Here & Now

Here & Now for September 17, 2021

Announcer:

The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

Life at Fort McCoy continues for Afghan refugees, including children gathered in outside classrooms under the instruction of Red Cross volunteer teachers. But even as donations to Fort McCoy flow in, concerns about living conditions there are raised by a Wisconsin congresswoman.

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” a UW Law School professor describes her work with refugees inside the fences of Fort McCoy. The academic and social impact on students returning after a year of virtual instruction. A pediatric infectious disease doctor weighs in on COVID cases in schools. And the return of the “Here & Now” political panel. McCoshen and Ross look ahead to the races shaping up for campaign 2022. It’s “Here & Now” for September 17.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Fort McCoy in Wisconsin is now reportedly at or near its capacity for housing newly-arrived refugees from Afghanistan. An estimated nearly 13,000 adults and children from that country are temporarily residing at the U.S. Army installation near Tomah. What are their lives like and what are their needs and hardships? We check in with Erin Barbato, director of the Immigrant Justice Clinic at the University of Wisconsin Law School. She and her students hope to support the legal clinic at Fort McCoy and she has recently visited there. Thanks very much for being here.

Erin Barbato:

Thanks so much for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what services are you and your law students hoping to provide at Fort McCoy?

Erin Barbato:

Well, what we’re hoping to do is ensure that people are welcomed with dignity and part of that I believe is ensuring people know their legal rights when they are in the United States. What is their pathway to citizenship now that they’re here? So we’re hoping to support that movement on base at Fort McCoy in the near future.

Frederica Freyberg:

What specific kind of legal assistance do you expect they will need?

Erin Barbato:

Well, all of them had to evacuate in an emergent situation. Some of them were in the middle of their legal process. For example, many of them I met with had pending special immigrant visas, who were people who worked for the embassy or for the U.S. Army as interpreters. But they had to flee before their actual visa and their pathway to citizenship was complete. So now they’re waiting to see what the next steps are. So we’re hoping to learn what the next steps will be for them and to support them through that process.

Frederica Freyberg:

So how would you describe the experience of being amidst the thousands of newly-arrived people airlifted out of Afghanistan?

Erin Barbato:

It was a sight I had never anticipated seeing, especially in western Wisconsin. It’s a beautiful area of Wisconsin where this sprawling military base is. When we drove through, we were going through at 15 miles an hour. It’s a really slow speed limit. And the first thing I saw were families from Afghanistan just walking the streets. It was something I had never anticipated seeing before. So it was pretty surreal.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is the trauma of the people who were literally plucked out of Kabul palpable?

Erin Barbato:

It was. When I met with the families, women, children, fathers, single men, we heard their stories and the emergent situation that they had to flee was clear. Everyone was quite gracious to be where they were, but you could tell they were worried about their family members still in Afghanistan or their family members that had to flee to other countries. It’s common in the immigration system, but these families were torn apart, often in the situation that they had no control over.

Frederica Freyberg:

And now they are here. What are conditions like for people housed at Fort McCoy? What are they telling you about their hardships or their barriers there?

Erin Barbato:

Most of what I discuss with people were their legal options. During those discussions sometimes they did discuss what the living environment was for them at Fort McCoy. And, as I said before, people seemed to be incredibly gracious. But it was clear that there were hardships. Many of them told me that they didn’t have a change of clothes or that their shoes were not the right size as well as waiting in long lines for food. And nobody really wanted to complain, but I could tell that this was not the situation where we were welcoming someone with dignity and I think we could do a much better job.

Frederica Freyberg:

You have told us that you felt as though the authorities or the people at Fort McCoy were trying hard to make things better. Is that what you believe about that?

Erin Barbato:

I do. I mean, the first thing I saw when I pulled up to get my security pass to enter the base was a man, a veteran arriving in a huge truck full of donations. And we’ve seen people across Wisconsin come together to donate money and materials to ensure that people do have what they need. But I think because of the emergent situation and people arriving so quickly, we just didn’t have everything set up in a way that could get the materials to people when they need it. But I could see people working as hard as possible to bring these supplies to the people who so desperately need them.

Frederica Freyberg:

In your estimation, what help can they use now and going forward?

Erin Barbato:

I think because there’s 13,000 people, an estimated 13,000 people there, there’s a need for new clothing and materials and also just monetary donations so that organizations that are supporting the work on the ground there can use that money as conditions change and as needs arise.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, it’s reported that of the thousands of new arrivals, about 400 are likely to resettle in Wisconsin? Will your project continue to help serve those people?

Erin Barbato:

You know, if there’s a need, I hope we can, but oftentimes if they were settled through the refugee resettlement agency they can get legal access to attorneys in that way. So we’re studying this process and my students are very eager to help in any way we can. But I’m also hoping that the resettlement agency in Wisconsin will have the capacity to serve them as well.

Frederica Freyberg:

Thank you very much. Erin Barbato, thank you.

Erin Barbato:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now to COVID news and a visit from First Lady Jill Biden to a Milwaukee elementary school. Biden was there to observe and learn how schools were doing in the return to in-person instruction. Her visit Wednesday coincided with city health officials announcing rising numbers of COVID cases among school children and staff, numbers they said now account for nearly a third of the cases in the city and county.

And the latest numbers tonight, Milwaukee Public Schools report more than 400 positive COVID-19 cases in the past two weeks among students and staff. A majority of these cases are among students, many of whom are under 12 and cannot be vaccinated. To better understand how COVID-19 is impacting these students, we turn to Dr. Joseph McBride. He’s a pediatric infectious disease specialist at UW Hospital. Thank you very much for your time.

Joseph McBride:

Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what are you seeing in children with COVID infections in terms of number of new cases?

Joseph McBride:

I think what we’re seeing here in Madison and throughout Wisconsin and throughout the country in general is much like what’s been reported in Milwaukee. We’re seeing increased rates of COVID-19 in children and also a little bit more increased severity in some of the illnesses that are experienced.

Frederica Freyberg:

So how concerning are these numbers of positive cases being reported in places like Milwaukee and, as you say, across the state? How concerning is that?

Joseph McBride:

Yeah. I think it’s really concerning from the standpoint of, as you mentioned, this is a large group of people who are unvaccinated and then therefore unprotected at the same amount of immunity when we compare it to adults. Whenever we have large groups of children unvaccinated together like in a school setting, there will be a risk of transmission that will be higher this year compared to last year, when many of our schools were closed.

Frederica Freyberg:

One thing that stands out is that you just said that these infections are also proving more serious in this pediatric population. Describe that.

Joseph McBride:

So whenever we’re dealing with an infection, there’s always a spectrum of illness. Some people are asymptomatic. Others have mild illness. On the opposite end we have more severe illnesses. So the rate of more moderate to severe illnesses with COVID now, with some of the more recent variants like the Delta variant, is a little bit skewing towards the more moderate to severe at a higher frequency than we did previously earlier in the pandemic.

Frederica Freyberg:

What of breakthrough cases of older, vaccinated children?

Joseph McBride:

So breakthrough cases are cases of COVID-19 in situations where people have received the complete vaccine schedule. And we see breakthrough infections with every single type of vaccine that’s out there. Thankfully, breakthrough cases are less frequent and less severe in general than those in the unvaccinated population and children between the ages of 12 and 18 who have been protected are no different than anybody else. We can see breakthrough infections in this population.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so of those who are not getting the breakthrough, but are the population that is unvaccinated, are these patients being admitted in any number to the hospital?

Joseph McBride:

Yeah. Of course. We do see admissions to the hospital due to COVID-19 in pediatric patients and we did see some last year as well too. There is a slight increase in the frequency of some of these hospital admissions with severe cases. As the virus changes, so does our response and so does our level of admissions, which is again a further reason why we want to be able to give our children immunity when the vaccine should be available to them. In the interim, when we can’t give them the vaccine yet, we as a community, especially adults, have to do everything we can in order to limit the spread of COVID-19, which involves vaccinating ourselves, masks for ourselves and all the other social distancing and infection control methods that are recommended.

Frederica Freyberg:

What should parents know about what to look for in their children who may become infected and when it is potentially serious?

Joseph McBride:

Yeah. So any kind of respiratory virus, whether it’s due to COVID or influenza or things like RSV, which have been around for years, can cause a wide spectrum of symptoms but usually the concerning things regarding children are increased respiratory rate or breathing problems, having a hard time eat and keeping down food, high fevers, being listless. These are some of the symptoms that people should seek out medical care for in the event that their child becomes sick, not just from COVID, but from any kind of upper respiratory viral infection.

Frederica Freyberg:

How do we balance a desire to keep kids in school while also keeping them and school staff safe?

Joseph McBride:

Boy, that is such a challenging question and I myself am a father of two young school-aged children. My wife and I really struggle with this. We do know that in-person school is important. It is something that children really get a benefit out of and the CDC school guidelines really stress this. Our goal is to keep children in school for learning. Not just for their sake but for the parents and working families as well too. So how do we balance this is a challenge. We have to do what we can to mitigate the spread of the virus. Best techniques for those things are mask use, good hand hygiene, having social distancing, following the CDC guidelines for in-person school education, which are widely available and followed by many districts and then of course, again, the big thing is vaccinating those who are eligible to receive the vaccine. If we’re able to get our levels down, then of course there will be less opportunity for kids to be infected

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We leave it there. Dr. Joseph McBride, thanks very much and thank you for your work.

Joseph McBride:

Thank you very much for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

Even as the Delta variant of COVID-19 causes a surge in cases across the state and in schools this fall, the fallout from last year with its virtual learning model and shutdowns has left many children adrift. For more on the effects of the pandemic in school and in the community, we turn to UW Madison associate professor of Human Development and Family Studies in the School of Human Ecology, Sarah Halpern-Meekin. Thanks very much for being here.

Sarah Halpern-Meekin:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So we had an anecdotal example of a second-grader this year who is functionally more like a kindergartener due to the loss of in-person learning during the height of the pandemic. How common is this kind of deficit?

Sarah Halpern-Meekin:

Well, kids have been in a really wide array of situations over the course of the pandemic. So we’ve had some kids who have received a lot of instruction, some of it in-person, some of it remote, and we have other kids who have had really very little instruction. The other thing that has varied among kids, however, is how much their needs were being met. So students who may have needed special education services, that they were not receiving during the pandemic, might have had even more learning struggles than a child whose needs were being met through online or in-person instruction.

Frederica Freyberg:

How heavy of a lift is it to get children then in that kind of circumstance back to where they need to be so that they can learn effectively?

Sarah Halpern-Meekin:

So one thing that we want to remember is how resilient kids are. So people are amazing. Kids’ brains are amazing, especially the brains of young kids. They’re doing so much growing all the time. And so what the situation is now is certainly far from destiny, right? But it’s a matter of connecting kids with the right services and supports and then also making sure that the adults in their lives have the services and supports, the resources that they need at their disposal so they can be those supportive, present adults in kids’ lives and they can be providing the kinds of interventions that kids need in order to meet their regular needs, continue building their coping skills and, you know, move forward in a positive way.

Frederica Freyberg:

You also talk about how obviously all children, and you mentioned it earlier, are not kind of suffering deficits or losses equally. How so?

Sarah Halpern-Meekin:

Well, we know that there were achievement gaps that existed before the pandemic, and so these inequities that have gotten a lot of attention during the pandemic are certainly not new. But the pandemic has forced us to face them perhaps in a different way. For example, just the basic issue of whether or not school districts could afford devices for students to use for online learning put some students in a more advantageous position than others. Whether families have access to high-speed internet varies a lot from place to place. But those issues of underfunded school districts or infrastructure limitations, those aren’t new during the pandemic. They’re just showing those problems in a new way. So those existed before. But we also know that some of the inequities that kids dealt with before manifested themselves in different ways during the pandemic. So when kids were sent home to learn, some of them went home to parents or caregivers who would normally be staying at home and could provide attentive support as the kids were doing online learning. In other families, parents or caregivers were trying to juggle work and first grade math at the same time. And some parents really had to make huge financial sacrifices to stay home with their kids, like giving up their jobs. In other families, some adolescents may have been left to supervise themselves, which could work well for some and not so well for others. So the level of support or supervision that kids had and the sacrifices that families had to make varied a lot, you know, from person to person. The other main point that I would emphasize is what I was talking about before with kids who normally receive special education services who have individualized learning plans. We know that online learning couldn’t replace or replicate what they needed oftentimes to receive an equitable learning environment, and so school-based speech or occupational therapy, for example, they might just not have happened and kids who might normally have had the support of a paraprofessional in the classroom throughout the day, they just didn’t have those things. So for those kids, they really went without a lot of their core learning tools throughout the pandemic.

Frederica Freyberg:

Easy to see why people say it’s so important to have kids back in the classroom as long as we can do so safely. Sarah Halpern-Meekin, thanks very much.

Sarah Halpern-Meekin:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

Fresh off the announcement that he will not run for governor of Wisconsin, we get the political panelist band back together on “Here & Now.” Republican strategist Bill McCoshen announced this week he is taking a pass on being a candidate in 2022. So he’s here along with his counterpart Democratic strategist Scot Ross and welcome to both of you.

Bill McCoshen:

Good to be back.

Scot Ross:

Welcome.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, Bill, come on, this is a lot more fun than running for governor, is it not?

Bill McCoshen:

Well, it’s a lot less dangerous, that’s for sure.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, Scot, were you surprised that Bill bowed out?

Scot Ross:

Yeah. I mean, I would assume he’d get more television if he were running for governor so I was surprised about that for sure. Bill’s a good guy. He would have brought a lot to the field. I think he would have brought something badly needed to the field, which is a little bit of moderation, a little bit of less radicalism. So it is definitely bad for the Republican Party, probably good for the Democrats.

Frederica Freyberg:

Bill, one thing you said in your announcement that stood out was that, “History says the GOP needs a competitive primary to beat an incumbent Democrat governor in 2022.” So you think former lieutenant governor under Scott Walker Rebecca Kleefisch needs some competition? Is that what you’re saying and if so, why?

Bill McCoshen:

I do.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why?

Bill McCoshen:

But I don’t want your viewers to take that the wrong way. It doesn’t mean I’m against Rebecca. Not at all. In fact, in my lifetime Republicans have only defeated an incumbent Democratic governor two times. Once in 1978 after a competitive primary between then-chancellor Lee Sherman Dreyfuss and former congressman Bob Kasten. Kasten was the Republican party-endorsed candidate and Dreyfuss upset him. And he ultimately ended up beating interim governor Martin Schreiber. We removed that tag after that term. But that was the first time. The second time was my old boss, Tommy Thompson in 1986. He won a five-way primary before going on to defeat incumbent governor Tony Earl, not to be confused with Tony Evers. So it’s happened twice in my life. Both were after a competitive primary on the GOP side. So there is no precedent for beating an incumbent Democrat without a primary. Doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen. It just has never happened.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to back up a little bit Bill and give you a brief chance to tell us why you didn’t throw your hat in the ring.

Bill McCoshen:

You know, it came down to two things really, Fred. I have been on successful statewide campaigns. In ’90 I was Tommy’s communications director and in ’94 I ran his campaign. I was the campaign manager and he became the first man ever elected to a third four-year term. We got 67%. I know a little bit about statewide gubernatorial campaigns and how to win them. And the reality is you need two things. You need time and you need money. I felt pretty confident about the financial commitments I had from across the state to run a competitive campaign. But the reality is I ran out of time. There’s 417 days until the general election, but there’s only 326 days until the primary next August 9. And Rebecca has got a very big head start in that front. She been on the statewide ballot five times with Scott Walker and she actually won a primary in 2010 to get on that ticket and she’s been working the chicken dinner circuit for ten years. So I needed more time. The sale of my business, through no fault of anyone, took longer than I expected, but I’m excited to be joining Michael Best Strategies on October 1st.

Frederica Freyberg:

Scot, do you think also that Rebecca Kleefisch needs some competition here?

Scot Ross:

I think Rebecca Kleefisch is radically wrong for Wisconsin. She was Scott Walker’s lieutenant, and she championed a far right agenda that attacked the ability of you to get affordable health care. She attacked the rights of women. She attacked the rights of workers. She attacked the rights of Black and brown people. She even attacked the ability of your kids to get a quality public education. And worst of all, in order to try to win this election, to win this primary she expects might happen, she has [?] up with the anti-vaccine, COVID deniers and the racist, “Big Lie” Biden election victory deniers. This is the wrong way for Wisconsin. The good news is that Governor Evers has done what he needed to do. Governor Evers’ steady leadership has put Wisconsin back on track. It continues to deliver for the people of Wisconsin. His investments he made in public education and infrastructure and in health care are all paying dividends for Wisconsin. We are amongst the lowest unemployment rate after COVID and we have lost far less jobs than our neighbors.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to jump in and ask Bill, does Scott Walker campaign for his former lieutenant governor in this race?

Bill McCoshen:

He endorsed her on day one and his son Alex is going to be the campaign manager. This is a risky move, I think, by the Kleefisch team. I think she needed a little bit of daylight between she and former governor Scott Walker. She needed to be her own person. And tying herself completely to Walker, again, if there is no primary means she owns everything that Walker did while he was governor. While those of us on the right think who think he did a lot of good things, a lot of people on the left didn’t think he did a lot of good things. So it fires up the left by having them so close. I think she should have had a little bit of distance there so she could be her own person.

Frederica Freyberg:

Bill, you yourself are cast, as we’ve discussed, as a moderate Republican. What do you think the Wisconsin electorate is looking for?

Bill McCoshen:

I’m not sure that’s a fair characterization. I consider myself a conservative but compared to some, I guess maybe I’m a little more closer to the center of the spectrum than the far right. I think Republicans want somebody who can win, number one. And number two, I think they want somebody who can do the job if they do win the election. That was the lane I was going to try and run up, is I had been in the governor’s office under Tommy for six years. I had served in all the top positions. I’d been commerce secretary for four years. I’ve been on the inside for ten years in literally the top positions and I know how to run a government.

Frederica Freyberg:

Scot, I’m sorry, I just want to get Scot in and ask him what he thinks the Wisconsin electorate is looking for.

Scot Ross:

I think they’re looking for people who make good on their promises and that’s what Governor Evers has done. I think with all the cacophony on the right, with all the antivaccine, with all the COVID denying, with Republicans standing in the way of the common sense, science-based solutions that Governor Evers has worked with health care professionals to put forth to make us get through this pandemic with our livelihoods still intact and with our health still intact. I think that’s what they’re looking for. Rebecca Kleefisch — if Scott Walker doesn’t campaign with Rebecca Kleefisch, Democrats will make sure that those two are tied together because Scott Walker is incredibly polarizing for the electorate and Democrats will run out to unelect him again with his lieutenant on the ticket, absolutely without a doubt. But, again, Rebecca Kleefisch has learned from Scott Walker. She learned at the feet of the master. Right now she has been campaigning the last year illegally using a non– a tax exempt nonprofit to campaign for governor, which is against the laws of the state of Wisconsin when it comes to campaigns and against the IRS laws when it comes to nonprofits.

Frederica Freyberg:

We unfortunately are out of time. We got a lot more to talk about but we need to leave it there. We are so thrilled that you are both back on this panel for us on this program. Scot Ross, Bill McCoshen, thanks very much.

Bill McCoshen:

Good to be back.

Scot Ross:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

For more coverage, including on Wisconsin’s COVID condition, go to PBSwisconsin.org and then click on the news page. That is all for tonight’s program. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.