kaul:
As you just mentioned, the opioid epidemic is the most significant public safety challenge we face. We have lost the lives of thousands of Wisconsinites to this epidemic. County budgets around the state have been strained. People across the state wake up either struggling with addiction or worrying about a loved one who is, and I think we need to take a multifaceted approach to responding to that epidemic. I think we need to work to prevent people from becoming addicted. I think we need to work to provide treatment to people who are addicted. But I also think we need accountability to the extent that companies or anybody else broke the law with conduct that contributed to the opioid epidemic. I think we need to look into that and if there were violations of the law, hold those companies accountable.

Frederica Freyberg:
So what will investigators specifically be looking at in regard to the distributors?

Josh Kaul:
So I can’t comment on the specifics of the investigation, but what I can say is that it was previously announced that Wisconsin was part of a multistate investigation into manufacturers of opioids. Other states previously announced that they were investigating the distributors as well, companies that distributed opioids to pharmacies around the country. We have announced that Wisconsin is part of that investigation, because by looking at the different companies that were involved in the manufacture and then the distribution of opioids, hopefully we can take a holistic look at what caused this problem because part of accountability from my perspective is making sure that we work with the goal of maximizing Wisconsin’s recovery if there was unlawful conduct, but also really getting to the root of what caused this so we have a clear understanding of what caused the opioid epidemic, and how we can prevent another epidemic like it from happening again in the future.

Frederica Freyberg:
At what stage is this investigation?

Josh Kaul:
So again, I can’t comment on the specifics of the investigation, but I believe that the investigations are moving forward appropriately. We are able to gather information through these investigations. You know, there’s certainly been some hope that there may be an opportunity to settle some of these cases but if there is not a settlement, litigation is certainly an option for the state of Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:
How has the use and abuse of opioids including the really very deadly fentanyl ramped up in Wisconsin in recent years?

Josh Kaul:
So there’s a bit of good news you on the opioid epidemic here, which is that we’ve seen a decrease in opioid prescriptions, and that is part of what it’s going to take, I think, to work to prevent people from getting addicted in the long term. But one of the consequences with that, I think, is there are people who have shifted to illegal opioids, heroin, fentanyl, some people have started using meth, and I think that the use of those drugs has increased. We’ve seen a significant increase in fentanyl, for example, and those drugs are incredibly dangerous. Fentanyl is extremely powerful, and they can be responsible for a number of overdoses. And so one of the things we need to make sure we’re doing, I think, is in addition to working to reduce the over prescription of opioids, which I think we need to continue to do. We also need to make sure that if people are addicted to those drugs, even if they’re getting off those prescriptions, that we’re making sure that they have access to substance abuse treatment so they don’t just start using an illegal drug.

Frederica Freyberg:
Where is this fentanyl coming from?

Josh Kaul:
So fentanyl has been coming across the border, and into the country. What often happens with drugs coming to Wisconsin is we first see them coming in at the coasts and they work their way to the Midwest. But that’s part of what makes this so dangerous. It’s been manufactured abroad, the concentrations are very high, and it’s something that people have to be aware of because it can be laced in other drugs, and it itself is extremely dangerous. So there were plenty of reasons before for people to stay away from illegal drugs but the danger that fentanyl presents is certainly another powerful one.

Frederica Freyberg:
Briefly with less than a minute left, how much money are you seeking in your budget to address some of these issues?

Josh Kaul:
We’re seek funding for several different aspects of our budgets that are going to impact the effort to address the opioid epidemic. That includes funding for a division of criminal investigation, which can participate in significant intensive investigations. We’re also seeking funding for treatment and diversion programs so that people who are addicted are able to get the help they need. We’re also seeking funding for grants for community policing programs, so that hopefully we cannot only improve relationships between law enforcement officers and the communities where they work, but also hopefully get better intelligence that will help us identify significant drug traffickers and hopefully take out drug trafficking networks.

Frederica Freyberg:
Josh Kaul, thanks very much.

Josh Kaul:
Thanks for having me.