Wisconsin Public Television

Transcript: Here and Now # 1816

Original Air Date: October 18, 2019

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” big farms, big controversies. Marisa Wojcik reports on a proposed CAFO in Burnett County. A closer look at next summer’s National Democratic Convention in Milwaukee with the man who lead the effort to land it. And an inside look at the gridlock relationship between our democratic governor and the republican-led legislature. It’s “Here & Now” for October 18.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

Frederica Freyberg:

A first look tonight at a controversy in northwest Wisconsin. That’s where an Iowa-based company is trying to build what would be the largest hog facility in the state. Over the last two decades, concentrated animal feeding operations like this one have increased threefold and Wisconsin communities are grappling with how to regulate these new neighbors. Marisa Wojcik brings us the story.

Ramona Moody:

Well, it’s only as complete as the numbers because it’s two different sets of numbers.

Marisa Wojcik:

Ramona Moody spent her summer doing research.

Ramona Moody:

This is Burnett County. And this section here is Trade Lake Township. And where this arrow is pointing to is the proposed 26,350 hog CAFO.

Marisa Wojcik:

She works in real estate and lives on five acres of land with her husband in Trade Lake, Wisconsin.

Ramona Moody:

We’ve raised our family here. We’ve had three kids. We love the setting. We’ve got the garden. We’ve done animals. We’ve been here for 30 years. Thirty years’ worth of love here and we want to keep it that way.

Marisa Wojcik:

But a proposal to build a $20 million, 26,000 head hog facility in her backyard is threatening that way of life. So she’s been researching the ins and outs of concentrated animal feeding operations or CAFOs.

Ramona Moody:

The ground water quality…

Marisa Wojcik:

Word of the proposal first came when Jeff Sauer attended a town board meeting and announced intentions for a swine operation.

Jeff Sauer:

I proposed to the Town of Trade Lake that we were looking at their township in January of this year. And it was my desire to be transparent and discuss and disclose what we’re looking at doing.

Ramona Moody:

I’m thinking that he was probably hoping that we were a sleepy community, where they could just move in, it’d be here and we wouldn’t be able to resist because it was too late.

Man:

The contract was signed in June.

Marisa Wojcik:

Ramona Moody started having conversations with other residents in opposition.

Andy Marshall:

Well, it’s a pretty big deal for this community.

Marisa Wojcik:

Like Andy Marshall.

Andy Marshall:

My understanding is that this is going to be, if not the largest, one of the largest hog CAFOs in the state. There isn’t anything like this in this area, in this county. And it has the potential to have significant environmental impacts, significant impacts on property values and potential health impacts. So it’s a big deal.

Marisa Wojcik:

The Trade Lake area has a history of farming, but there’s been a steady decline of land used for agriculture and a shift toward tourism and real estate. In the last ten years, annual home sales have shot up 330%. But news of tens of thousands of perspective hogs moving into the area is making homeowners uneasy. The Wisconsin Department of Revenue has found that properties close to CAFOs lose value.

Ramona Moody:

The statements that we’ve heard is if I would have known that this was coming in, I would never have bought.

Frederica Freyberg:

This map is the watershed for Trade Lake. Both Big Trade and Little Trade are on the impaired waters list for high phosphorus.

Frederica Freyberg:

Already?

Frederica Freyberg:

Yes, already.

Marisa Wojcik:

All CAFO operations must apply for a permit with the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources to protect nearby waters. Additionally, local governments can choose to adopt stricter regulations over things like odor, waste storage and run-off.

Jeff Sauer:

DATCP is a little bit more strict than DNR because they want more details. But at the end of the day, we still have to comply with the requirements.

Dorothy Richards:

What I’m most concerned about is our water.

Marisa Wojcik:

Dorothy Richards is on the Burnett County Board of Supervisors and she represents the Trade Lake area.

Dorothy Richards:

I believe it was in May I started getting calls from people in Trade Lake.

Marisa Wojcik:

From there, Burnett County passed a moratorium on any new facilities like this one from being built.

Dorothy Richards:

Just puts a halt on any further CAFOs until the county can study it.

Marisa Wojcik:

The year-long moratorium is to decide if additional local ordinances are required to protect public health and safety in Burnett County. As well as determine whether the county has enough resources to monitor and enforce rules. But the moratorium doesn’t apply to Jeff Sauer’s application.

Ramona Moody:

So they submitted their application shortly before the vote was to take place at the county.

Andy Marshall:

People who are wanting to support the siting of the CAFO in this area say that these issues are not a concern, that they won’t materialize and harm. But the fact is nobody knows that right now. So the reasonable response would be to find out if these things are going to be a problem.

Woman:

Thank you for attending this public hearing on the proposed livestock facility siting rules.

Marisa Wojcik:

Recently the Department of Agriculture held a series of public hearings to get input about changing the siting rules, which some farmers are saying are too restrictive and end up costing them more. In turn, it forces them to grow in size in order to make ends meet.

Male Farmer:

In the last two years, we have spent $3 million to meet the regulations that they want us to meet. That $3 million, you have to pay for it somehow. And how do people pay for it? It requires you to expand.

Marisa Wojcik:

And that it’s putting family farms out of business.

Another Male Farmer:

The thing that people don’t think about is a family can’t sustain that. A growing family farm can’t sustain those costs. Whereas the big boys, it’s no problem for them.

Marisa Wojcik:

Farmers want the right to farm, but residents want the right to enjoy their land. Diane and Steve Pasno live in Watertown and they spoke to their experience of living next to a CAFO.

Diane Pasno:

You’re impeded from enjoying the naturalness of our property due to the odors. We’re impeded from walking the roads due to CAFO-related semi-truck traffic and to simply live our lives.

Steve Pasno:

Our dream of living the picturesque Wisconsin rural life in our current home has been shattered. Coupled with our local, state and federal governmental bodies’ unresponsiveness has devastated our current home life as we know it.

Marisa Wojcik:

Residents of Trade Lake are worried that this will happen to them. And because Wisconsin is a Right-To-Farm state, it’s difficult to bring nuisance lawsuits against farmers.

Jeff Sauer:

We want to be a good neighbor, good to the community and good for the people in general. Unfortunately, it was not received that way.

Marisa Wojcik:

Good neighbors. In a rural community, it’s all about knowing your neighbors. And that’s where a lot of anxiety is coming from. They don’t exactly know who their new neighbor will be and this is where it gets confusing.

But you said you’re a consultant?

Jeff Sauer:

Well, I am. I will be part owner of that site up there as well.

Andy Marshall:

Jeff Sauer recently testified in a deposition that he’s essentially on a contingent fee arrangement with Cumberland LLC where he’s doing whatever he can to get this facility sited, but he’s not going to get paid unless the facility is up and running.

Marisa Wojcik:

The DNR says permits are issued to the operation itself. In this case Cumberland LLC, but Cumberland LLC isn’t owned by Jeff Sauer, but a major hog producer out of Iowa.

Andy Marshall:

I’ve looked at some of the documents for the LLC that have been filed with the state, and my understanding of those documents is that they reflect that the owners are affiliated with an outfit called Suidae Health and Production from Iowa.

Jeff Sauer:

Suidae is a management veterinarian company. They’re health and production. They’re not technically owners of swine. So they basically have a clientele that own hogs and they service and do the management of the production side.

Marisa Wojcik:

Jeff Sauer refers to this as contract farming and it’s common practice. Farmers don’t have to personally take on all of the costs, debts and risk. For Ramona Moody, it comes back to not knowing her neighbor.

Ramona Moody:

And that’s where we come back to they’re an LLC. They can pick up and they can move on when–at the moment is right for them, leaving us with what’s left behind: the clean-up. Whatever they’ve left in their facilities. That ends up becoming our responsibility. So who holds them accountable?

Jeff Sauer:

To be honest with you, they all have a preconceived idea they don’t want it. So it really doesn’t matter what I could say. They have CAFOs in their backyard currently.

Marisa Wojcik:

There is another CAFO in the county less than five miles away from the proposed hog farm. Four Cubs Dairy has been a family farm since 1877 and began with 45 cows. Today, according to its DNR permit, it has just over 1,000 cows. Andy Marshall doesn’t take issue with smaller CAFO that’s proven their investment in the community.

Andy Marshall:

This type of movement didn’t occur until people became aware there was this 26,000 hog CAFO that wanted to move in down the road. People were not scrambling to regulate, for example, Four Cubs CAFO. People weren’t scrambling to regulate other smaller farming operations. I think that’s the biggest misconception. And I think it’s a misconception that might be intentionally created to get farmers up in arms and say we can’t be further regulated.

Marisa Wojcik:

There is no limit on the number of animals a farm can have, as long as they comply with regulations. However, this is currently being litigated. For Jeff Sauer, large-scale farming is the future and a reality of economic efficiency.

Jeff Sauer:

I’m an advocate of all phases of ag, small and large, if you can prove to me you can make the numbers work.

Marisa Wojcik:

The numbers for small farms aren’t working. Last year, Wisconsin lost two dairy farms per day. On a recent Wisconsin visit, U.S. Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue made headlines when he stated that when it comes to family farms in America, the big get bigger and the small get out. For Ramona Moody, she doesn’t think this should come at a cost to her.

Ramona Moody:

I agree people should be able to do what they want on their own property. But it shouldn’t affect your neighbors.

Marisa Wojcik:

Reporting from Burnett County, I’m Marisa Wojcik.

Frederica Freyberg:

The dispute over the proposed 26,000-head hog operation has gotten so contentious that there’s a lawsuit to remove the Town of Trade Lake board chair from his position for financial conflict of interest in his dealings with the project.

Next, we turn to a look at some companion reporting on CAFOs in Wisconsin and for that we go to Will Cushman, reporter for WisContext, a partner project with Wisconsin Public Television. Hey, Will.

Will Cushman:

Hi. How’s it going?

Frederica Freyberg:

Good. So what will your reporting be looking into it?

Will Cushman:

Well, as we saw in Marisa’s piece, one of the most contentious things about these large livestock facilities is the odors that can emanate from them and what that can mean for neighbors. So we’re going to do a deep dive into odors. Everything about odors, the science of odors, livestock odors. How they differ between livestock and some of the science involved in odor management.

Frederica Freyberg:

Good thing this is a printed piece, right? But the Department of Ag has what’s regarded as controversial updates concerning how potential odors figure into the siting applications and you’re looking at those updates as well?

Will Cushman:

That’s true. And yes. So right now, DATCP uses what’s called an odor score sheet, where they — for an applicant for one of these large livestock facilities, they have to fill out the score sheet and a whole bunch of practices get a number as do a whole bunch of other things related to the facility and its location and where neighbors are. They are looking to go away from that worksheet, which someone at DATCP told me is a bit of a black box and not very many people understand what goes into it. And they’re looking at going to mandatory setbacks as a way to control odors from these large facilities.

Frederica Freyberg:

Because really how are odors measured? It seems like that would be really subjective.

Will Cushman:

You know, it can be. I’ve spoken to some researchers. And there are a whole bunch of different ways that odors can be detected. There are different tools and methods. But one researcher that I spoke to from Minnesota who does a lot of livestock odor work said the gold standard is still the human nose. And there are various ways you can try to get less subjective and be more subjective using the human nose as a standard for detecting odors. We’re going to look into that.

Frederica Freyberg:

You’re also looking at Wisconsin’s Right-To-Farm Law. What is that and how does it figure into CAFOs?

Will Cushman:

Yeah. So that’s another piece of the reporting that we’re doing. The Right-To-Farm Law is a law that I think a lot of people aren’t very familiar with. It was passed in Wisconsin in the early 1980s as Right-To-Farm Laws all over the nation were passed around that time. We’re looking into it because it figures prominently in some of these neighbor disputes. It really provides farmers with a lot of protections against nuisance claims and nuisance lawsuits to the point that some neighbors say is a little bit of overreach.

Frederica Freyberg:

We leave it there. Will Cushman, thanks very much.

Will Cushman:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Starting Monday, you can see Will’s reporting by going to WisContext.org.

As partisans in Washington duke it out and Democratic presidential candidates try to win favor on the debate stage, the city of Milwaukee looks ahead to next summer’s Democratic National Convention and all that it brings. In tonight’s closer look, we sat down with DNC Host Committee Finance Chair and Vice-President of the Milwaukee Bucks, Alex Lasry. We started by asking how many people are expected to descend on Milwaukee for the convention next July.

Alex Lasry:

The convention will have over 50,000 people that’ll be coming into Wisconsin. Many people who probably haven’t been here before or otherwise wouldn’t be visiting Wisconsin during that summer. So this is an opportunity to have a lot of people who otherwise weren’t going to come here, see Wisconsin for the first time. And give them a first impression and to show them a reason to come back. And my hope for this convention is that what we’re able to do is put Wisconsin on the map in a way that it otherwise couldn’t be. Because not only will we have 50,000 people coming in, but we’ll have millions upon millions of people watching it on TV and seeing how Wisconsin holds up under the national spotlight. So this is more than just a political convention. This is an opportunity to out Milwaukee as a top tier city in the country.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is the expected economic impact?

Alex Lasry:

So we’re looking at about a $200 million plus economic impact for the state of Wisconsin. That is based on previous conventions. So Philly, Charlotte, Denver all had things probably north of $200 million. We think we’ll have something north of that. And I think beyond that, though, the immediate economic impact is great. Bars, restaurants, businesses that’ll be used to help put on the convention. That’ll all be great to have that type of impact. I think what’s more important, though, is what do years two, three and four after the convention look like? Are we still seeing an economic impact from the convention? Are we seeing more convention business? Are we getting similar national profiles and stories coming out on Wisconsin, on cities like Madison, Milwaukee, Racine, Kenosha? Those are the type of things that you can’t really put a value on, which is why I think when you talk about an economic impact, you need to talk about it more than just in dollar terms. You need to talk about it also in terms of media and what it can do for the future of these cities and state.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’ve seen that Milwaukee is described as the smallest host city for a convention since 1988. What is the status right now as to whether or not there are enough hotel rooms even with nearly half of the delegates going into Illinois?

Alex Lasry:

So you know, I led the bid. When we put in the bid, you had to be able to show that you had 20,000 hotel rooms within a 20 to 30-minute drive. They wouldn’t have chosen us as a finalist and they wouldn’t have chosen us as the city, if we didn’t have –meet that qualification. So from a hotel perspective, we have enough hotel rooms to be able to host the convention without any being in Illinois. What they’ve done is they decided was they wanted to put a select number of the total hotel rooms, so they, I think, only used about 3,000 of the rooms in Illinois. There are still going to be another 15,000 to 20,000 rooms that the DNC is going to place and probably another 10,000 to 15,000 more rooms on top of that that people just coming into Wisconsin will need to utilize. So I’m not as worried about where people are staying, whether they’re staying in Illinois or Milwaukee or in Wisconsin. I think it’s actually kind of neat that people are willing to stay in Rosemont, Illinois to come to Milwaukee. And that’s how bad people want to come to Milwaukee, because the demand is so high to be near Milwaukee that they’re willing to stay in Illinois, an hour away, to be able to come to the city to participate in the convention. So I think that’s great. I couldn’t be more thrilled that people want to do that and looking forward to people making that trip more and more after the convention.

Frederica Freyberg:

You chaired, as you said, the bid committee but you also had the non-profit group raising $70 million to support this convention. How’s that effort going?

Alex Lasry:

It’s going really well. I think one of the things we most were able to show the DNC was the commitment that the state of Wisconsin, the business community, had to making sure that this is successful. So we actually doubled the fund-raising that cities like Houston and Miami were able to raise in the bid process. So I think we started with a really strong number. We were able to raise $10 million during the bid process. I think we’re now well on our way to getting to that $70 million mark. Now we’re opening up to national sponsors and talking to a lot of people who don’t look at this as a partisan exercise, but they look at this as a way to reach a bunch of customers who are going to be coming into Milwaukee. And they look at it as a way to help build up a city and be a part of a city entering a new market.

Frederica Freyberg:

What if the eventual nominee bans corporate donations to help fund the event, as candidate Bernie Sanders has said he would?

Alex Lasry:

So I think what we’ve really looked at is we’re trying to, right now, worry about putting on the convention. So we’ll take and work with whoever the eventual nominee is. But right now, we’re moving forward with the belief that the DNC has to pay for the convention and we’re moving forward with kind of all the people that we’ve been talking to and that we’ve been working with. I think what we’re really trying to show though is, look, the host committee is a nonpartisan entity. This is not — the DNC and the host committee are two separate entities. And the host committee is raising money not from a partisan basis, but on a nonpartisan basis. And that’s something that we are continuing to show and are continuing to preach that message.

Frederica Freyberg:

As voters look ahead to the day when President Donald Trump has a single nominee to run against, the run-up to that brings us debate stages with a dozen candidates. And meanwhile, state politics mirrors Washington in conflict and consternation. In tonight’s inside look, a check-in with former State Senator and Emeritus Professor Mordecai Lee. Thanks very much for being here.

Mordecai Lee:

Thanks for inviting me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So first, on the big stage, national politics. You described this week’s Democratic debate as good news for Wisconsin. How so?

Mordecai Lee:

Our April primary sometimes comes so late in the process that either the nomination is essentially wrapped up or it’s only down to let’s say two candidates. That’s what happened last time. I think when you looked at the debate, you saw that there are several long-distance runners. They were marathon runners either because they’ve got a good capability of raising money or they’ve got a good capability of appealing to certain demographics. So, in other words, some people will do well in New Hampshire and Iowa, but even if the ones, those long-distance runners, even if they don’t come in first or second or third, if they’ve got the money, they’re going to last a long time. And so I think by the time we get to voting in April in our primary, I think we’re going to have four, five, six candidates, all viable and it’ll be meaningful for people to vote in that.

Frederica Freyberg:

But aren’t voters getting antsy for the field to be significantly narrowed?

Mordecai Lee:

No. You want me to elaborate on that. I think voters like choice. The thing about, let’s say having four or five or six candidates is that each one of them will occupy a niche. It might be a niche based on demographics. It might be a niche based on geography. It might be a niche based on ideology. But people will be able to say, “I don’t like those 3 but I really like this one or two and I’m going to end up voting for so and so.” I think choice is always a good thing for voters.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s go to state politics. You’ve got some fascinating takes on Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald’s run for Congress. You ask will he go more partisan to grab the Republican base or less so to appear more statesman-like. What do you think?

Mordecai Lee:

I think it’s really impressive that when there’s a vacant Congressional seat, one that hasn’t been vacant for 30, 40 years, that he essentially has become the nominee. The same thing happened in Paul Ryan’s seat. The Republican Party is very well-organized. They’ve got a machine. So if he’s now the de facto Republican nominee, that he’s got it in the bag, question is what does he do while he’s waiting for the election until next November? As majority leader, does he become more partisan, so in Waukesha County he’s really mobilizing his base, really electrifying conservatives? Or does he want to become more sort of statesman-like, more congressional? Does he go more moderate? My guess is it’s going to be the former rather than the latter. In other words, always keep your base in mind. That’s how you win elections. And so that probably means that for the next year and for any special sessions, he’ll be sort of the same old Fitz.

Frederica Freyberg:

How difficult do Donald Trump’s troubles make it for Scott Fitzgerald to go that uber partisan?

Mordecai Lee:

Well, I think if you’re running in the Sensenbrenner district, that is such an overwhelmingly Republican district that there’s an incentive to be conservative and to be supportive of the president because that’s sort of what the base wants. I can’t imagine that district going democratic. I mean maybe if there’s a Noah’s flood, a political flood, that maybe, maybe a Democrat would have a chance. But otherwise he doesn’t have to worry about it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let me ask you about the governor’s veto power. We have this one-two punch between a lawsuit that just hit the State Supreme Court and the Republican Legislature to limit the governor’s veto power. Now you know we’ve been down this road before, but what’s your prediction about whether Governor Tony Evers’ keeps his powerful veto pen?

Mordecai Lee:

I think it’s pretty low because a Constitutional amendment or a decision by the Supreme Court right now would tend not to have much influence for the governor. After all, the Supreme Court is 5-2 conservative. It’s de facto republican. A constitutional amendment, a governor plays no role. A governor can’t veto a constitutional amendment. So I suspect that he’s going to lose on the constitutional amendment and he’s going to lose before the State Supreme Court.

Frederica Freyberg:

So there goes the veto pen.

Mordecai Lee:

Not quite, but it’ll be limited.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Mordecai Lee, thanks very much for joining us.

Mordecai Lee:

Thank you, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now for an update on Wisconsin’s U.S. House elections. Two Democrats have entered the race for the 7th Congressional District. They are Wausau School Board President and Ho-Chunk Supreme Court Justice Tricia Zunker, who says she’s running to be “a voice for the people of northwest Wisconsin.” Businessman and Vietnam veteran Lawrence Dale also announced his bid this week, saying his campaign focus includes bringing good-paying jobs to the district. In the 5th District in southeast Wisconsin, State Senator Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald announced this week that former Governor Tommy Thompson has endorsed his candidacy. Representative Jim Sensenbrenner who currently holds the seat is not seeking re-election. And today Governor Tony Evers announced the date for the special election to fill Sean Duffy’s 7th Congressional seat. That election will take place on May 12. The primary will be on February 18. That’s all for tonight’s program. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.