Announcer:
The following program is part of our “Here & Now” 2022 election coverage.
Frederica Freyberg:
After a long and expensive campaign season, Election Day is finally almost here and candidates are pulling out all the stops making their final bids to voters.
I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” Zac Schultz reports on the governor’s race and the future of public education. The latest Marquette Law School survey before voters head to the polls and what role misinformation could play before and after ballots are cast. It’s “Here & Now” for November 4.
Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
Frederica Freyberg:
In just a few days, voters will go to the polls and decide what the future of Wisconsin government will look like. Democratic Governor Tony Evers says he has spent the last four years playing goalie, vetoing hundreds of bills passed by a Republican-controlled legislature. If he wins re-election, he can expect more of the same in his second term as the legislature is all but assured to remain in Republican hands. If Republican challenger Tim Michels wins, you can expect a very different scenario and he has promised to “transform Wisconsin for generations to come.” The future of public education is at stake in this election as the candidates have very different visions for how our schools should operate. Zac Schultz reports.
Tim Michels:
We are going to stop the CRT and get back to the ABCs.
Zac Schultz:
Republican Tim Michels’ education plan can be reduced down to one line and he says it in every speech.
Tim Michels:
We are going to stop the CRT and get back to the ABCs. We are going to stop the CRT and get back to the ABCs.
Woman:
Time is up please. Governor?
Tony Evers:
CRTs are not taught in our schools and the ABCs are. In fact, most parents teach the ABCs at home.
Zac Schultz:
CRT is short for Critical Race Theory, a college-level political theory that uses race as a lens to examine history. But in political discourse, CRT has become part of the ongoing culture wars that drive Republican turnout at the polls.
Tim Michels:
Now it’s all about the acronyms: LGBTQ and CRT and BLM.
Tony Evers:
When you start picking people out, whether it’s black kids, brown kids, LGBTQ kids, wokeness. All of a sudden you divided everybody. And now people can get excited and upset and angry. That does nothing for a conversation. And it sounds like somebody that has never walked through a public school in their life.
Zac Schultz:
Democrat Tony Evers is very comfortable in public schools even if the kids confuse him for someone else.
School kid:
You look like somebody I know.
Tony Evers:
Governor of the state of Wisconsin, you may have seen me on TV.
School kid:
You look like Joe Biden.
Tony Evers:
Joe Biden? Well, that’s a compliment.
Zac Schultz:
Prior to becoming governor, Evers spent his entire career in education, as a teacher, administrator, and as the state superintendent. He wants to reinvest more money into public schools, proposing $2 billion in additional spending in the next budget.
Tony Evers:
We need more resources for them. No question about that.
Zac Schultz:
Tim Michels did not agree to an interview for this story but has made his positions clear in numerous speeches and debates.
Tim Michels:
Our education system is broken in Wisconsin. The problem there is we’re already throwing so much money at education. That’s been the fix, if you will, for the last 10 or 20 or 30 years. More money at education, more money at education and it’s not working. The definition of insanity.
Man:
We’ll leave it at that.
Zac Schultz:
His solution is what he calls universal school choice.
Tim Michels:
We are going to have education reform. What are we going to do? Universal school choice.
Zac Schultz:
His website is light on specifics, but the policy would likely lift the enrollment and income caps on the current voucher programs, allowing wealthy families to use tax dollars to pay private school tuition. Evers says the problem is when voucher dollars leave the public schools, they still have to pay the light bill and they are required to raise property taxes to make up the difference.
Tony Evers:
This will be real likely a half billion dollar property tax increase.
Zac Schultz:
Michels says his plan is needed by pointing to a handful of Milwaukee schools in Black neighborhoods that saw reading scores crash during COVID.
Tim Michels:
Baby Kewonn and thousands of young babies like Kewonn, and baby girls, have zero chance at being successful in life unless, unless we change education. That’s why it’s the foundation of what we’re going to do. We’re going to get universal school choice, and we’re going to help get Milwaukee headed in the right direction.
Zac Schultz:
The problem with his argument is Milwaukee has had a voucher program for three decades. Universal school choice won’t change the situation there at all. Attacking schools may be good politics, but Evers says it’s dangerous policy.
Tony Evers:
What does that do to our institutions in the meantime? It destroys them. So it’s politics at its worst.
Zac Schultz:
And the politics may turn into policy. Evers vetoed a Republican bill last year that would have allowed parents to sue their local school districts over things like the use of names and pronouns for transgender kids. Michels would sign it.
Tony Evers:
If my opponent is governor, all 128 bills that I did veto over the last three and a half years will become the law of the land impacting voting rights, impacting reproductive health, impacting our public schools, you name it. Wisconsin will be a different place.
Tim Michels:
We know they’re indoctrinating our children.
Zac Schultz:
In his speeches to more conservative audiences, Michels’ rhetoric becomes more inflamed.
Tim Michels:
That is a cultural shift that the left wants. It’s part of their destroying America.
Zac Schultz:
At one speech, Michels linked public schools with a number of movements connected to black America.
Tim Michels:
We believe this country is on a slippery slope towards socialism. It’s being cloaked, cloaked behind CRT and BLM and defund the police.
Tony Evers:
It’s all dog whistle politics.
Zac Schultz:
To Evers, the racist undertones should not be ignored.
Tony Evers:
There’s a lot of harm that’s done by dividing people, dividing people and dividing people. That’s how Trump does it. That’s how my opponent does it.
Zac Schultz:
At that same event, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis praised Michels.
Ron DeSantis:
I really believe everything we’ve done in Florida, you will be able to do in Wisconsin and then some.
[cheering]
Zac Schultz:
Earlier this year DeSantis signed a bill critics called the “Don’t say gay” bill, which prevents elementary teachers from talking about sexual orientation and gender identity with students.
Tony Evers:
We don’t need Ron DeSantis to come to Wisconsin and tell us how to do things.
Zac Schultz:
Evers says the politics of DeSantis and Michels aren’t good for Wisconsin schools.
Tony Evers:
I read that he said, if my opponent’s elected, we can be like Florida. Well, whoop-de-do? Exactly who thinks that’s a good idea?
Zac Schultz:
So how does Michels want students educated on the issues of race and gender?
Tim Michels:
We’re going to let parents decide, not a couple of woke educrats that are going to say this is what it is now, we’re going to start teaching this, that this is bad and this is good.
Tony Evers:
Obviously, he believes that, that there’s this liberal cabal in every school district in the state that is woke, whatever that means.
Jill Underly:
We need to make sure kids see themselves represented in the history that we teach.
Zac Schultz:
State Superintendent Jill Underly wrote an editorial this year saying “Critical Race Theory is not a subject being taught in K-12 schools,” but she says, “if what you’re actually asking is, are we teaching students about race and racism? Then the answer is and should be yes.” And that’s what has Michels upset.
Tim Michels:
I disagree with the statement Frederica that everything is being taught properly right now. Parents have come to me and shown me the stuff that’s being taught to their kids in school and they’re outraged and they don’t like it.
Zac Schultz:
Evers says Michels is trying to use that confusion and outrage to get elected.
Tony Evers:
It bothers me because people can’t define it and then people get angry with each other. It’s just a way of dividing people and there is political sense in dividing people. If you divide people, then you’re going to be — and you divide them in such a way that 51% of them believe you. You get elected.
Zac Schultz:
Reporting from Madison, I’m Zac Schultz for “Here & Now.”
Frederica Freyberg:
We have a correction from last week. We mis-identified Gracie Skogman as being from Pro-Life Wisconsin. She represents Wisconsin Right to Life.
Next, the latest and last statewide poll ahead of next Tuesday’s election. Marquette University Law School poll director Charles Franklin joins us. Thanks for being here.
Charles Franklin:
Thanks for having me.
Frederica Freyberg:
We’ve got a toss-up on our hands in the governor’s race. A dead heat with Tony Evers and Tim Michels each at 48% among likely voters. This has moved in Michel’s direction since your last poll. What role do these wall to wall campaign ads have on the persuasion of voters?
Charles Franklin:
I think we’ve seen a small but consistent tightening in the governor’s race. It hadn’t bounced around very much but it’s tightened and tightened and tightened. I think the campaign has this to do with the advertising is voluminous almost — well, it is more than we’ve seen in previous races here. So people are constantly exposed to campaign messages whether that produces a tighter race or not I don’t know but certainly it means that voters have gained information about the candidates, formed opinions about them especially Tim Michels the challenger. Tony Evers as the incumbent they knew pretty well and haven’t changed as much in their views of him
Frederica Freyberg:
Obviously, turnout will be everything.
Charles Franklin:
Turnout will be everything A) because it’s always everything, but also here in Wisconsin where we’re looking at such a close race, tied at 48% in our poll — doesn’t get any closer than that. Even little changes matter and so you’re seeing both parties pulling out all the stops this week and over the weekend to try to get every last single voter they can get. Because we’re past the point where there are very many people to persuade. It’s about do you get your voters to the polls?
Frederica Freyberg:
In the U.S. Senate race, incumbent Ron Johnson is up on Mandela Barnes 50% to 48% among likely voters. Since your last poll, Barnes has moved up but going into this Ron Johnson was regarded as one of the most vulnerable for re-election by the national pundits. What’s responsible among Wisconsin voters for him maintaining his staying power?
Charles Franklin:
As we saw in 2016 when Johnson won re-election the last time, he started the year viewed unfavorably by quite a bit, about 9 or 10 points more unfavorable than favorable views. But over the course of the year in each poll he’s gotten just a little bit more favorable and his net now is just barely net negative. So he’s still a little net negative but he’s certainly improved over the course of the campaign. That was the same recipe in 2016 where he started out behind but caught up. What we did see was this tightening from three weeks ago when we had Johnson up by 6 points to today up by two points but do realize that represents a two-point change in Barnes’ favor and against Johnson. We’re really looking at just two-point change on each of the candidates. That’s all it took to go from a six-point to two-point lead.
Frederica Freyberg:
In the “cares about people like me” category, both Democratic candidates running for governor and Senate have it over the Republicans. 52% of respondents said Tony Evers cares with 40% saying he doesn’t. That’s compared to Tim Michels where 43% said he cares about people like them and 46% said he doesn’t care. Do people vote based on this perception?
Charles Franklin:
We always think so but I put this question in in part to see this because here we see the Democrat has the advantage and yet the race is tied. Now maybe it’s because of having this advantage on this personal characteristic is why Evers is doing as well as he does and if he didn’t have that advantage, he might be trailing. On the other hand, it may be that our partisan ties are now so powerful in the way they structure our vote that we’ll vote for a candidate even if we don’t think they’re terrific or we’ll vote against someone even though we think they really do care more about me.
Frederica Freyberg:
In the U.S. Senate race, 49% said Mandela Barnes cares about people like them with 42% saying he doesn’t care. And for Ron Johnson it was 43% said he cares and 49% said he doesn’t. Is this mostly about rich versus working class or is there something more?
Charles Franklin:
I wonder about that. It’s interesting that despite the negative campaign ads that we’ve seen through the year, Barnes maintains this advantage even though a lot of those attacks are directed at him. We did ask for the class question, do each of these candidates care — who better understands the problems of ordinary people in Wisconsin? We put that there because we have two millionaires running against two non-millionaires. You might think social class would matter but we see the Democrats have a little bit of an advantage on that but not really a lot. It doesn’t seem like being wealthy as a candidate makes people think you don’t understand the ordinary problems.
Frederica Freyberg:
On the issues, for your polling of all registered voters, their number one issue is inflation, followed by public schools, crime, gun violence, accurate vote and abortion. Other issues fall off. This ranking of issues by importance intersects somewhat but does not fully comport with what the partisan campaigns are highlighting and their supporters are echoing. For example, Democrats, for Democrats, inflation comes in at number five and abortion comes in at number one. For Republicans, accurate vote count is number one, inflation is two and crime is three. For all registered voters and independent voters, public schools rank higher than for either Dems or GOP respondents and independents track more closely on issues to registered voters than either major party respondents. What does this say about how the parties decide the issues for the voters instead of the other way around?
Charles Franklin:
I think when we see the parties talk about those issues that are at the top of their supporters’ list but not at the top of independents or the other party, you’re really seeing an appeal to the base. Republicans have pushed crime an issue which is near the top for their voters. Democrats have pushed abortion. That’s the real difference. Who’s speaking to the independents? They’re a little mixed across the issues.
Frederica Freyberg:
We leave it there. Charles Franklin and thank you for your work.
Charles Franklin:
Thank you, now everybody go vote.
Frederica Freyberg:
Wisconsin leads the nation in a ranking of youth voters that are likely to influence the midterm elections. That’s according to a Tufts research group saying Wisconsin youth have had above average voter engagement in the state’s recent competitive elections. We traveled out across the state in late September to find out what kinds of issues they’re thinking about and how they view their newly acquired right to vote.
Genesis Liebhaber:
Everyone obviously has different views but the option, the ability to vote is a way to get your view out, your decision no matter what it is.
Roman Madvig:
The right to vote is very important to me because I feel like if only one certain kind of people are allowed to vote, then you can’t get everyone’s opinion and then that won’t be equal.
Kolton Teichmiller:
If I couldn’t vote then I couldn’t really try to make an impact on what’s going on around me and if I can’t make an impact on what’s going on around me I’m just living here without any sort of say on anything that’s going on.
Julia Cleveland:
I would say it’s pretty important because I think even just one person voting can make a huge difference.
Bella Ruston:
The right to vote is extremely important because without the right to vote communities that are oppressed don’t have the opportunity to speak and they don’t have the opportunity to come forward with their stories through the people they elect into office.
Ashley Butkus:
I think as an American, you’re not using your full freedom, your full rights if you don’t vote. You have a say in what’s going on in the big picture, what’s going on in government and I think you should use that say and use your voice because it truly does matter.
Frederica Freyberg:
Those student interviews were conducted at schools across the state including at two with PBSNewsHour student reporting labs.
Prosecutors today charged the recently fired deputy director of the Milwaukee Elections Commission with felony and misdemeanor election fraud for obtaining three fake military absentee ballots. Here’s what Wisconsin Elections Commission administrator Meagan Wolfe said in part.
Meagan Wolfe:
I’m deeply disappointed in this individual’s actions. This election official violated election law, undermined the trust of the public and of her fellow election workers. The actions of this single individual were swiftly detected and will have no impact on the November 8th election.
Frederica Freyberg:
In the final run-up to the November 8 election, President Joe Biden took in the airwaves this week to decry political violence saying the “big lie” that the 2020 election was stolen fueled the capitol insurrection and the recent attack on Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s husband.
Joe Biden:
It’s a lie that fueled the dangerous rise in political violence and voter intimidation over the past two years.
Frederica Freyberg:
Is there a direct line from disinformation to voter intimidation and political violence? We discuss misinformation with expert on elections, media and political communication, UW-Madison journalism professor Mike Wagner who’s also engaged in research on this topic. Thanks for being here.
Mike Wagner:
My pleasure.
Frederica Freyberg:
Is it even a question that disinformation fuels violence and voter intimidation?
Mike Wagner:
It’s a question but right now the answer we have is that, yes, it does certainly seem to. There are people who see mis- and disinformation on their social media feeds and in more extreme corners of the internet but also in terms of people who meet up together and yes, there are direct lines we can draw between the misinformation that flows online and people’s behavior that sometimes can turn violent.
Frederica Freyberg:
This is kind of an old question but why does what the president calls the “big lie” persist even in the face of so much fact checking and evidence to the contrary?
Mike Wagner:
Part of it is that so many people on the Republican side of the aisle who are elected officials continue to fuel it. Much of the opinions that Americans develop is driven in part by what our elected officials say. They help shape our attitudes. Most of us don’t wake up and say, “How do I hold my government accountable today?” We look to the leaders, especially in the party we prefer to help us make sense of the world. And if leaders in one party are saying the election was stolen, it becomes hard to trust the fact checks and you couple that with the talk radio and far right ecology on social media that says you also can’t trust the news media, you have this toxic mix of distrust which leads to some of these problems.
Frederica Freyberg:
How much misinformation or disinformation is flying around out there right now?
Mike Wagner:
There is a lot. The truth tends to be more mundane. Mis- and disinformation tends to be much more emotional which not only means we recognize it, it also means it’s more likely to get shared so it spreads faster than the truth which is one of the problems we have when we’re trying to catch up with how mis- and disinformation spreads.
Frederica Freyberg:
So you’re looking at this all the time. What’s one of the most egregious examples of it you’ve seen?
Mike Wagner:
I think some of the claims that the election was stolen is a good example. I think other claims that there are elected officials who are running secret rings that abuse children is another example, the major QAnon theory is an egregious example. Other ones related to vaccinations. Not only because they reduce people’s likelihood to take the COVID vaccine but childhood vaccinations are down 10 to 15% so the spillover effects are huge not just for the specific lies being shared but how they affect other issues that come in contact with.
Frederica Freyberg:
Where is this most heavily trafficked?
Mike Wagner:
Social media, Twitter is a place, Facebook is a place. Other more extreme, Parler. Those kinds of places are where this really purveys quite a bit. There are networks of people who are willing to share this. It’s profitable to do it.
Frederica Freyberg:
Why do people embrace it?
Mike Wagner:
Some people who embrace it do it because it feels good. It feels good to see the other side having to hear these negative things about them. Others do it because it’s profitable or it might help their particular side gain power. Others prefer chaos and there’s a small subset of people who just enjoy watching the world burn and they are more than happy to share things that aren’t true to stir things up.
Frederica Freyberg:
Former president Obama asked what happens when truth doesn’t matter anymore? What does happen?
Mike Wagner:
We lose a shared opportunity to solve problems. If we can’t agree on truth, then how can we agree on what the nature of any problem is? And if we can’t agree on that, how can we agree on potential ways to solve those problems? I think our ability to governor ourselves is deeply affected by whether there are collective understandings of what’s verifiably true.
Frederica Freyberg:
Is that where we are now?
Mike Wagner:
I think that’s a little strong but it is — but barely. I think a lot of folks who are studying these issues are worried that we’re getting to a point where people may just completely shut off to the idea of understanding that information that’s bad for their side and is true should be rejected. People need to accept it when their side loses an election. Just as — I’m from Minnesota. I’m a Vikings fan. We’ve never won the Super Bowl. It would be ridiculous of me to claim that Vikings had. I would be laughed out of any room if I said that, especially in Wisconsin. But people are making those same kinds bizarre claims on really important issues beyond football like who won an election or does this vaccine cause a problem.
Frederica Freyberg:
So persistent disinformation like this stolen election may whip some people into committing political violence but what effect does the long simmer of this have on the rest of the folks who wouldn’t crash the capital or hurt anybody?
Mike Wagner:
I think one thing it does is reduces many people’s belief that we can solve problems, that we can work together to solve problems. It lowers our ability to want to compromise with the other side. If the other side is dangerous and evil and not to be trusted, why would we ever want to compromise with them? I think there are long-term problems just in terms of generalized problem solving that this causes. And another is just the lack of trust in people who can tell us verifiably true information and there are times when we need to know what’s true and it could be a matter of life and death and if we don’t trust the folks, like you, if we don’t trust journalists who face consequences when they say things that aren’t true, if we don’t trust them, we’re in some real trouble.
Frederica Freyberg:
What’s going to break this cycle?
Mike Wagner:
That’s a great question. I wish I knew the answer. I think one thing that can help is listening. I think when we’re trying to persuade people who we know believe things that aren’t true, we should aim for the heart and not the head. If facts were enough, we wouldn’t be in this mess. There are other things we have to do to build trust with each other that go beyond I’m right and you’re wrong and you have to accept it.
Frederica Freyberg:
How might all this disinformation disrupt this election and its aftermath?
Mike Wagner:
Well, depending upon who wins, I think we might see one side or not be willing to concede they lost. That might lead to more behaviors at state levels like saw on January 6 at the U.S. Capitol. There are a lot of governor races and Senate races that might raise the ire of people. These have huge consequences from a policy perspective. So there are things to be watching as we see what happens with the counting of the votes after Election Day.
Frederica Freyberg:
Mike Wagner, thanks very much.
Mike Wagner:
My pleasure.
Frederica Freyberg:
You can find information about candidates and voting as well as real-time election results by visiting WisconsinVote.org. And for more on all of this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSwisconsin.org and then click on the news tab. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.
Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
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