Announcer:

The following program is a “Here & Now 2022” election special. Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” our political panel sizes up the U.S. Senate debate we just watched. Republican Bill McCoshen and Democrat Scot Ross are here. We’ll be taking a look at some excerpts from the debate for their reaction. Thanks to both of you for being here tonight.

Bill McCoshen, Scot Ross:

Thanks for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:

We said you would size up what you saw in that debate. I’ll go first to you. What do you think about that?

Bill McCoshen:

I was a little stunned. The most important issues, Wisconsin on the Marquette poll are inflation, crime, and education. We didn’t hear one question about inflation. That’s also the number one issue nationally, far and away the number one issue. Wasn’t a single question on inflation. Wasn’t any mention of gas prices or home heating prices or rent or groceries. Those are the things that people care about. The first question tonight was about some obscure little pardon that the president did this week about marijuana. They totally missed the point, I thought.

Frederica Freyberg:

Scot?

Scot Ross:

I think we saw when Ron Johnson isn’t getting softballs from Fox News, he’s stumbling, he’s bumbling and he’s flustered. I think Mandela Barnes beyond a shadow of a doubt why he was the best Democrat to take on Ron Johnson. He was crisp. He was aggressive and he answered the questions the panelists offered.

Frederica Freyberg:

Bill, what about that about how the candidates themselves did as opposed to potentially the questions that were asked in the debate?

Bill McCoshen:

Johnson was who he was, which is a commonsense conservative. I thought he answered all of the questions along the conservative line of the spectrum and I thought he did very, very well. Barnes, I think he was well prepared tonight. This was probably his best moment in the general election so far, but I don’t think it’s going to be enough.

Frederica Freyberg:

We have a number of excerpts as we said and we’ll get to those in just a moment, but I just wanted to lay out here, because we’ve all been barraged with all of these attack ads, really, and among them are the GOP declaring that Barnes is “different and dangerous.” And — and Lieutenant Governor Barnes spoke to that in his final comments. But those ads are not subtle in any way. First to you, Scot, are Wisconsin voters okay with that kind of messaging?

Scot Ross:

I think it’s unfortunate we’ve seen the most expensive and most racist ad campaign in a U.S. Senate race or any race for that matter in the history of this great state. The unfortunate thing is they’re targeting low information voters. They’re putting Mandela’s picture up there. They’re juxtaposing it with people committing crimes allegedly, and they’re trying to link the two. But somehow because Mandela is Black, he is going to commit crimes like these other Black people who are on there. I think it’s despicable and disgraceful. Senator Johnson has not called into question that tactic once. Unfortunately, it’s worked a little bit. Because, you know, Barnes’ numbers have gone down a little bit. But the fact is, the people of Wisconsin are smart people, they’re good people, and I think any of them who watched tonight’s debate know that Mandela Barnes is the right person to be U.S. Senator.

Frederica Freyberg:

Bill, what about that kind of messaging?

Bill McCoshen:

Well, it doesn’t matter what race Mandela Barnes is. Tim Michels is running very similar ads against Tony Evers. Why? They’re a ticket. One is governor, one is lieutenant governor. Why? Because crime is the number two issue not only in Wisconsin but in the nation. Crime is on the rise in our big cities and in our smaller cities. People are concerned about it. This is what suburban moms are worried about in the 2022 cycle, is crime. And I think it’s fair game.

Scot Ross:

Yeah, but I think — the thing is, is that Mandela Barnes answered those questions because he came out and he said, you know, Ron Johnson — there was a $10 billion plan to give in the American Recovery Act, to give local law enforcement resources and you voted against it. There was $19 million that came to Wisconsin for law enforcement, you voted against that. Time and time again, when it comes to supporting us, Senator Johnson votes against Democratic proposals because they’re Democratic proposals. At the same time supporting spending that, you know, for Republican ideals that have nearly bankrupted the economy.

Bill McCoshen:

I think the reason those ads have been so effective against Barnes, they have moved the numbers as Scot has pointed out, is because in most of the ads, either Johnson or his allies use Barnes’ own words, right? Those are hard to walk back. That’s why the poll has shifted in Johnson’s favor over the course of the last seven weeks.

Scot Ross:

I’m sorry, give me just one thing on this. During the debate, Ron Johnson said Mandela Barnes never said defund the police. I mean, he said it. And there are tens of millions of dollars of independent ads being spent by Ron Johnson’s allies, paid for by his two biggest donors, Diane Hendricks and the Uihleins who he got a $500 million tax break for, but Ron Johnson said that Mandela Barnes didn’t say that. If I’m the Democratic lawyers, I am already drafting letters to the TV stations saying he said it’s a lie, these ads need to come down.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s go ahead and go to a clip from the debate where they were talking about crime, and I’ll be told whether or not that clip is ready to play. But I know that, you know, crime and this message, objectively crime is bad in Milwaukee.

Bill McCoshen:

No question.

Frederica Freyberg:

And there’s some other cities in Wisconsin. But it’s also kind of the anecdote to the abortion issue in the suburbs, right, for female voters. But we do have this clip ready. Now — oh, apparently, we don’t have that clip ready. But as to that question, you know, pounding on crime for suburban voters.

Bill McCoshen:

I think it’s bigger than that. This cycle, it’s crime and it’s education. People got to see a different side of the public education system during COVID. And they didn’t like what they saw. And you see more and more people involved in their kids’ education now, which I think is a great thing overall. But they want changes, right? They don’t want CRT in classrooms, they want ABC’s in the classrooms. You’re going to see more ads, I think, about education over the final 30 days of this race, probably at the U.S. Senate level and definitely at the gubernatorial level because it’s an issue that suburban voters definitely care about.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s go to our clip where they spoke to crime.

Mandela Barnes:

What we need to do is make sure that communities have the resources they need to prevent crime from happening in the first place. That means fully funding our schools. It also means making sure that there are good paying jobs in communities. And we also invested $100 million in a law enforcement public safety and crime prevention initiatives through the American Rescue Plan, which Senator Johnson voted against because another instance where he decided to play politics instead of putting the safety of the people of Wisconsin first.

Ron Johnson:

The first thing you do is support law enforcement. Unfortunately lieutenant governor has not done that. He has a record of wanting to defund the police, and I know he doesn’t necessarily say that word, but he has a long history of being supported by people that are leading the effort to defund. He uses code words like Cori Bush said, talk about reallocate over-bloated police budgets. He says it pains him to see fully funded police budgets. So that’s his views.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you spoke to some of that earlier, but Bill, your reaction to that interchange?

Bill McCoshen:

Yeah, what happened to that $100 million that went to the city of Milwaukee? Crime is still on the rise, right? Where is the full accounting of where that money went? What has that done to reduce crime in Milwaukee? And when he talks about fully funding education, what does he mean by that? We’ve given more money to education every cycle over the last 12 years, and our test scores keep going down and down and down. We had new test scores out a week ago and the city of Milwaukee, Fred, for minority students, only 10%, 10% are proficient in reading and math. That’s a catastrophe for our society. That’s what we should be focusing on.

Scot Ross:

I understand wanting to move the discussion, but you know, the fact is, is that Ron Johnson is the one with the career of opposing funds for law enforcement. In 2011, Ron Johnson voted against a bill that provided $35 billion for cops, for firefighters and for teachers. He voted against it. So how can he — how can he say that he’s got the solutions for things? His solutions are some sort of convoluted melange of right-wing talking points rather than real solutions. I think that’s what the difference was tonight. Mandela Barnes laid out plans in order to move this country forward.

Scot Ross:

I don’t know that endorsements are the biggest thing in campaigns but as it relates to crime, it is a big deal. Who are the cops and sheriffs with? They’re with Ron Johnson. I think that says a lot.

Frederica Freyberg:

As to those endorsements, that was an error on the Barnes campaign, right, the police endorsements he had but then had to walk those back?

Scot Ross:

Yes, yes — in this campaign, about how the future of the nation is going to do and a possible end to democracy, two cops incorrectly put on a website, yeah, I — yes, I think he can own that.

Bill McCoshen:

There’s 13,000 cops statewide. He had 9. Two had to withdraw.

Frederica Freyberg:

Speaking of democracy, let’s take a listen to the exchange that they had about — the question was about the Electoral Count Reform Act, it morphed from there.

Mandela Barnes:

We all saw what happened on January 6. We also saw every conspiracy theory pedaled. We saw a senator attempt to send fake electors to the vice president, saying his involvement lasted a matter of seconds. That matter of seconds ended up with a whole day assault on the capitol.

Ron Johnson:

Let me clear things up here. I had no idea when I got a call from the lawyer, from the president of the Unite States, to deliver something to the vice president, did I have a staff member that could help out with that, I had no idea what it was. The fact of the matter was nothing was delivered. The whole episode took less than an hour but I wasn’t even involved.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m going to go to you first, Scot, on that.

Scot Ross:

I think, again, we’ve been talking about crime. Senator Ron Johnson helped, you know, helped and participated with support for the greatest crime against American Democracy ever committed in our 246-year history. I think that’s the good thing that Mandela did with both things with crime. One, he came and he said listen, who do you think has more experience with crime? Some guy who lives — some rich guy who lives in a gated community and has a $3 million guest home in Florida, who flies a private plane, or a guy who lives in Milwaukee who has had friends and family who have been the victims of crime.

Bill McCoshen:

Whatever people think about January 6th, whether they think minimize it or maximize it, I think that’s baked in. I don’t think it’s going to change a vote between now and November 8th, but I will say, I think they both got this right, on both pieces of it. The Electoral Count Act, I think that’s going to happen no matter who wins the Senate in 33 days. And they both said that Pence did the right thing. I agree with Johnson on that. Not every Republican agrees with us on that, but I think both Johnson and Barnes got both sides of that question right.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you say it’s baked in, but what do you think voters think when they hear Senator Johnson talking about his involvement in that entire thing?

Bill McCoshen:

I think they see Johnson as a fighter, right? And he pushes back. When he gets tough questions or he gets things that are worded that aren’t quite right, he pushes back. And I think people like that about him. They may not agree with everything that he says, but I think as it relates to January 6th, people have factored that in to how they’re going to make a decision in 33 days and that’s not one of the deciding factors for the undecideds. For undecideds, they’re for inflation, they’re for crime, they’re for education. Those are the same three issues they are for all voters.

Scot Ross:

I think I agree with Bill in terms of Senator Johnson does have a brand, particularly with Republicans, the way in which he talks but I don’t think he can walk away from the fact that 140 cops were injured, you know, and Mandela, or Lieutenant Governor Barnes went after the fact that you left those people high and dry. And the fact is, is that, yeah, will it change a voter? I don’t know at this point. But is it better to be reminded about the Trump-led insurrection for Democrats? I think so. I think it energizes Democrats.

Bill McCoshen:

Figure out how to buy the groceries on a Friday and fill your gas tank, you’re not thinking about January 6th.

Frederica Freyberg:

The other major issue that came up, of course, in this debate as we would expect is the issue of abortion. Let’s go ahead and take a listen to that.

Mandela Barnes:

Now, the senator called the overturning of Roe versus Wade a victory. He celebrated the Dobbs decision and he said if women don’t like the laws of their state, like the 1849 criminal abortion ban we have here, he said they can move. I can’t think of a more callus, out of touch or extreme position to take. If I were in the U.S. Senate, I would absolutely vote to codify Roe versus Wade to protect the right to an abortion and the right to choose once and for all to protect women’s rights.

Ron Johnson:

What I’ve recommended is let we the people decide with a one-time single-issue referendum that asked the decision we need to come to a decision on, which is at what point does society have the responsibility to protect life in the womb? We all agree society has responsibility to protect life but at what point does society have the responsibility to protect life in the womb? I want we the people to decide that. I would have one vote like every other Wisconsin citizen.

Frederica Freyberg:

So Bill, he wants this referendum, right, in the state of Wisconsin, which at this moment is not possible to take this direct referendum to the people on this matter. What is he doing?

Bill McCoshen:

I don’t agree with him on this one. So I think we will have a referendum in 33 days. On November 8th, the people will get to decide who their state legislature and their governor is. When Roe was overturned this went from a federal issue to a state issue. So I think it should be up to the state legislature. When Johnson said it was a victory, what he meant was it’s a victory for states’ rights. I agree with him on that. I don’t agree with him on the referendum idea but I thought he handled this question pretty well and I think he’s trying to show people he’s open minded on the abortion question.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is he?

Bill McCoshen:

Yeah, I think he is. He’s got exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother. There’s two ways to measure this. One is polling and it’s not a top issue on any national poll for independent voters, but Google searches. Right after the Roe decision, Google searches, abortion was number one. Now it’s way down the list and inflation is number one.

Scot Ross:

The fact is Ron Johnson has for ten years sponsored legislation that would have no exceptions for rape and incest. And the fact is 63% — in the last Marquette poll 63% of Wisconsinites support Roe versus Wade. I’m sorry they oppose the overturning of Roe versus Wade and 83% want those exceptions for rape and incest, something the Republican Party from Ron Johnson, Tim Michels and down the ticket are all voting — running against. They do not want exceptions, it’s very clear.

Frederica Freyberg:

It’s a tough issue for Republicans.

Bill McCoshen:

It is, but I don’t think it’s going to be decisive this year. If the economy was in worse shape, Fred, it may be a deciding issue, but with the economy in the situation it is right now with crime on the rise, with public schools on the decline, it’s just not making the cut.

Frederica Freyberg:

Isn’t that just a pivot?

Scot Ross:

Ron Johnson wants to increase crime by putting women and doctors behind bars. I mean, there you go, there’s a pivot to crime. That’s what he wants to do, he wants to criminalize healthcare decisions between women and their doctors. It’s as simple as that. With no exceptions for rape and incest.

Frederica Freyberg:

We are going to move along to another topic of great interest, and that is Social Security. We can go ahead and listen to that exchange.

Ron Johnson:

I want to save Social Security. I want to save Medicare. The greatest threat to Social Security and Medicare is the completely out of control deficit spending and our growing debt. We’ve added $7.5 trillion of new deficits over just the last three years. That is the greatest threat. That is also what sparked inflation. 40-year high inflation. Do you realize a dollar you held at the start of the Biden administration is only worth 88.3 cents.

Mandela Barnes:

Now it’s unfortunate that Senator Johnson said that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. There was even an instance where he called Social Security “candy.” He called Social Security candy. This is what’s keeping people who have worked their entire lives afloat, and the threat to take that away from them does not sit well with me, along with most other people. Now what we need to do is not just make Social Security solvent. We should strengthen Social Security. We can do that by making sure the wealthy pay their fair share. We need to make sure that billionaires are paying more into this system.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m going to go to you first, Scot, on this.

Scot Ross:

I think Lieutenant Governor Barnes said it best. Ron Johnson called Social Security a Ponzi scheme, he called it candy, he has done everything he can to put it on the chopping block. He will put it on the chopping block if he’s re-elected and Republicans are in control of the Congress.

Frederica Freyberg:

He says that he wants to save it.

Bill McCoshen:

Yeah, those were his words, and I think it was a good opportunity for him to tell a state-wide audience, this is my position on this issue. He was pretty clear about it. He wants to make it — he wants to bring it as part of the full budget discussion to make sure it can be protected. Right now it’s often in entitlements. 70% of the budget is off limits to the entire Congress.

Frederica Freyberg:

It is scary for people though to hear that.

Bill McCoshen:

Yeah, but I think it’s scary because Democrats are trying to make is scary for senior citizens. There’s no chance Ron Johnson is going to do away with Social Security and Medicare. No chance.

Scot Ross:

If you took away Social Security and Medicare, there would be no hospitals in rural Wisconsin. There would be no taverns in rural Wisconsin. There would be no restaurants in rural Wisconsin. There would be no shopping centers in rural Wisconsin. There would be no economy. The rural economy is influenced so hard by Social Security, not to mention that people would suffer, if Ron Johnson gets his way and takes away Social Security.

Frederica Freyberg:

So we have about a minute left, and I want to just ask you both your overriding sense of this appearance by these candidates in this really very important election.

Bill McCoshen:

I think the environmental factors are in Johnson’s favor, right? He’s in the lead right now on four of the last four polls. There will be a new Marquette poll out last week. The environment works to his advantage because the White House generally loses seats when they’re in power, right? Who’s ever in charge of the White House. If the president’s approval is above 50%, they generally lose about 7. If it’s below 50, they lose about 37. So the trajectory for the next 33 days is in Johnson’s favor, and I think he’s in good shape.

Scot Ross:

Anyone who watched tonight’s debate saw the future of the state of Wisconsin is Mandela Barnes’ leadership. He was articulate, he was well spoken, he was crisp, he was clear, he was definitive and he was on the side of the people of Wisconsin. Ron Johnson wasn’t. He was stumbling and bumbling.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We’ll leave it there with you both. Thank you very much for joining us and for your insight.

So turning now to field reporting that we have been bringing you every week, we are just four weeks out from the 2022 elections, and yet the 2020 election still casts a long shadow over the state. Many Republicans are still talking about voter fraud, leaving Democrats to worry that sweeping election law changes from the GOP would serve to disenfranchise Wisconsin voters. More on this from senior political reporter Zac Schultz.

Janel Brandtjen:

We know what happened in 2020.

Michael Gableman:

Powerful and rich forces are aligned against me.

Tim Michels:

Was it rigged, was it fixed?

Zac Schultz:

Republicans in Wisconsin have been amplifying Donald Trump’s debunked election conspiracy theories for nearly two years.

Rachel Rodriguez:

There’s absolutely no glamor in elections.

Zac Schultz:

And Rachel Rodriguez has heard them all.

Rachel Rodriguez:

Every time you think you have put one conspiracy theory to bed, it seems like another different one just pops up in its place.

Zac Schultz:

Rodriguez is an elections specialist in the Dane County Clerk’s office. She knows every step in the process. So when Republicans in the legislature started holding invitation-only hearings to give an official platform to election conspiracy theorists, she followed them closely.

Rachel Rodriguez:

It was readily apparent, you know, that within minutes, that the experts they were trotting out had absolutely no expertise in actual elections.

Zac Schultz:

Rodriguez started fact checking the hearings over Twitter. Soon, she was being re-tweeted by the chair of the Wisconsin Elections Commission. And gained an audience looking for the truth.

Rachel Rodriguez:

I think people were really looking for sort of a, you know, that other side of it, the actual expert side because that wasn’t happening at the hearings.

Zac Schultz:

Republicans hired former Supreme Court justice Michael Gabelman to lead an investigation on the 2020 election.

Michael Gabelman:

I will not answer any —

Zac Schultz:

But what he produced was open records violations, a contempt of court order and a million-dollar bill for taxpayers.

Robin Vos:

Mike Gableman is an embarrassment to the state.

Zac Schultz:

Gableman was fired after endorsing the primary opponent of Assembly Speaker Robin Vos, the man who hired him. Rodriquez says the cumulative effect was the truth around election conspiracies started to look like partisan politics.

Rachel Rodriguez:

Where the problem is right now is that when you have one party, and it is one party who is driving all of this misinformation and all of the conspiracies and all of the doubt, when you take the side of actual facts and truth, which is opposite to that, it’s going to look like it’s one party over the other.

Tim Michels:

I’m going to get rid of the Wisconsin Elections Commission.

Zac Schultz:

Tim Michels is the Republican candidate for governor. And while he doesn’t outright say the 2020 election was stolen, he does campaign with those that do. And even saluted Republican Tim Ramthun, a full-on election conspiracist who wanted to somehow reclaim Wisconsin’s 2020 electoral votes.

Tim Michels:

I see my friend out here, ran a spirited primary, Tim Ramthun, was very big on election integrity as well.

Zac Schultz:

At one event, Michels told a supporter in order to win, he had to overcome a cheating percentage.

Tim Michels:

What’s a cheating percentage? Probably a point or two.

Man:

Hard to say?

Tim Michels:

I think we’re going to come out —

Zac Schultz:

Tim Michels did not agree to an interview for this story.

Tony Evers:

For people to continue harboring that big lie, that’s not good for democracy. It’s not good for democracy at all. Senate Bill 292. Not approved.

Zac Schultz:

Democratic Governor Tony Evers vetoed a series of Republican bills that would have changed how elections are run in Wisconsin.

Tony Evers:

There we go, folks.

[applause]

Zac Schultz:

Michels has said he would sign those bills, and Democrats fear as governor, Michels could overturn Wisconsin’s presidential electoral votes in 2024.

Ben Wikler:

If they are in power and Trump comes calling, asking them to change an election result, we’ve seen that they’re willing to do anything to get Trump’s approval.

Zac Schultz:

Ben Wikler is chair of the Democratic Party of Wisconsin.

Ben Wikler:

This is a very serious moment in the history of our country and it’s hard to think of words that would be too strong to express the stakes in this fall’s election.

Paul Farrow:

You know, when you look at it, election integrity has been a great topic for everybody to get some fodder both ways.

Zac Schultz:

Paul Farrow is the chairman of the Republican Party of Wisconsin.

Paul Farrow:

When I look back at the 2020 election, there were some challenges. We know there are issues that are there that we have to figure out how to regulate and how to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

Rohn Bishop:

How can you lead the state if you’re afraid to tell the base of our party the truth?

Zac Schultz:

Rohn Bishop is the former chair of the Republican Party of Fond du Lac County. And he’s concerned the GOP’s obsession with 2020 will hurt them this fall.

Rohn Bishop:

Republicans should be looking at a tidal wave election. The one way to screw it up is to keep focusing on 2020, and we keep doing that. We just can’t turn the page and focus on 2022.

Zac Schultz:

Bishop was attacked by his own party members for pointing out Trump lost in Wisconsin because enough Republicans voted, but not for Trump.

Rohn Bishop:

The election is not stolen when Glenn Grothman is getting more votes than Donald Trump in the sixth congressional district. There was just a fall off. There were people who wanted to vote for Republican conservative principles but not Trump.

Zac Schultz:

Bishop says when Michels campaigns with Mike Gabelman and Trump, he risks alienating those same voters.

Rohn Bishop:

Coming into 2022, Tim Michels has to figure out how to get those 50,000 Republicans who voted Republican but not for Donald Trump.

Zac Schultz:

Since the last election, Bishop left party politics and was elected mayor of Waupun, a non-partisan office.

Rohn Bishop:

I just really want to focus on this job and give it all that I have.

Zac Schultz:

He’s still a Republican, but he worries others might have left the party for good.

Rohn Bishop:

Because of the hyper partisan nature of it and the negativity, we’re busy trying always to kick people out. The term they use in our party, the RINO, Republican In Name Only, I’ve been called that by people, because I didn’t think the election was stolen. Well, if you kick me out, and I don’t vote for you, you’re in a lot of trouble.

Zac Schultz:

So what impact will these conspiracy theories have on this election? For one, there will be a lot more people in the room when you cast your ballot. Paul Farrow says in 2020, Republicans had about 1300 election observers at the polls statewide.

Paul Farrow:

We are well over 5,000 this time around. We’ve got a lot more eyes that are watching the process.

Poll worker:

In the meantime, we’re going to start the other ones up. Ballot accepted.

Zac Schultz:

People like Christopher Bossert, a Republican from West Bend.

Christopher Bossert:

I had concerns about election integrity, and the best way to resolve those concerns one way or the other is to get involved. So I chose to volunteer for the Republican Party as a poll worker.

Zac Schultz:

Bossert says he still has concerns about voter fraud elsewhere in Wisconsin but is no longer worried about the Dominion voting machines used in his hometown, even if his neighbors aren’t convinced.

Christopher Bossert:

I have constituents who believe Dominion is a problem, and even though I’ve told them from what I can see, Dominion is not a problem, they still believe it.

Zac Schultz:

Reporting from Madison, I’m Zac Schultz for “Here & Now.”

Frederica Freyberg:

For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSwisconsin.org and then click on the news tab. And to learn about all the candidates in November, visit WisconsinVote.org. Join us again next week at 7:00 p.m. for the gubernatorial debate followed by our live “Here & Now” analysis. It’s all right here on PBS Wisconsin. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

Announcer:

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