Frederica Freyberg:

If anyone knows the tension between policing and race it’s our next guest, the former Madison police chief, in law enforcement for more than 35 years, a consultant for the U.S. Justice Department on community and police relations and the expert who upheld the decision to not charge the Kenosha police officer who shot Jacob Blake. Noble Wray says he advocates for police and for police reform. We get his take on the Derek Chauvin verdict and what comes next. Noble Wray joins us from Madison. Chief, thanks very much for being here.

Noble Wray:

Thank you. I appreciate the invitation.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what was your reaction to the Chauvin `verdict, both as a member of law enforcement and from a personal standpoint?

Noble Wray:

From a personal standpoint, one of the things that jumped out as I watched that were the citizens that were observing what was going on. And from their perspective, they were not in any way, shape or form being adversarial. They were just describing how they felt, what was actually happening. And I thought that was something that was missed in this. They really were citizens that cared about George Floyd and I thought that that was missed in the whole trial and what was going on.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what was it like from both perspectives, to hear the testimony and repeatedly see the video of the officer’s actions that resulted in the officer’s murder conviction?

Noble Wray:

This was a no-brainer from the beginning. I thought and many in law enforcement thought that this was something that was clearly an excessive force case. It was nine minutes and so many seconds. This was something that I think most people understood straight from the gate. And you didn’t have to be a law enforcement expert to be able to determine that this was an indictment on humanity.

Frederica Freyberg:

So with 37 years in law enforcement then, would you describe what happened to George Floyd as an outlier in police practice or an example of all too common use-of-force, especially against people of color?

Noble Wray:

I really think that these cases should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis because they’re so complex. The other thing that I think it’s important for people to recognize is the framework in which the Supreme Court has laid this out, objectively reasonable, that I don’t think we’re going to get different results and I think the public expects something different. But we’re not going to get different results when it’s framed out based upon how the Supreme Court has laid this out, this objectively reasonable standard.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what can be done about that, that objective reasonableness standard? It kind of depends, right, on who you’re calling objective to meet that threshold? And what do you do about that if you are trying to implement reform?

Noble Wray:

The reality is although we refer to it as being objective and reasonable, because you’re dealing with someone’s judgment, his subjectivity is always here. And so as long as we are judging this, you will always have a subjective part of the analysis that will take place here. And I don’t think people realize that. It is what a reasonable officer would do under certain circumstances. And I think we all understand that. But there’s still a level of subjectivity that we have to account for.

Frederica Freyberg:

As to that, have strides been made in mitigating implicit basis wherein when people, particularly law enforcement, see Black people, they see a threat?

Noble Wray:

Yeah. I mean, the research is out there. I mean, there is a Black threat implicit bias. There’s data, there’s research, there’s empirical information out there that would show. Here’s the thing in terms of the Black threat implicit bias, many police officers right now start to pull back, because they don’t want to be the CNN, the Fox News, the social media example. So they are pulling back on some of the activities and actions that they would take, both in the area of use-of-force as well as the work that they do.

Frederica Freyberg:

So that would be regarded, I trust, as a good thing.

Noble Wray:

In some respects, it’s a good thing. In some respects, it’s not. Because proactive police, engaging with community, talking to people, explaining what you’re doing, engaging with community is the heart and soul of community policing. So if we’ve got police officers that are pulling back, they’re not engaging, that’s the downside. The part in this where I think officers are thinking through this one is the use-of-force. You know, how do I approach this? Should I slow down? Should I create distance? All of those things are critically important for police officers not to engage in uses of force.

Frederica Freyberg:

You said at the conclusion of your Jacob Blake review that the policing field must continue to focus on the sanctity of human life in dealing with deadly force. How does the policing field get there and stay the focus on the sanctity of human life?

Noble Wray:

I don’t think, Frederica, that we have pushed hard enough on, you know, this idea that we have to have, you know, firearms as part of ending this. I really don’t. The Second Amendment is something that is guaranteed to citizens. It is not guaranteed to police officers. We should be pushing harder as a profession, that we can stop a human being without taking a life. That is so critically important. I don’t think as a profession, I think we fail in that arena.

Frederica Freyberg:

Noble Wray, thank you very much. Thank you for joining us.

Noble Wray:

Thank you.