Announcer:

The following program is a “Here & Now 2022” election special. Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Zac Schultz:

Good evening. I’m Zac Schultz. Tonight on “Here & Now,” our political panel sizes up the gubernatorial debate we just watched. I’m joined by Paul Farrow, the chairman of the Republican Party of Wisconsin and Democratic State Senator Kelda Roys. Thank you both for being here tonight.

Paul Farrow:

Thanks for having us.

Kelda Roys:

Good to be with you.

Zac Schultz:

Let’s get some initial reactions. Paul, let’s start with you. What did you hear? What were your immediate takeaways?

Paul Farrow:

You know, I think what we saw tonight was a true difference and really what it came down to is leadership. Tim Michels has been in the private sector. He’s got plans that he’s looking as he moves forward. And we look at Governor Evers. He’s been in the position for the last three and a half plus years, failed leadership in a number of different way. As I looked at the notes that I was going through, he kept talking back to COVID and some of the challenges they had through there. And actually said that COVID was a success in getting people to come here and dealing with our worker shortage. It was just the opposite. It actually turned people away. So I think there’s some challenges we have but what I really heard was a clear difference in the leadership styles that we’re going to see as we move forward.

Zac Schultz:

Kelda, what do you think?

Kelda Roys:

Well, I agree that there’s a huge contrast between Governor Evers, who reiterated his commitment to public education, funding public safety, funding local governments, protecting a woman’s right to choose, protecting our environment and Tim Michels who didn’t bring any specifics but all of this statements show he is too radical, too extreme for Wisconsin. We are not a radical state. We are a purple state. We’re a reasonable, modern Midwestern state and Tim Michels is way out of step.

Zac Schultz:

One of the big issues that dominates this election is inflation. We’re going to hear from the candidates in just a second but I want to read the results of a poll, a Harvard-Harris Poll. This is a national result but they asked does inflation make you more likely to vote for which party? 43% said GOP, 35% said Democrats, 22% said it did not affect them at all. Let’s listen to what the candidates had to say about inflation.

Tony Evers:

To mitigate against inflation, we’re going to lower our taxes on the middle-class folks in the state of Wisconsin by 10%. We’re going to get rid of the minimum markup law in gasoline which could save people up to $.30 on a gallon and also some tax credit issues. But most importantly, the one that is most important is the one about childcare, a childcare credit. That way we’re giving people the money to keep the money and we can mitigate against inflation.

Tim Michels:

Joe Biden, leak on inflation. Cancelling the Keystone pipeline. What can we do? We can put more money in people’s pockets. I’m a businessman. I understand macroeconomics. I understand how to read a balance sheet. I’m going to do everything I can to put more money in people’s pockets to help them with the price at the pump and the surging price of groceries. We’re going to do massive tax reform, get more money in people’s pockets here in Wisconsin and the hard working, tax paying people of Wisconsin will spend more of that money on goods and services, helping make our economy here even more robust.

Zac Schultz:

Kelda, let’s start with you. Governor Evers laid out some things. Is that going to resonate with voters who are going and paying $4, $5 for a dozen eggs?

Kelda Roys:

I think so. Governor Evers actually has the record to show. He delivered a 15% tax cut for the middle class. And this is in contrast to Republicans who they often give tax breaks to the wealthiest and they don’t trickle down. But Governor Evers has promised another 10% and in fact, he’s already worked to put part of our $5.4 billion surplus back into the hands of tax payers. By contrast, Tim Michels has a plan that’s going to weigh taxes more heavily on lower income people and benefit millionaires and billionaires like himself. And that again, that’s a program that’s not going to benefit the average Wisconsinite.

Zac Schultz:

Paul, we heard about Biden and the Keystone Pipeline but nothing specific about Wisconsin and what he would do as governor.

Paul Farrow:

Yeah, I think what you’ve got to understand and you look at track records, you’ve got to keep in mind, Governor Evers in his two budgets that he proposed proposed over a billion dollars of new taxes in each budget. He claims he had a tax cut, as you said, a 15% tax cut. That was the budget he signed that the Republican legislature created. And he signed and took credit for because he signed his name on the bottom. When I did that in college, if I would have done that in college, it would have been considered plagiarism. I think the challenge we have right now is the average person is spending over $700 a year, excuse me, $700 a month more than a year ago for doing the exact same thing. What we’re seeing right now is the governor saying that he’s proposing a tax cut to — about 10% to the middle class, still not sure exactly where he’s going to get that from, tax credits he didn’t want to really talk about, remove the minimum markup and then the childcare credit. There’s some ideas he has there but we’re not seeing where the impact is going to be on those.

Zac Schultz:

But specifically what will Michels do, what can the governor do?

Paul Farrow:

He has talked about on the road about providing a flat tax. So looking at some sort of revenue reduction. When you look at a budget that has a $4 billion surplus, I think Tim Michels said it later on in the conversation that he wants to give that money back to the people. We have to be looking forward to figure out what we’re going to do. The biggest challenge we have when it comes to inflation is a lot of it is at the federal level. They’ve messed it up so much there’s not much we’re going to be able to fix right away here.

Zac Schultz:

We just said the federal level, so what can any governor do except take the blame for inflation?

Kelda Roys:

Well, inflation is a global problem and it’s unfortunate that it’s being used as political cudgel because that’s sort of divorced from how economics works but I think there are concrete steps that Governor Evers is proposing specifically to gas tax, doing a holiday, that’s something Michels has refused to commit to. He’s urged the Biden administration to suspend gas taxes and work to repeal the minimum markup for gas. So those are really concrete steps. On child care, Michels doesn’t even have a plan to address child care. Evers understands the cost of child care is unaffordable and that’s hurting our workforce and our small businesses and that’s why he’s proposed concrete tax credits to help caregivers and families.

Zac Schultz:

One thing I want to frame for our viewers is how do you win elections. You can either win the small number of swing voters and independents in Wisconsin or you can turn out your base. Obviously we’re going to have a drop-off from the presidential election so when it comes to an issue like inflation or any of these, which ones are base issues and which ones are going to be swing independents? Does — we just heard that stat about 22% of people don’t care but otherwise Republicans have the advantage on inflation. Is this a base issue for the governor to have a detailed plan or is he going to win independents with that?

Kelda Roys:

I think he is going to win independents because he has specifics and he can show his work. Governor Evers has made investments that are needed in public education. We went from 18th under the devastating cuts of Walker to 8th in the nation which is back where we should be. We are a public education state. He’s made over $100 million in investments in public safety. Again, helping our communities be safe. Every single law enforcement agency in the state received money thanks to Governor Evers.

Zac Schultz:

Inflation is base or is it for swing voters from Michels’ perspective?

Paul Farrow:

When you look at it, I think it’s in the swing voters, it’s going to be important. Governor Evers talked about the Marquette poll a couple of times. When you look at the numbers in the Marquette poll, the independents are looking at inflation as one of their top two concern categories. You’ve seen the move that occurred in that Marquette poll. People are starting to realize we need a difference in leadership when it comes to the governor because he hasn’t done the job yet.

Zac Schultz:

One of the things we’re talking about is shared revenue and the amount of money that will be available in the next budget. Governor Evers has said repeatedly he wants to see more money go to the local communities. Let’s hear what they had to say.

Tim Michels:

There’s plenty of money in government. There’s $43.5 billion spent every year. Those are the taxpayers’ money. I’m going to sit down with the legislature and the smart people, my lieutenant governor Roger Roth, we’re going to make sure we come up with the right formulas and we are going to adequately make sure there’s funding for the issues that people of Wisconsin are so concerned about.

Tony Evers:

Next budget, it is my top priority. We’re going to have 4% each year of the biennium and that helps these people do the hard work. Whether it’s around crime. Whether it’s around social services. You name it, they do the hard work.

Woman:

Thank you, your time is up.

Tony Evers:

They need to have the resources.

Woman:

We need to move on now.

Zac Schultz:

So when we talk about base turnout versus swing, does anyone get excited about shared revenue? Even though it’s extremely important, is that something that can resonate with a voter who doesn’t really follow politics?

Kelda Roys:

I think people know very well if their communities have the resources they need to have things like good public parks, to have clean water, to have police and fire service, public health. All these things are day to day important work government does and Governor Evers has a plan to fund it and Tim Michels does not. Again, that’s a huge contrast. If you want to talk about funding the police, Governor Evers has funded the police. Tim Michels and his Republican colleagues including my friend Paul, we served together, he was on the Finance Committee for years. Republicans cut and cut and cut and cut shared revenue which means inevitably cuts to police and fire.

Zac Schultz:

Joint Finance does not like to give money to Milwaukee and other large cities. They have held that flat for quite a while.

Kelda Roys:

Or towns?

Zac Schultz:

Do you see that changing under Tim Michels’ leadership?

Paul Farrow:

Quick correction, I was never on Joint Finance.

Kelda Roys:

Oh, you were not.

Paul Farrow:

No, but when you look at shared revenue, I think part of the challenge you hear, you hear the governor talk about it, he wants to provide a 4%, 4% year over year. The issue is people — again I agree with you, they don’t see what shared revenue is. They like their parks, they like to see what’s happening. I think the key position there you have to hear though is, Tim Michels as governor is going to reach out to the legislature to work with them. Governor Evers hasn’t done that in the last cycle. When you think about the number of times that a legislative leadership should meet with the governor and as the leader of the state, the governor should be pushing that to say, ok guys, let’s figure out how to get this done. He’s got the fewest visitations and meetings with legislative leaders of any governor we’ve had in a while.

Kelda Roys:

The legislature wasn’t really working for most of the last session too.

Zac Schultz:

Especially during COVID, but one of the big impacts of shared revenue is about crime at the local level. It’s been one of Governor Evers’ main talking points. We’re going to hear from Tim Michels and then Evers on this.

Tim Michels:

Crime is running rampant. Crime went down in America from 30 years ago until two years ago, but in the last two years, there’s been a tremendous spike. I believe it is a byproduct of the defund the police movement. We got to this crazy spot in America where less cops is better or police are bad. I don’t buy that at all. I have the endorsement of multiple police associations.

Tony Evers:

It isn’t just about talking tough, believe me. It is about providing the resources so that those police officers can do the job. The training that maybe needs to happen and we put over a million dollars or excuse me $100 million during the pandemic for the Milwaukee area and other places across the state of Wisconsin for violence prevention, for local officers and police officers.

Zac Schultz:

All right, Paul, Tim Michels said that during his inaugural address, he’s going to have a speech for criminals. Do criminals watch inaugural addresses?

Paul Farrow:

That would be interesting to see if they do. I think what you’re looking at here, again, is the leadership of Tony Evers. He was talking that he’s given law enforcement over $100 million. The money he’s talking about is the federal Cares Act money or the ARPA money that’s out there. It’s not money from the state. It is short term money that’s going to solve — it’s not even a band-aid in this situation. It’s going to solve a very short term issue. He hasn’t looked at long term issues on how we’re going to solve this. He talked a little bit about shared revenue. The challenge we have though is again, you look at his track record. When he came in, he talked about reducing the number of people in prison. Leadership. When he came in, he was talking about — actually when he talked about the parole program, he fired the chairman after one case. But how many cases after that did we still have individuals coming out? And the last thing I’m going to say about it, because again, he brought it up, is when you look at a leadership position, you want someone who tells the people in the public, all right, let’s just calm down and take a moment before we react. The first statement that he put out in the Kenosha riots and we talked about earlier, is while we do not have all the details yet, what we know for certain is that he is not the first Black man or person to have been shot or injured or mercilessly killed it at the hands of individuals in law enforcement in our state or country. That’s not what you want to hear from your leader.

Zac Schultz:

Kelda, we’ve heard a lot about leadership. That was a word that came up over and over and Tim Michels said he’s going to be a bold leader. What is leadership? We didn’t hear any of that defined.

Kelda Roys:

I think a leader is someone who makes a commitment to fund our public schools so that we can have an economic future and so that people want to live in this state. Governor Evers has pledged to do that. Tim Michels by contrast has said that continuing to fund public education is, “the definition of insanity.” Leadership is showing up and funding our public services. Governor Evers has delivered over $100 million, and yes, he spent federal money because the state legislature, which is controlled by Republicans, refused to do their job and allocate adequate funds. He did that. You know, Tim Michels, on the other hand, has suggested that communities with rising crime should actually have their funding be cut. Now, people might think, oh, well, that’s just going to affect Madison and Milwaukee and it’s a little bit of a dog whistle but it’s actually the smallest communities in Wisconsin that are going to be hurt the most because they have the least capability to weather those kind of cuts.

Zac Schultz:

Education is part of that issue, and it’s part of all these issues that are all tied together, the candidates, of course, addressed that. We’re going to hear from Tim Michels first.

Tim Michels:

Every parent is a taxpayer so they should all equally have the benefit of those tax dollars to educate their kids. Our education system is broken in Wisconsin. What do I mean by that? The test scores continue to go down. The state tests, the Forward tests, bad numbers, getting worse. The national test, the NAEP test, the numbers continue to go down.

Tony Evers:

We do need more resources. We need to make sure we have more special education money. We need to make sure mental health money. We need to make sure that our literacy program is making the top readers in the state.

Zac Schultz:

Paul, Tim Michels said — to a different question, he said he’s going to spend as much on education as any other governor, but he also has made statements in the past about giving more money to schools is insanity. So how do those two work together?

Paul Farrow:

I think what you heard in one of the questions out there is how are you going to pay for two parallel systems? And we hear this all the time, that there are two systems: the voucher program and the public schools. There aren’t two systems. There’s one. It’s the success of the students. And what we need to look at is how are we succeeding with our students? If you keep talking about the dollars, which is what Governor Evers keeps talking about, in fact, when the First Lady Jill Biden was here, they were at a school and she was praising them for throwing so much money at schools, except the school she was at, their proficiency for math was zero. their proficiency for English was 1. This is the challenge that we have. The governor continues to say we’ve got good systems. I think some of the public schools are very good schools but we’ve got other ones that are failing, and throwing money at them isn’t the answer. We’ve got to find a way, and I think you look what Tim Michels is trying to do is say let’s get the parents involved. We know there’s success with the voucher programs when we have the parents involved in the education system. Let’s make sure all parents are involved in their kids’ future.

Zac Schultz:

So Kelda, how much of a base turnout is this when the governor talks about education?

Kelda Roys:

It’s hard to imagine an issue that is more fundamental for Wisconsin voters than public education. We are the education state and we cannot afford to keep sending our taxpayer dollars to private, unaccountable voucher schools, which do not have to meet the same standards as public schools. The teachers that they hire do not have to meet the same standards as public school teachers. And unlike public schools, voucher schools don’t have to take all-comers so there’s a tremendous discrepancy. We have a huge vacuuming sound from our public taxpayer dollars that should be going to our public schools, they’re going to these private schools and Tim Michels wants to take that statewide. I don’t think Wisconsin voters think that defunding schools that are struggling, whether it’s rural schools with high transportation costs, whether it’s schools that have high special needs populations, that taking money away is going to help educate our kids.

Zac Schultz:

There’s one last issue that we have to get to before we let you two go and that is abortion. We’ve seen it in all of the ads. It’s been obviously top of mind since the Dobbs decision. We’re going to hear from Tim Michels first.

Tim Michels:

I am prolife and I make no apologies for that. But I’ll tell you who the real radical is. The real radical is Governor Evers, where he is — for allowing abortion as late as at the time of birth. He even vetoed the Born Alive Bill, which would allow a doctor to murder a baby after birth. That is extreme. That is radical.

Tony Evers:

Women should have the ability and the right to make decisions about their healthcare, including reproductive healthcare and that includes abortion. My opponent is radical on this issue, and frankly, he’s radical because it’s not consistent with Wisconsin values.

Zac Schultz:

We’ve heard the term radical over and over and Paul, now Tim Michels is trying to flip the script and use that to describe Tony Evers. Will that work?

Paul Farrow:

You know, the abortion issue is one of those issues that everybody has a concern with. I think right now what you’re seeing is the Democratic Party using it as the shield to disavow everything else that’s happening because they really haven’t been successful on any other challenges. I think Governor Evers — Governor Evers made a statement and has said that he is wanting to codify Roe versus Wade. That’s it. Tim Michels has said, and I think he’s the only one that said look, if I get a bill that comes to my desk, even though I’m prolife and it has exceptions which the vast majority agree with, I’ll look at it and sign it.

Zac Schultz:

All right. Kelda, we’ve got less than a minute. Is this the base turnout of all base turnouts?

Kelda Roys:

No, this is a huge issue for all Wisconsin voters. Half of the people in the state lost our rights overnight because of an unelected Republican Supreme Court. It’s unacceptable. Tim Michels is so far out of step. He described that the 1849 pre-Civil War criminalization of abortion was an exact mirror of his position. He has funneled thousands of dollars to an organization that opposes contraception and wants to get rid of the exception for the life of the woman. That’s how extreme Tim Michels is. He cannot be trusted on abortion with our rights or with our school kids.

Zac Schultz:

We’ve got just a few seconds left. Very quickly, we’ll start with you, did anyone win or lose the debate tonight?

Kelda Roys:

I think Tony Evers clearly won because he came with detailed plans, with a record of accomplishments, and you know, he has been the leader that the state deserves.

Zac Schultz:

10 seconds.

Paul Farrow:

Tim Michels won. He came with the realization that we’re going to get a new leadership in Madison.

Zac Schultz:

All right. Paul Farrow, Kelda Roys, thank you both. We appreciate it.

Paul Farrow, Kelda Roys:

Thank you.

Zac Schultz:

We turn now to an election that can get overshadowed by the races for governor and U.S. Senate, Wisconsin’s attorney general is often called the state’s top cop. And public safety is the number one issue for both the incumbent, Democrat Josh Kaul and the challenger Republican Eric Toney but which party controls the office of attorney general has a much bigger impact on other hot button issues like abortion and elections.

Josh Kaul:

I think public safety is the most important issue for the attorney general. It’s been my top priority since I took office and it continues to be.

Eric Toney:

Josh Kaul has decided that’s not going to be his top priority. Politics has been his top priority and that’s why we need a prosecutor and not a politician as our top cop.

Zac Schultz:

The attorney general leads Wisconsin’s Department of Justice. And while that may sound imposing, DOJ is typically not on the front line of the fight against crime. They often play a support role, stepping into assist local police and county district attorneys when needed.

Eric Toney:

What we want to do is focus on Milwaukee County.

Zac Schultz:

Eric Toney wants a more direct role. If elected, he plans to ask the legislature for the authority to step in and prosecute any case in Milwaukee County.

Eric Toney:

It’s evident that we need more resources and to have the attorney general’s office assist with that on that type of violent crime.

Zac Schultz:

Josh Kaul says if the legislature is giving more authority to the DOJ, it should apply statewide but he also can’t think of cases where the Milwaukee County district attorney is choosing not to prosecute violent criminals.

Josh Kaul:

I can’t think of examples where, you know, DAs think that there is a prosecution that should be brought and they’re choosing not to.

Zac Schultz:

For the record, Toney can’t list any examples of that either, but he knows Milwaukee has a budget shortfall.

Eric Toney:

The mayor’s budget proposal this year is for less police officers than the year before and so our Department of Justice can be a resource to augment what we’re seeing in Milwaukee with DCI agents and prosecutors to add more to our Department of Justice.

Zac Schultz:

Kaul says the way to fight crime is for the legislature to fully fund shared revenue to local governments, so the city of Milwaukee can afford more officers.

Josh Kaul:

What we really need, though, is not just a shift in authority. We need to get resources to our communities.

Zac Schultz:

Toney says Republicans in the legislature are more likely to fund his Department of Justice than increase shared revenue to Milwaukee.

Eric Toney:

What we need is someone the legislature trusts to partner with to deploy those resources for public safety.

Zac Schultz:

Kaul says it’s important to have an attorney general willing to stand up to Republicans in the legislature, especially on election issues.

Josh Kaul:

This is a clear contrast in the attorney general’s race. If you want a candidate who you can count on to protect democracy, I think my track record speaks for itself. My opponent’s track record speaks for itself in a very different way.

Zac Schultz:

Kaul represented the state in numerous lawsuits filed before and after the 2020 election, and says a Republican couldn’t be trusted to do the same.

Josh Kaul:

That’s a real concern that I have, is that if there is Republican control, that they would overrule the will of the people and I’m worried that if Eric Toney were AG, that he would potentially suggest, you know, falsely that laws were broken or that there was fraud. And again, he has suggested that laws were broken in 2020, despite the fact that this has been litigated in case after case after case.

Eric Toney:

That’s incredibly disingenuous and dishonest of our attorney general to make a statement like that.

Zac Schultz:

Eric Toney is one of the few Republican candidates this election cycle to clearly state Donald Trump lost Wisconsin in 2020 and that there was no widespread voter fraud.

Eric Toney:

I’ve been the most vocal statewide Republican candidate saying we cannot decertify the election. That it’s not lawful. That there was not level of fraud that would have overturned the results of the 2020 election.

Zac Schultz:

That doesn’t mean Toney and Kaul agree on election issues. Toney says the members of the Wisconsin Elections Commission could have been prosecuted for the guidance they issued to local clerks.

Eric Toney:

WEC exceeded their lawful authority in directing these clerks to effectively break Wisconsin law.

Zac Schultz:

Kaul says no matter Toney’s prior statements, he wouldn’t trust him in 2024.

Josh Kaul:

What we’ve seen, though, is on issue after issue, Republicans in Wisconsin have been unwilling to stand up to Donald Trump.

Zac Schultz:

Toney says in 2024, he will follow the law.

Eric Toney:

I will enforce the rule of law not just when it’s popular and not just when I agree, that I will not inject my personal beliefs on others. I will follow the law.

Zac Schultz:

He says that applies to another area of contention in this election: abortion. Specifically enforcing Wisconsin’s 1849 law that bans all abortion except to save the life of the mother.

Eric Toney:

I’ve been very clear as a DA and as attorney general, I’m going to enforce the law. Right now that means we have an abortion ban on the books here in Wisconsin and I will enforce that as a DA and I will enforce and defend that as our attorney general.

Zac Schultz:

Josh Kaul has filed a lawsuit seeking to overturn that law and has said he will not enforce it as attorney general.

Josh Kaul:

The Wisconsin Department of Justice has about a hundred investigators, as well as a number of prosecutors. Putting those resources towards going after doctors or nurses or spouses or parents for violating that 19th Century abortion ban first is wrong but on top of that would be shifting resources from protecting public safety.

Zac Schultz:

Not only would Toney enforce the 1849 abortion ban, he would ask the legislature to allow adjoining counties to bring cases if the local DA won’t prosecute.

Eric Toney:

We need to give our attorney general the authority to prosecute. They already would have the technical authority to investigate it and I think another approach would be allowing for adjoining counties to be able to investigate and enforce that abortion ban in Wisconsin.

Josh Kaul:

What we do in Wisconsin in these elections makes such a big difference. The margins are small, but the consequences are huge.

Zac Schultz:

Josh Kaul thinks this is the type of issue that swings elections and may make the difference in a tight race.

Josh Kaul:

I do think that this is going to impact the election. I think there are people who may have voted Republican when they — when they knew there was a constitutional protection for access to safe and legal abortion who are now seeing how extreme Republicans, including my opponent, are on this issue.

Zac Schultz:

Toney says in the end, it will come down to public safety.

Eric Toney:

Josh Kaul has been lockstep with Tony Evers where we need an attorney general that is going to stand with our law enforcement, public safety and the rule of law.

Zac Schultz:

For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSwisconsin.org, then click on the news tab. And to learn about all the candidates in November, visit WisconsinVote.org. That is our program for tonight. I’m Zac Schultz. Have a great weekend.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.