Announcer:

A PBS Wisconsin original production. The following program is part of our “Here & Now” 2020 election coverage.

Frederica Freyberg:

Another week filled with politics and pandemic in Wisconsin. Governor Tony Evers orders a new public health emergency and extends the state mask mandate into November. This, even as quarantines are lifted from UW-Madison dorms and students resume some classroom instruction. And all campaign trails led again to the badger state. Joe Biden courted workers in Manitowoc on Monday.

Joe Biden:

We can be a safe and just nation.

Frederica Freyberg:

Mike Pence built support with manufacturers in Eau Claire at week’s end.

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” Governor Tony Evers is here to discuss the new public health emergency. U.S. Senators Ron Johnson and Tammy Baldwin are also here and have very different views about how to fill the seat of the late Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I’ll talk with them about that and other topics in just a moment. And we’ll hear how voters in rural Wisconsin are leaning into the race for president. It’s “Here & Now” for September 25.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

The long-awaited report from Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson’s investigation into Hunter Biden came out this week. It did not find that the position the former vice president’s son held on the board of a Ukrainian energy company influenced U.S. government policy, saying the extent to which his role affected U.S. policy is not clear. It found Hunter Biden’s position on the board was “awkward” for U.S. officials pushing an anti-corruption agenda in Ukraine. President Donald Trump’s efforts to get Ukraine to launch a similar investigation were key to his impeachment. Senator Johnson joins us tonight on this and other matters and, senator, thanks very much for being here.

Ron Johnson:

Hello Frederica. Hope you’re doing well.

Frederica Freyberg:

Thank you. And you as well. Now, you call this a good government oversight investigation that was stymied by deep state officials at the State Department. Couldn’t it be that Hunter Biden’s awkward employment just didn’t influence U.S. policy?

Ron Johnson:

One reason I’m saying that we have been frustrated by people in the State Department is we still don’t even have close to all the documents. So at some point in time you have to say, okay, we’re going to end this — we’ve got to do a cut-off and we need to provide the American people what we’ve already found out as we continue to investigate. So we’re still digging into this. But I wouldn’t agree with the people’s assessment that there’s nothing new here. There’s all kinds of new information and it goes way beyond Ukraine. Now, remember, we never sought to target the Bidens and make them the principal objects of our investigations. Their actions, as you properly described, George Kent said it made it awkward for every U.S. official that was trying to push an anticorruption agenda in Ukraine. Their action setting up — in the span of 28 days, just two months after the Revolution of Dignity, which is all about ridding Ukraine of corruption, their action setting up this glaring conflict of interest with Hunter Biden, his business partner on the board of a thoroughly corrupt oil company owned by thoroughly corrupt odious oligarch, as George Kent said, they put them in the crosshairs so to speak. And what we found then as we tried to unravel financial dealings is the financial web with the $3.5 million payment from the former wife of the former mayor of Moscow, a Moscow billionaire, who probably got her billions through corruption. We found an intricate web of cash flow between Hunter and his business and Chinese nationals that have connections to the Chinese government as well as the past relations with the People’s Liberation Army. So our report really raises far more questions than it really answers. But I would dispute the fact that we didn’t find some real problems in terms of that conflict of interest in terms of how it frustrated and was awkward for people trying to push an anti-corruption agenda in Ukraine.

Frederica Freyberg:

And that full report as well as the Democratic committee members’ report can be found online. Meanwhile senator, the pandemic ranges on. Wisconsin, its rising case number in the crosshairs. A second relief bill is at a partisan impasse over how generous it should be. Do you support another round of $1200 stimulus checks or money for cities and states, for example?

Ron Johnson:

We already passed more than $3 trillion in COVID financial relief and I voted for that. We had to make sure that markets wouldn’t seize and people through no fault of their own, their businesses were shutting down, they were losing their jobs, needed financial relief. The fact of the matter is we still have hundreds of billions of that that haven’t been spent, haven’t even been obligated. So I supported what Republicans worked on long and hard over the August recess, a more targeted bill, which would have extended unemployment relief, $300 per week, increase PPP $100 billion to help schools reopen, billions of dollars for vaccines for testing for childcare but Democrats just said no. They refuse to take yes for an answer. They have to have everything they want. It’s either their way or the highway. It’s very unfortunate. I mean Republicans put forth a responsible targeted relief package. I don’t know why Democrats wouldn’t take it. It’s like if I go up to you Frederica and say give me 200 bucks. And you generously say, well, I don’t have 200, but I’ll give you $100. I just walk away stomping. You know, if makes no sense that they wouldn’t take yes for an answer and provide that kind of relieve for the American public.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your reaction, senator, to the charging decision in the death of Breonna Taylor in Kentucky?

Ron Johnson:

Well, that is our judicial system. I don’t agree with every judicial system that comes down the pike. I’m not in the grand jury. I don’t have all the information. What I do know is we are a country noted for abiding by the rule of law, not mob rule. And what we are starting to see is people just rejecting the process and rule of law, not waiting for definitive answers, leaping to conclusions, public officials stoking the fires. We just had a hearing yesterday on U.S. threats and most of the testimony, most of the questioning, was about what I consider right now the greatest threat to this nation, which is mob rule. Almost 570 protests have turned into riots. This is highly concerning because we are moving in the direction of rioting and anarchy as opposed to the rule of law. Very troubling.

Frederica Freyberg:

And this important note, senator. President Trump is expected to announce his Supreme Court pick tomorrow. You voted to block a Barack Obama nominee in 2016 six months before the election, saying people should vote first. Now if you’re even 40 days before an election you don’t want to wait. Why does the argument that Republicans control the Senate change the ‘let the American people have a voice’ position you took in 2016?

Ron Johnson:

Because back in 2016, we had divided government, Democratic president, Republican Senate. It was a 1-1 tie. So we said let the American people break the tie. Let them chose. Right now we don’t have a 1-1 tie. We have 2-0 situation and the American people did speak. In 2016 they elected President Trump who had a list, by the way, of his judicial nominees. And he’s followed that list. They’re excellent jurists. They’re judges. They are going to apply the law, not alter it. The American people also gave a Republican Senate a majority in 2016 plus we increase our numbers in 2018. So they’ve spoken. And by the way, this is precedent. This is the norm, where we’ve had a judicial vacancy in an election year when its divided government, the president nominates. The Senate has basically rejected and not confirmed. Where we have unified government, the president nominate and the Senate has confirmed. And we’re just following that precedent, that norm. It’s Democrats that have consistently broken precedent and norms starting with borking Robert Bork, Justice Thomas, Brett Kavanaugh, and Harry Reid’s master stroke unfortunate where he used a nuclear option and took away the filibuster of these types of appointments. All we’ve done is follow Harry Reid’s precedent. It was unfortunate he really harmed the Senate the way he did.

Frederica Freyberg:

We need to leave it there. Senator Johnson, thanks for joining us.

Ron Johnson:

Have a great day.

Frederica Freyberg:

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was honored as the first woman to lie in state at the U.S. Capitol today following her death a week ago. Tomorrow, President Trump will announce his pick for her replacement. Republicans want to vote ahead of the election on the president’s nominee. Democrats decry that move, including Wisconsin Senator Tammy Baldwin who joins us now and thanks very much for being here.

Tammy Baldwin:

My pleasure. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

How powerful was it for you to pay your respects at the Capitol to Justice Ginsburg?

Tammy Baldwin:

Oh, it was — it was a lovely arrival ceremony, and it just made me reflect on her legacy, on how every day of her adult life she moved forward in the name of justice. And one of the speakers at the ceremony talked about the meaning of the word — or the meaning that Ruth Bader Ginsburg gave to her dissents. When she was writing a dissent, it wasn’t for now or the past. It was providing the arguments for the future so that we could keep on marching forward. And it was just beautiful to think of it in that way.

Frederica Freyberg:

In 2016 you wanted to vote for Barack Obama’s nominee before the election. Why the switch now?

Tammy Baldwin:

Well, in 2016 Mitch McConnell announced a new standard: no votes on confirmation of Supreme Court justices in an election year. Barack Obama nominated Merrick Garland in February of the election year. Now that Republicans are in control of the Senate and the White House, Mitch McConnell says my standard goes by the wayside. That’s the height of hypocrisy and duplicity. It’s a power grab. And for me it’s especially meaningful because I know how high the stakes are at the court. Seven days after the election, the court is going to hear a case in which President Trump is arguing for overturning of the Affordable Care Act and the protections that people have if they have a preexisting health condition they can still get affordable insurance. This is during a pandemic. So one of the issues I know Wisconsinites care most deeply about is at stake in this decision. I dissent and object to Mitch McConnell and the president trying to do this while Wisconsinites are already voting. It is the next president and the next Senate who should deal with this confirmation.

Frederica Freyberg:

On the election, what do you make of President Trump saying he could reject a peaceful transfer of power if he loses?

Tammy Baldwin:

You know, for me it’s another step in a long pattern of undermining our democracy. The idea that he would not heed the voices of the people in a government of, by and for the people is outrageous. And I think we all must stand for the principle that the people decide who our president and vice president are going to be. And, you know, it was just appalling to hear him say those words.

Frederica Freyberg:

We just spoke with Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson about his investigation and report on Hunter Biden. What’s your response to that report?

Tammy Baldwin:

Well, it showed nothing, basically. But the timing and use of taxpayer resources and investigatory resources at a time when we’re in the middle of a pandemic, when that very committee oversees the U.S. Postal Service and we’re experiencing dangerous and harmful delays in the delivery of our mail, that he’s just recycling old theories is a misuse and disrespect of taxpayers and taxpayer resources.

Frederica Freyberg:

On the pandemic, how committed are Congressional Democrats to reaching a comprehensive relief package deal?

Tammy Baldwin:

It is the thing we should be doing rather than going through confirmation hearings and having this Republican power grab. It is exactly providing relief for so many struggling Americans, families, small businesses. That should be our sole focus between now and Election Day and beyond. The president sort of walked away from the negotiating table several weeks ago. We need the White House back there. And the harm is being experienced now, and I just sometimes feel as though Mitch McConnell and some of my Republican colleagues do not understand, are not in touch with the real struggles. And the other thing we’re talking about pandemic relief, economic relief and stimulus, but let’s just note that Wisconsin is facing record numbers of new coronavirus cases nine months into this pandemic, which also shows the failure of leadership of this president.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m afraid with just about a minute left, your response to the charging decision in the Breonna Taylor case?

Tammy Baldwin:

It is so heart-breaking that Breonna Taylor’s life was taken and nobody is going to be held appropriately accountable, in my opinion. I do agree with calls to open and make public the materials that were shared with the grand jury so we can find out whether they really got the facts and the question posed to them that would allow accountability in this tragic, tragic case.

Frederica Freyberg:

We leave it there. Senator Tammy Baldwin, thanks very much.

Tammy Baldwin:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Governor Tony Evers this week issued a new public health emergency and extended the statewide mask mandate as COVID-19 cases in Wisconsin continue to surge, with state health officials saying the state is entering a new and dangerous phase. Governor Evers joins us now and, governor, thank you so much for being here.

Tony Evers:

Thank you, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, you and state health officials are really sounding the alarm over this surge in cases. What do you see coming at us in this new and dangerous phase?

Tony Evers:

Well, what — clearly the University of Wisconsin System and other colleges going — beginning their school year has brought, you know, a new group of people to a difficult situation. I remember I was just last week talking to Dr. Birx from the federal government and she was saying that Wisconsin is one of two states where we have community spread and campus spread simultaneously. And so we just have to make sure that we’re in a good position to make sure that we have the testing in place and the contact tracing and clearly we need to have these masks on.

Frederica Freyberg:

But meanwhile UW-Madison this week announced they would be reopening to campus activity. What confidence do you have that university officials here in Wisconsin are doing the right thing?

Tony Evers:

Well, they’re sure working hard at it. And we’ve been involved with them all the way along with developing their plans. And they’ve been pretty stringent. I mean they’ve been quarantining people right in the dorms for two weeks now. And so I feel confident that it’s time to slowly move into a different phase, but it has to be done slowly, has to be done carefully and make sure we’re in a good position before we take any other steps. But it’s going to be a bumpy ride, Frederica. No question about that.

Frederica Freyberg:

You say had Republicans and the state Supreme Court not closed down your “safer at home” order we’d be in a different place. Do you blame them for this latest surge?

Tony Evers:

Well, it’s been ongoing, frankly. When we have very little we can do around mitigation. I mean, look at the southern states, where they slowly moved in a better position. But those governors had the opportunity to mask groups of people being together. They could control those things. I, because of that decision made by the Supreme Court way early in this campaign against the COVID, took away all those opportunities to mitigate. So we’re down to the basics: masks, making sure we have good testing and making sure we keep socially distanced from people. That has been our mantra for months now.

Frederica Freyberg:

For their part, state Republican leaders call your latest orders and mask extension illegal and there’s already a lawsuit, as you know, over the last order. What pause does that give you as you issue new orders and extension?

Tony Evers:

Doesn’t give me any pause. My job is to keep the people of Wisconsin healthy. And as you know, we did an order in I think it was mid or late August. Under the circumstances at that time we saw a huge increase. When there is something substantively different we believe we can do this and there’s something very different this time, too, with all the campus COVID-19 positive testing.

Frederica Freyberg:

With just about a minute left, you are asking Republican leaders to lead by example and wear masks saying fundraisers and appearances show photos of crowds without them. What message do you think those kinds of images send?

Tony Evers:

Well, obviously the wrong message. And, you know, not only does it show up in the pictures. It shows up in their actions. And, frankly, at the national level, too. If we’re going to believe that science means anything and the science is really strong around the masks, we had the head of the CDC last week saying it’s the most important thing we can do, it’s even more important than vaccines. So let’s wear masks. Mask up, Republicans. Mask up Wisconsin. It’s really critical. We’ve seen last time we did this more people in the state were wearing masks. And so it’s easy. I can’t say it’s fun, but it’s easy. But we have to do it.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We leave it there. Governor Tony Evers, thanks very much.

Tony Evers:

Thanks so much, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

State Republicans wasted little time denouncing Governor Evers’ emergency order. Assembly Speaker Robin Vos said “Wisconsin’s lawless governor continues to rule by fiat and it must end. This latest order is obviously illegal. Wisconsin statutes clearly state the powers given to the executive branch during a public health emergency are limited. There is already a court challenge and undoubtedly there will be more. No one branch of government can rule outside the letter of the law and go unchecked even during a pandemic.” Last spring, the Republican-led legislature challenged the governor’s “safer-at-home” order. The state Supreme Court struck the order down. A separate lawsuit filed last month in Polk County challenges the governor’s authority to extend the state mask mandate without the Legislature’s approval.

Latest case numbers in Wisconsin today show another 2500 people tested positive for COVID-19 and all 72 counting report high COVID activity. For more we check in with Chief Medical Officer in Wisconsin and State Epidemiologist Dr. Ryan Westergaard. Thanks very much for joining us.

Ryan Westergaard:

Hi, Frederica. Nice to be with you.

Frederica Freyberg:

How frightened should we be by these numbers?

Ryan Westergaard:

Well, I’m extremely concerned. More concerned than I’ve been throughout any point in the pandemic. The increase, meaning the trajectory of new cases, is steeper than it has ever been. We’re also starting to see an uptick in hospitalizations and severe disease. So this is about the most concerning picture that we’ve had.

Frederica Freyberg:

And now health officials like yourself are worried about what is around the bend as well.

Ryan Westergaard:

Well, respiratory virus season typically starts in the fall. It gets worse thru the winter and then resolves in the early spring. It’s a little different every year, but that is the pattern. So if we are now at what is generally the beginning of respiratory virus season: cold and flu season and COVID-19 virus behaves like other respiratory viruses, it could get a lot worse before it gets better unless we take some pretty aggressive actions.

Frederica Freyberg:

Like?

Ryan Westergaard:

Well, we saw how to flatten the curve in the spring. We started to have an increase in cases in April and May. Most states had some sort of a “stay at home” order and the epidemic curve responded. So we know widespread attention to social distancing works. We’re going to need to do that if our goal is to flatten the curve again and I think it should be.

Frederica Freyberg:

And yet what is at the governor’s disposal at this moment is a mask mandate. Is that correct?

Ryan Westergaard:

A mask mandate can be a helpful tool as well, but it’s one piece of a large puzzle in terms of prevention strategies. And if the political environment doesn’t support a “stay at home” order, it’s on everyone individually to take it on themselves to limit social contact as much as we can.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is that frustrating for you that there are political limits to that?

Ryan Westergaard:

Well, I think in public health we take the environment we have and the tools we have and we try to be as helpful as we can. So we’re working with the situation as we see fit and trying to do the best we can.

Frederica Freyberg:

I understand that the need is critical for more contact tracers. How close are we to coming up against surge capacity in other areas like hospital beds?

Ryan Westergaard:

Well, the hospital beds and ventilators seem to be in good supply. When we talk to health care leaders, the critical piece, what they say is that we might run out of staff, nurses, for example, who if they are exposed and need to quarantine can promote a real shortage of health care resources. So it’s not just bed availability. It’s also staffing. And so we need to plan ahead for, as you said, the potential surge and try to figure out how to make our resources work the best.

Frederica Freyberg:

Briefly here, doctor, we’re being told not just to distance, wear masks and wash our hands, but to stay home. Are we basically to self-quarantine in the midst of this wide community spread?

Ryan Westergaard:

Well, I think that the notion of quarantine has a specific meaning and I think it’s very important for people to understand that. That is, when you find out you’ve been exposed to somebody who’s been infected or diagnosed with COVID-19, a 14-day quarantine is essential. So it’s different than what we need in terms of widespread social distancing, which will have an overall effect on reducing the transmission but quarantine is something we probably need to talk about more and understand better as a key prevention strategy.

Frederica Freyberg:

We will talk to you next time. Dr. Ryan Westergaard, thanks very much.

Ryan Westergaard:

Thanks for the good questions.

Frederica Freyberg:

The investigation into the police shooting of Jacob Blake in Kenosha will see a well-known outside expert taking on the case as a consultant to reach a charging decision. Former Madison Police Chief Noble Wray also served as a police reform expert for the U.S. Department of Justice. The Kenosha DA says Wray asked one question before taking the case. Have you already made the charging decision? Wray was told no.

Noble Wray:

I’ve been honored as a policing professional to do a number of things, but I’m from Wisconsin, and, you know, this is Wisconsin’s moment of truth. And I want the best for this state and the people in this state. So I was honored originally. And the reason why I asked that question is because this should be a fair and impartial investigation. It should not come across as something that has been prejudged or the decision has already been made.

Frederica Freyberg:

Wray says he expects to move with deliberate speed, but says no time lime has been set for when he must complete his review.

Now back to presidential politics. All eyes are on Wisconsin this fall and particularly on rural Wisconsin, where a tight statewide vote could be decided. Our partners at Milwaukee PBS traveled to Clark County to see how voters there were approaching Election Day. Here’s Portia Young.

Portia Young:

America’s heartland is historically where political candidates find a strong conservative base. Rural Wisconsin is traditionally no different.

Dean Lesar:

Loyal is in the middle of a conservative area. I can’t foresee that changing in my lifetime.

Portia Young:

That’s Dean Lesar, editor of the Tribune Record Gleaner newspaper in Loyal, a small dairy town in the northwest part of the state. Loyal is also in Clark County, where there are twice as many dairy cows as people.

[moo]

Portia Young:

Lesar says fiscal conservatism and the abortion issue drive the large republican vote in Loyal and Clark County. He says this is definitely Republican territory no matter who the candidate. He acknowledges being the odd man out as a Democrat.

Dean Lesar:

Nobody seems to be able to meet in the middle or listen to the other side. This is what I think and if you don’t, in fact, I oughta… I’m not so sure. A good friend of mine a couple weeks ago call me an idiot because I’m not voting for Trump in fall. So there you have it.

Portia Young:

Lesar says COVID-19 also widened the divide, a divide he thinks became clear four years ago. Farmers, a large population in this county, have traditionally voted Republican and have taken a big economic hit over the last five years. Young dairy farmers Robin and Chris Rueth say they haven’t quite made up their minds, but understand why there is still so much support for President Trump in Clark County.

Robin Rueth:

The Republican Party started here in Wisconsin too. I guess what people like about Trump, too, if he says he’s going to do something, he does it, you know? I guess that’s what a lot of people around here like.

Chris Rueth:

Yeah.

Robin Rueth:

Because that’s what people are around here. People are true to their word around here. So I think that has a lot to do with it.

Chris Rueth

You don’t know how the person really is unless you meet them face-to-face, which is hard to do.

Portia Young:

Some political writers think Donald Trump winning rural Wisconsin might be harder to do this time around. He won Wisconsin four years ago in small towns like Loyal and in rural counties.

Frederica Freyberg:

Thanks to Portia Young and Milwaukee PBS for that report. And that is all for tonight’s program. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.