Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” the democratic candidates for president debated last night even as the Trump campaign appeared in Wisconsin. We have coverage of both. Attorney General Josh Kaul speaks to the stand-off between himself and the Joint Finance Committee and a new proposal aims to move Milwaukee forward with a sales tax hike. It’s “Here & Now” for September 13.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided in part by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

Frederica Freyberg:

Ten Democrats on one stage, each seeking the attention and the vote to move ahead to number one. Each and every one of them knows Wisconsin is most important in the 2020 election for president. So how did they fare in the eyes of the Wisconsin electorate? For that, we turn to political analyst former politician himself UW-Milwaukee Professor Emeritus Mordecai Lee. Thanks a lot for being here.

Mordecai Lee:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Who would you declare as the winners and losers in the third Democratic debate?

Mordecai Lee:

Well, as a Wisconsinite I suppose I root for the underdog, for the maverick. I think if we set aside the big three, that some of the others had good nights. Booker had a good night. O’Rourke had a good night. Klobuchar did. I think they were the stand-outs if we’re willing to sort of move away from the noise of the big three.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s take a look at one exchange from last night that focused on healthcare. Bernie Sanders and Amy Klobuchar on the pros and cons of a Medicare-for-all plan.

Bernie Sanders:

I, who wrote the damn bill, if I may say so, intend to eliminate all out-of-pocket expenses.

Amy Klobuchar:

While Bernie wrote the bill, I read the bill. And on page eight of the bill, it says that we will no longer have private insurance as we know it.

Frederica Freyberg:

So that was kind of an “ouch” moment. What’s your reaction to that?

Mordecai Lee:

Well, generally speaking in politics you have to decide are you going to go for incrementalism – modest change, reform? Are you going or radical change? I think Bernie Sanders is the ultimate example of radical change. Klobuchar is trying to run in the middle but not get killed in the primaries. It’s hard to get enthusiastic from the voters for being moderate. I think she had a good moment there but it’s still a tough place to be politically.

Frederica Freyberg:

In terms of that, that interaction amongst the candidates on Medicare-for-all seems to delineate the split between the hard left and the more moderate Democrats. Does that seem accurate?

Mordecai Lee:

It does, Frederica. I’d like to suggest looking forward, I think Medicare-for-all might be political quicksand. Because I can imagine a Republican attack commercial that says to people, do you want to have taken away from you your employer health insurance? And given that most Americans have employer health insurance, I think that would radically change public opinion. And so this is a really tough stance. That’s why she was trying to say and Biden was trying to say, let’s go for incrementalism instead.

Frederica Freyberg:

Latest polling in Wisconsin as you know from Marquette Law has former vice-president Joe Biden favored by 51% and President Donald Trump by 42% among Wisconsin registered voters. What could upset that kind of lead in Wisconsin in the coming months?

Mordecai Lee:

I think most of those results are name recognition. Have you heard of this person? Do you know this person? I think as soon as we start getting results from Iowa and then New Hampshire, I think those poll results will fade into the past because then people will be concentrating on the viable candidates of those 10. But right now, they’re sort of the stand-outs because people are familiar with them.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, you have a prediction. I’d like to hear it.

Mordecai Lee:

Okay. I’m going to predict that the ultimate democratic nominee is neither going to be Sanders nor Biden. I just have a feeling they’re not going to wear well. Now, I might be wrong and if I’m wrong, I hope you will erase this tape. But I think the Democratic voters are ultimately going to decide they want a new face and a younger face.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you make that prediction that it will be neither Biden nor Sanders and you say a new face. Like who?

Mordecai Lee:

Oh gosh, how about any of the other eight or the other seven, it seems to me. I think they all showed themselves to be articulate and policy wonks. They knew what they were talking about. They knew how to talk in sound bites. I’m guessing 7 of those 10 are going to be viable, attractive candidates.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now as you know, all eyes are on Wisconsin as the crucial battleground state of the 2020 presidential election. What in your mind is going to win the vote of Wisconsin independents who might have flipped say from Barack Obama to Donald Trump?

Mordecai Lee:

Wisconsin is such a divided state. When in the last presidential election, it was won by about 22,000 votes over I think it was 2 1/2 million votes cast. Or in the last Supreme Court election, that it was won by 6,000 votes. If you’re just looking at it as a statistician, that’s almost like a random result. That’s just so indecipherable and so unpredictable. So I guess the lesson here is it says that every vote counts. You can’t take anything for granted. And in particular what happened with Clinton is she did not excite African-American voters in Milwaukee. And so you need a candidate who would do that. Certainly people who like Trump are not going to change. But Wisconsin has such a new category of flip voters. In other words, college-educated women. That is the target demographic. Whoever wins them is going to win Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

For a political junkie like yourself, how exciting is this race and Wisconsin’s place in it?

Mordecai Lee:

You know, Frederica, I’ve been following Wisconsin politics since I was an undergrad in Madison in the 1960s. I have to say I never imagined that Wisconsin would be the center of the political universe. I think it’s not an exaggeration to say that we in Wisconsin are going to elect the next president. That’s astonishing for such a small state. We have, I think, it’s 10 Electoral College votes. But there are so few states that can flip. In fact, Julian Castro at the beginning of his statement yesterday, he listed about half a dozen states that really were targets for Democrats. Wisconsin, of course, was on it. So I think we can sort of sit back and almost feel like we’re in New Hampshire or we’re in Iowa. That’s how much people are going to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right, Mordecai Lee. We’ll be speaking with you as the months go by. Thanks very much.

Mordecai Lee:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Even as Democrats running for president debated in Texas, the Trump campaign paid a visit to Wisconsin. Senior Campaign Advisor Kimberly Guilfoyle appeared at UW-Madison. She spoke at a rally sponsored by the Campus College Republicans.

Kimberly Guilfoyle:

Their politics, their ideology, what they want to put forward really is socialism. It’s going to create stagnant wages and less job opportunities. So why would we let them squander the 6 million new jobs already created? But I will tell you something, the United States, President Trump is re-elected in 2020, America will never be a socialist country.

[applause]

Frederica Freyberg:

Now for a closer look at the ongoing stand-off between the Department of Justice and the Legislature. Wisconsin was not among the more than 20 states that reached a settlement with the opioid manufacturer Purdue Pharma this week. Attorney General Josh Kaul saying, “We’re committed to getting justice and in my view, Purdue’s current position does not achieve that.” This comes in the midst of an impasse with Republicans on the Legislature’s Joint Finance Committee over whether they should sign confidentiality agreements in order to see and approve case resolutions under the so-called lame duck laws limiting Kaul’s authority. The co-chairs of JFC stated, “Through media reports, the attorney general stated Wisconsin is not one of the states agreeing to settle the Purdue Pharma case at this time. We hope those reporters have signed non-disclosure agreements because they are getting confidential information from the attorney general that he refused to share with members of the Joint Finance Committee. The attorney general,” they say, “should stop playing games.” JFC committee leadership declined our invitation to appear on tonight’s program. As the high stakes dispute continues, we sat down with Attorney General Kaul just ahead of the announced settlements among other states. We started by asking about the need for those secrecy agreements.

Josh Kaul:

When you’re litigating a case, there is certain information that needs to be kept confidential in a lot of circumstances and so to present potential settlements to the legislature, we reached out and we said we need to reach a process that’s going to allow us to discuss these matters confidentially so the state’s interest, the interest of taxpayers isn’t undermined by having confidential information made public and available to the other side in litigation. We’ve offered a couple options but the primary one was we offered a confidentiality agreement for the legislature to sign. They have declined to sign that and the problem is the solutions they have offered don’t actually protect confidentiality. So we need them to figure out some sort of solution to this mess that they’ve created, so that we can move forward with resolutions for the state.

Frederica Freyberg:

One of those solutions that they offered a couple of weeks ago was to have a lawyer sign it on their behalf. Is that still what they’re talking about?

Josh Kaul:

It is not clear to me what they’re talking about now. They’ve offered a couple solutions that they said would maintain confidentiality. First, they said they would go into closed session but the Legislative Reference Bureau has made clear that that doesn’t protect confidentiality. Then they said they would have a lawyer sign a confidentiality agreement. But again the Legislative Reference Bureau said that that doesn’t bind individual legislators. So they have not yet come up with any option that would maintain confidentiality. They gave themselves this significant power but they now need to take on the responsibility that comes with that power or they need to change the law.

Frederica Freyberg:

The Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said this about this situation. “The attorney general already knows of numerous ways he can present confidential settlement information to the Joint Finance Committee and he continues to drag his feet. He continues to say he can work with us or be part of the problem.” What’s your response to that?

Josh Kaul:

Well, he’s absolutely wrong about that. As we just talked about, there are options that they presented that don’t work. We have presented a workable option. This is a really bad situation. We’re trying to make the best of it. For months, we’ve tried to work with the Legislature but so far, they haven’t been willing to take on the responsibility that comes with this new power they’ve given themselves.

Frederica Freyberg:

You say hundreds of millions of dollars could be at stake. How so?

Josh Kaul:

The state is involved in settling lots of litigation. There are cases that have significant dollar values at stake. Over time, if this problem isn’t resolved, there is going to be significant financial consequences for the state. If we have cases, for example, a multi-state case where many states join in a settlement but we aren’t able to be part of that settlement because our Joint Finance Committee can’t get its act together and figure out how to review settlements, it’s the taxpayers in Wisconsin who are going to be harmed by that and it’s going to be harder to get justice when consumers are defrauded, for example, by somebody and we’ve brought a consumer protection action or if a polluter commits an environmental violation. We are going to have a harder time resolving those cases because the Joint Finance Committee has created this situation.

Frederica Freyberg:

What’s the status of the Purdue Pharma case?

Josh Kaul:

I can only comment generally on pending litigation but we have brought suit against two Purdue Pharma entities and also Richard Sackler, the former president and co-chair of the board of Purdue Pharma. We’ve also joined a multi-state investigation into opioid manufacturers. My predecessor joined multi-state investigations into opioid distributors and we’re committed to recovering to the fullest extent we can on behalf of Wisconsinites so we can start putting those resources to address the epidemic to things like treatment and prevention and enforcement.

Frederica Freyberg:

Were earlier settlement talks in connection with that case or those cases part of what brought you before Joint Finance saying you had an urgent matter?

Josh Kaul:

I can’t comment on the specifics of that negotiation. But what I can say is that any case where there are urgent settlement talks could lead to a situation where we might need a decision very quickly from the Joint Finance Committee. Sometimes we have to make a decision in a limited window and the Joint Finance Committee needs to have a process in place or the state is going to be at risk at losing out on being part of a large settlement.

Frederica Freyberg:

On that particular case, what would it mean if the manufacturer of OxyContin declared bankruptcy?

Josh Kaul:

If there is bankruptcy declared, Wisconsin and I think probably a number of other states, in fact I’m confident a number of other states will continue to pursue their claims both against the bankruptcy estate. We also have a claim against one of the members of the Sackler family and those claims will be claims that we continue to pursue either in a bankruptcy forum or in the form where they currently are.

Frederica Freyberg:

In terms of the situation with the Joint Finance Committee, if Justice has to try cases rather than settle them, is your office prepared to do that in every instance?

Josh Kaul:

We’re prepared to try the cases we have brought but it’s a good example of how this new procedure that has been put in place harms Wisconsinites because we have limited resources at the Department of Justice and we need to make sure we’re allocating those resources as effectively as possible. One way that we can do that is by settling some cases so that the resources we do have aren’t used in large volume on single cases. But rather we can make sure we’re getting justice in a lot more cases. If not, we need to consider the possibility that many more cases are going to trial. That’s going to impact the number of cases we can bring and the number of people who we are able to get justice for.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is there also some danger of worse outcomes if you go to trial rather than enter into a settlement?

Josh Kaul:

Absolutely. The reason you enter into a settlement agreement is you think it’s a fair resolution of a case. There are some times that risk comes with proceeding to trial. You might lose a case. You might be able to resolve it on better terms earlier and you then have to spend resources that you wouldn’t otherwise have to spend.

Frederica Freyberg:

Are you pushing this because you just don’t approve of this law or is it a partisan situation for you?

Josh Kaul:

We began in February trying to reach an agreement with the co-chairs of the Joint Finance Committee to try to put in place a process that would allow us to resolve cases. This is not a good situation no matter what process we put in place. But we’re trying to make it work because my interest is in getting the best outcome possible for Wisconsinites in these cases. But unfortunately we have not been able to reach agreement with the Joint Finance Committee because they keep insisting on solutions that don’t work. And they’ve refused to take on the responsibility of maintaining the confidentiality of confidential materials. So while I would like to see this law overturned, we’re doing our best to make it work and we unfortunately haven’t had cooperation from the Joint Finance Committee to make that a reality.

Frederica Freyberg:

Again, the Republican co-chairs of the Finance Committee declined an invitation to appear tonight.

In tonight’s look ahead, if you live in Milwaukee County you could be looking at paying more at the check-out. That’s because elected officials and even business leaders there want to hike the sales tax by 1% to help pay for services and improvements. It could be a heavy lift though as it needs legislative approval before it goes to a referendum. Democratic Representative Evan Goyke of Milwaukee is proposing a bill to allow the tax increase. He joins us now from Milwaukee. Thank you for doing so.

Evan Goyke:

Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

Assembly Speaker Republican Robin Vos as you know, has already said the proposal will be a “hard sell.” Is this dead before it even gets off the ground?

Evan Goyke:

I certainly don’t think so. I don’t like to spend my legislative time working on issues that are dead on arrival in the state capitol. The reason why I think we aren’t there yet is we have an unprecedented coalition of leaders in Milwaukee: leaders from the suburb, the city, the county, civic leaders and business leaders. This is a unification of Milwaukee unlike one that I have ever seen in my tenure in Madison. And when we work together, we can move mountains. And so, that’s our goal is to stay united, push forward on a solution that we think solves a lot of the issues facing local governments in Milwaukee County.

Frederica Freyberg:

If it is a hard sell, do you think it would be that because it is Milwaukee asking for this?

Evan Goyke:

Well, I think, we as a coalition have worked hard to try to tailor the legislation in a way that doesn’t pit Milwaukee versus the rest of the state. If this legislation passes, no school district, no one’s healthcare, no one’s roads are impacted. This is our solution. We will bear the brunt on our shoulders, our residents, our visitors and commuters will raise this revenue, keep it local, spend it local. If some of our listeners don’t live in Milwaukee County, they will not be impacted at all by this other than these investments will grow Milwaukee’s economy and our return on investment to state taxpayers will be larger.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why does Milwaukee need a new source of revenue?

Evan Goyke:

We have — we’re unique in Wisconsin. As the biggest city and the biggest region, we have unique challenges. Almost every other large city or large metro area in the United States has some ability to control their local revenue. We have suffered loss of jobs. We have concentrated poverty. We need the tools to address those issues. Currently Wisconsin’s law, our state law, treats our municipalities as pretty uniquely around the country. We’re the only state in the Midwest that does not allow our largest metro area to control, to raise or to spend its local taxes. And so what’s happening is our neighbors are growing faster than us. Our neighbors like Minneapolis or Chicago are seeing big investment that is able to attract and retain young workers and they are growing faster than our metro area.

Frederica Freyberg:

So how much could be raised and what would it go toward?

Evan Goyke:

So our estimate is that 1% or 1 cent on a dollar would raise roughly $160 million. The first one quarter of that would go back to property taxpayers. We have an imbalance in Wisconsin. We have a low sales tax and very high property tax and we want to better balance that ratio. We reserve some money for public health infrastructure to address some of the health disparities in our region and then the rest is split between the county government and our 19 municipalities so that they can use it on their operation and capital budget. That’s filling potholes. That’s police and firefighters, parks, public transit. All public services and public goods that our residents use.

Frederica Freyberg:

Just briefly with about a half minute left, one UW-M economist suggests lower income residents would suffer a higher burden saying the increased cost of things we buy daily or even weekly will have more of an impact on low income families. How do you respond to that?

Evan Goyke:

The sales tax is not a progressive tax by its nature. I think that economist is not wrong in that, I guess, that analysis. However, when governments are forced to cut services, that same population, those low income individuals, are first to bear the burden. So when we cut bus routes or parks don’t get maintained, it’s normally those populations living in poverty that are most affected by cuts in services.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We need to leave it there. Representative Evan Goyke, thank you very much.

Evan Goyke:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

In the hard sell caucus on this matter, State Representative Joe Sanfillipo of New Berlin. Thank you for being here.

Joe Sanfillipo:

Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

What do you think of a local option sales tax increase in Milwaukee County and its local municipalities?

Joe Sanfillipo:

You know, the county already takes advantage of the sales tax increase that they have. They have a half percent. I think that it’s tough. You know, in Wisconsin we’ve been going in the right direction with our taxes the last few years but we’re still one of the highest-taxed states in the country and especially in the Midwest region. Any time we want to put an extra burden on our citizens, I think it’s something we really have to take with careful consideration.

Frederica Freyberg:

But what about the argument that Milwaukee has seen declining state aid and needs some way to offset that for needed services?

Joe Sanfillipo:

So I think the county has plenty of areas where they could look within their own budget to do some trimming. I spent about five years on the county board. I’ve been off of it for about seven so I’m not as familiar as I was but when I was there, there was just a lot of areas where trimming I thought could be done that the county just was unwilling to do so. When you take a look at now, they are talking about needing to raise revenue for debt reduction and things like that. When I was on the county board, we have thousands of acres of land that is unused that developers may be interested in purchasing. I think that option ought to be explored to raise some money to be able to lower debt service as opposed to just running to the taxpayers and putting an extra burden on them.

Frederica Freyberg:

Supporters, including the Milwaukee Association of Commerce say the increase in the sales tax would provide property tax relief by putting 25% of the sales tax proceeds toward that. They also call it a sound investment of the future in Milwaukee. What about the idea that business leaders support this?

Joe Sanfillipo:

So I think you have some business leaders that will support it. If you’re in downtown Milwaukee, depending on the type of business you’re in, you aren’t as affected. But if you’re in some of the suburban communities where you’re neighboring other counties, I mean Waukesha County already is a half percent lower in its sales tax than Milwaukee County. So if this provision goes through, that’s going to translate to 1.5%. So if you’re living in the suburban communities, you have the option to go do your shopping in Waukesha County, you’re going to save 1.5%. That adds up throughout the year so I think a lot of businesses around the outer edges of Milwaukee County may not feel as much, you know, insulated from any damage that could be caused by this increase as those in downtown Milwaukee itself.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is this in your mind a good example of local control, though, through the referendum process?

Joe Sanfillipo:

Well, I think it’s a good example of the state — of the local community, in this case the county and local municipalities, coming to the state and wanting to throw it in our lap, right? I mean local municipalities and counties already have an option to hold a referendum and raise taxes if they see that they need to. But in that case, they have to sell that idea to their local voters. It is much easier for them just to come to Madison, ask legislators to give them the authority to raise the sales tax and try to slam it through. In an election where you may have lopsided results.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so as to that, Speaker Vos as you know, called this a “hard sell.” Do you think that’s accurate?

Joe Sanfillipo:

I think it is going to be a hard sell. I mean we’ve worked very hard the last eight, nine years to lower taxes in the state of Wisconsin to get us moving in the right direction. So nobody’s going to want to do something to start reversing that trend. Now the flip side of that is I think that if you see where is the money going to be spent and how do we safeguard — for example, you talk about property tax relief. How do we make sure the property tax relief isn’t just there right at first and then all of a sudden dissipates as time goes on and they end up having your property taxes going up and now your sales tax is up as well? So there will be a lot of discussion going forward. There’s no doubt there are some areas of need. The city of Milwaukee has a horrendous crime problem right now. They refuse to put more money into the police department. I think if you ask the average citizen that would be somewhere where they would agree to have some extra spending if they knew it would be going into safety. But how do you protect that money and make sure that’s where it really goes?

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We’ll continue to watch this. Representative Sanfillipo, thanks very much for your time.

Joe Sanfillipo:

Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

With two Wisconsin congressional seats opening up in 2020, candidates are lining up to fill the seats. Republican State Senator Tom Tiffany formally announced this week he will run for Sean Duffy’s 7th Congressional seat. Duffy is resigning this fall for family reasons and a special election may be called early next year. In southeastern Wisconsin, former U.S. Senate candidate Leah Vukmir and Waukesha County Exec Paul Farrow say they will not run next November to fill Jim Sensenbrenner’s 5th District seat. Names that have been floated for the seat include State Senators Scott Fitzgerald and Chris Kapenga. There could also be a second generation replay of the 2010 Republican gubernatorial primary as the sons of Mark Neumann and Scott Walker may both be considering a run. And we will be watching those races. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

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