Here & Now

Transcript for Here & Now for November 13, 2020

Announcer:

The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

Surging COVID-19 numbers snap attention from politics even as the official election count is underway this week in Wisconsin. Positive coronavirus case numbers soar to another record daily number nearing 7800. Officials say hospitals are near the tipping point for saving critically ill patients. And Governor Tony Evers takes to the prime time airwaves with another statewide public health order.

Tony Evers:

I’ve signed executive order 94 advising Wisconsinites to stay home and save lives. We must get back to the basics of fighting this virus just like we did last spring.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” we’ll talk with a UW infectious disease expert about the accelerating COVID crisis in Wisconsin. We’ll hear more from Governor Evers on his call to action. Assembly Speaker Robin Vos is here to discuss the Republican agenda to combat COVID. He’ll also talk about his call to investigate the Wisconsin election count. And the head of the State Elections Commission, Meagan Wolfe, has official vote tallies as they’re checked and rechecked. She’ll also speak to the newly-filed Republican lawsuit that questions the Wisconsin vote. It’s “Here & Now” for November 13.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Rising COVID-19 cases in Wisconsin continue an alarming surge. Daily positive cases this week nearing 7800 with hospitalizations and deaths steaming in behind. Many hospital systems are near capacity, with some in northwest Wisconsin 100% full up. State public health officials declare we are nearing the tipping point at which medical providers cannot save everyone who gets severely ill. We check in now with Dr. Nasia Safdar, the medical director of infection control at UW Hospital and Clinics. Thanks very much for being here.

Nasia Safdar:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

So as we said, the state epidemiologist says Wisconsin hospitals are near the tipping point where they may not be able to save seriously ill patients. How true is that at UW?

Nasia Safdar:

I think it’s true everywhere. We’re seeing an increasing number of patients. We haven’t experienced this kind of inpatient hospitalization rate since the beginning of the pandemic. And even though all health systems would like to have the ability to care for those with COVID and those who don’t have COVID but have other medical conditions, it becomes increasingly challenging given the surge.

Frederica Freyberg:

How difficult is that for people like yourself who are providers?

Nasia Safdar:

Well, I think these decisions are never easy to make. We’re all humans. So we worry about are our decisions going to have some unintended consequences. You never want to be able to say to a patient I have to postpone a procedure they need because of what we’re experiencing. But ultimately I think that’s what reality looks like at the moment.

Frederica Freyberg:

Today U.S. Senators including our own Tammy Baldwin are calling on the federal government to send in medical professionals to help with staffing shortages. How badly do hospitals need this kind of infusion of help?

Nasia Safdar:

I think capacity in terms of staffing is probably the biggest challenge hospitals are facing right now. Because as we’re seeing rates of infection rise in the community, the health care workforce is also part of that community so we’re seeing infections in our employees as well. And while it’s relatively easy to have a new bed come from somewhere, you really can’t bring a fully trained health care worker without a lot of challenges.

Frederica Freyberg:

Have you seen any of that kind of infusion of medical professionals as yet?

Nasia Safdar:

At this point we have not needed to take advantage of that.

Frederica Freyberg:

As all of Wisconsin is fearful with these exploding numbers of COVID, what is it like day in and day out for those health care workers on the front lines?

Nasia Safdar:

Well, there’s a great deal I think of exhaustion, of fear, of burn-out. I think the health care workers as a group are very resilient, but this has been going on now for several months and just like everyone else in the community, sustaining this kind of challenge is very difficult. So we’re starting to feel it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Are new treatments and methods of care learned over these months increasingly helping patients seriously ill with COVID?

Nasia Safdar:

I think they have. I think those advances in some of the therapeutics that have become available. I think our supportive care is now much better. I think the PPE, comfort with wearing it, with the donning and offing, all of those things I think have greatly improved since the beginning of the pandemic and we’re seeing that in patient outcomes.

Frederica Freyberg:

How hopeful should we be now that a vaccine is on the way?

Nasia Safdar:

I have to say I’m very excited about this possibility. I think we want to review the data as scientists would want to do that. But I think in terms of hope and the fact that we may be turning an important corner in this pandemic, it’s pretty exciting news.

Frederica Freyberg:

One of the members of the president-elect’s task force says we should consider a nationwide lockdown to get this under control. What would you want to see?

Nasia Safdar:

I think that we know that the virus travels with people. And so when we remove — when people move less, interact with fewer people, you will see a decline in infections. I think it’s a matter of can we do it at this point, can we sustain it, because it requires pretty drastic behavior change and everyone is tired and fatigued of this pandemic. In terms of being an effective intervention, I think it is likely to be effective.

Frederica Freyberg:

What are you steeling for as we approach the holiday season and family gatherings?

Nasia Safdar:

I think we will — if things go as they currently are, I think we will expect to see a bump in infections as a result of this holiday weekend coming up over Thanksgiving. I hope that people will limit their interactions and I think that’s the message that everyone is trying to send out that this, of all years, is one Thanksgiving where you don’t want to interact in person with people outside of your immediate household. It’s a hard message to hear and to follow. But there will be Thanksgiving next year but some of the lives we have lost during this pandemic won’t be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

Meanwhile we are now colliding with the flu season. Have you seen an uptick in flu cases?

Nasia Safdar:

We have not at this point. There’s always sporadic influenza infections that occur throughout the year. But normally by this time of the year, we would have inspected quite a few infections and fortunately, we haven’t seen that yet.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your message, finally, to people as we enter into what one epidemiologist called ‘COVID hell’?

Nasia Safdar:

I think if we can reach a point where we can do enough behavior change to temporize this so that even if we can’t flatten the curve altogether, we can bend it a little bit just until there’s an effective vaccine that can be widely deployed. There is light at the end of this tunnel. We just have to get through it in a way that’s manageable.

Frederica Freyberg:

Dr. Nasia Safdar, thanks very much and thanks for your work.

Nasia Safdar:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Governor Tony Evers took to the prime time airwaves this week to make an urgent plea and an executive order to advise people to stay home.

Tony Evers:

Wisconsin has become a national hot spot. We once led our region in containing this virus, but now surges in our state rival what we saw in New York City this last spring. Our case numbers continue to climb. Since last Friday we’ve added more than 25,000 new cases. It took us seven and a half months to get to 100,000 cases, but it only took 36 days to add another 100,000. The way things are going, it will take us only 20 days to reach another 100,000. We’ve now surpassed in deaths the number of lives we projected we would have saved months ago if we would have been able to keep safer-at-home and reopen safely. 2,395 Wisconsinites, mothers, fathers, grandparents, friends and co-workers have lost their lives and I offer my deepest sympathy and condolences to those who are mourning the loss of their loved ones. Unfortunately, they will not be the last.

Frederica Freyberg:

Since the governor’s address earlier in the week those numbers have only grown. Following Evers’ address, Assembly Speaker Robin Vos picked up the phone and called the governor, this after six months of stalemate between Republicans and Evers over how to deal with COVID-19 in Wisconsin. Speaker Vos this week also charged the Assembly Committee on Campaigns and Elections to investigate alleged election irregularities in Wisconsin. A joint committee of both houses takes up the inquiry next week by calling election clerks to testify under subpoena. Speaker Vos joins us now and thanks very much for doing so.

Robin Vos:

Hi Fred.

Frederica Freyberg:

So first to COVID. What prompted you to call the governor directly following his statewide address where he told everyone to stay home?

Robin Vos:

Well, the first thing is I wanted to make sure that now that the election is behind us, we know that Democrats spent literally tens of millions of dollars over the course of the past six months trying to create a narrative that somehow Republicans didn’t take COVID seriously and didn’t want to actually work together to get it done. The opposite is actually true. We passed a very good bipartisan bill that encouraged Governor Evers and really empowered him to be able to deal with the virus in one of the first bills that passed in the country. I now think as the virus has gotten worse and of course we know that more cases are rising every day, we do want to offer and say let’s work together and find areas of common ground that doesn’t require a shutdown, doesn’t require us to close our economy, but certainly gives additional tools that might be necessary to help ensure that the virus spread slows and hopefully once a vaccine comes, we can get our economy fully operational.

Frederica Freyberg:

That package of bills which you mentioned happened when, back in April? And so the Republican-held legislature has come under criticism over these months as COVID-19 has surged for really not taking any action since then. What about that?

Robin Vos:

It’s really a political argument that’s been made by the liberals and their allies all across the state once again with out-of-state billionaire funded money just to try to win the legislature back. There isn’t a law that we can pass that will outlaw the pandemic, right? That just isn’t going to happen. We provided resources, made it easier to get unemployment. We certainly got rid of a lot of barriers and regulations that made it harder to deal with the virus. But look, I think there are areas where we should certainly do better. Governor Evers has unilateral control over the course of the summer, no legislative input whatsoever in how to spend the over $2 billion in federal funding. Some of those areas I think he spent it wisely. Other areas I think it leaves something to be desired. From my perspective, I want to make sure we have more money going to help the small businesses that really suffer because of the decisions that have been made. I think we could have done a much better job with contact tracing. We only have a little bit over 1,000 employees hired when they should certainly have had way more than that. We know even on issues as simple as rapid testing the federal government has provided over 1.7 million rapid tests and those have not been utilized anywhere near in the way that they should. So look, if there are areas we can work together, there’s been more than enough politics in 2020 god willing we don’t have to deal with that going forward. That’s why we wanted to be sincere in saying, look, I got reelected, I watched his address, I wanted to make sure we reached out and said let’s find areas we can work together on and let’s hope that we can actually get that done.

Frederica Freyberg:

Have you talked with him since you left that message for him on areas where you can work together?

Robin Vos:

Yeah. We’ve actually played phone tag. I know both of our chiefs of staff have been in regular communication to say let’s look at what ideas they have. We’re doing the exact same thing. My goal would be to have us get together as early as next week so we can have ideas fleshed out and hopefully get things moving as quickly as possible to see again where there are those parts of common ground.

Frederica Freyberg:

You’ve talked a little bit about relief for small businesses. Are there other things that you’ve seen come from the other side that you feel like you actually could come together on specifically?

Robin Vos:

We really haven’t seen any specific ideas from them as of today. I am certain that they have them. The only one they’ve really talked about is some kind of an additional lockdown. I don’t want to do that. But I certainly believe that we are totally in agreement on following the CDC guidelines. We’ve been saying that for months. The mainstream media just chose to focus on the Democrats’ narrative of saying we didn’t care when it’s not really true. We believe you should use a mask. We believe you definitely should socially distance when you’re able. Of course wash your hands and stay at home unless you’re required to go out. I think those are things we already have common ground on. We’ve been trying to explain that to our constituents but at the same time we see that as the cases rise, we need to see if there are additional things that the department or the public health agencies need. I’ve been in regular communication with my Department of Public Health and by and large the locals are doing a really good job. A lot of times it comes down to resources. That’s something that the state of Wisconsin cannot afford to do by itself, which is why we needed that CARES money that the President and the Congress allocated that is being utilized this year and we’ll hopefully be able to spend that as smartly and wisely as we can.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s talk about the election. Why for the first time in 50 years are you arming an Assembly committee with subpoena powers to investigate election irregularities?

Robin Vos:

Because we want to make sure that every single person who voted in the November 3rd election has confidence in its results. There is no doubt as we have gotten literally thousands of telephone calls, emails, Facebook messages that people doubt the election was run in the way it should be. Now as I’ve said before, I think it’s unlikely that we’re going to find enough irregularities to overturn the election. But that doesn’t mean that we couldn’t find areas that definitely need improvement or potentially things that would lead to a change in the outcome. Again, I think it’s unlikely, but I don’t know why we would not want to have the most thorough, most accurate count so every legal vote is counted and people have absolute confidence at the end of the day that whoever wins the presidency did it lawfully.

Frederica Freyberg:

It kind of sounds like you don’t trust the election officials in Wisconsin when they say that they are finding no irregularities.

Robin Vos:

Oh, no, I trust the clerks. I think that by and large they do a good job. But we do see there were instances all across the state where Republicans weren’t allowed to be in the counting room. We know that people said that they were indefinitely confined because it was a way around the voter ID law and I have a hard time believing that none of those people have left their house during the time that they said they were indefinitely confined all the way until the election on November 3. So I think there are a lot of irregularities that we are going to investigate. Again, whether or not they overturn the election, I think that’s unlikely, but I certainly believe it’s going to be a reason that we continue to look at our election laws to make sure that no one doubts the integrity or the sincerity of those who run the elections or the final outcome as it’s determined by those results.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you accept the results of the presidential election?

Robin Vos:

From my perspective in Wisconsin, it seems like the election was fairly well run. Again, I only know my perspective of what I saw in my own area where I think our clerks did a pretty good job. But I have had reports of other people who have first-hand knowledge where they saw things that looked fishy to them I think we should investigate. I wasn’t in the thousands of polling places all across the state. I did not witness all of those incidents that people are now reporting to us. But I certainly think we owe it to every person who votes in Wisconsin to do a thorough investigation and ensure that the results are accurate, fair and able to be justified to every single voter.

Frederica Freyberg:

We leave it there. Speaker Robin Vos, thanks very much for your time.

Robin Vos:

Thanks very much.

Frederica Freyberg:

The administrator of the Wisconsin Elections Commission is expected to testify at the joint legislative inquiry next week. This week, Meagan Wolfe has been publicly countering misinformation borne from social media and political websites that allege all kinds of vast election interference or fraud. And by week’s end a lawsuit had been filed similar to ones in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Georgia. The Wisconsin suit calls to throw out results from heavily Democratic Menominee, Dane and Milwaukee Counties. We turn to Meagan Wolfe for response. Thanks very much for being here.

Meagan Wolfe:

Well, good morning. Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So the lawsuit brought by Republican attorneys wants to throw out all those results from those three counties based on sundry allegations of fraud. By my count that’s nearly 800,000 votes they want to stop the certification of results. What is your reaction to this lawsuit?

Meagan Wolfe:

Well, we’ll of course work with our legal counsel and the Department of Justice through the litigation process and provide any data that is presented as part of it. But at this time, again, even as part of this filing, we’re not aware of there being any actual evidence produced to show that there was any large scale fraud or anything that, you know, amounts to major issues in counting or other jurisdictions in counting their ballots or in ensuring that only eligible voters were able to cast their ballot.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, the lawsuit targets, among other things, 200,000 plus indefinitely confined voters who don’t have to include voter ID on absentee ballots. The legislative committee launching its investigation is also questioning those votes. Why do those votes count?

Meagan Wolfe:

Indefinitely confined is actually a provision of the photo ID law in the Wisconsin state statutes. And the Wisconsin state statutes say that if a voter certifies that they are indefinitely confined, and this is a self-certification of the voter, that they can apply as indefinitely confined for reason of age, illness, infirmity or disability. And this is something that they have to certify to. And if they do, they’re exempt from the photo ID requirement. For other voters, the first time they request an absentee ballot they have to provide a photo ID. If you’re indefinitely confined, you do not but no matter if you’re indefinitely confined or a regular voter casting an absentee ballot, you still must be registered to vote, at which point you have to provide personally identifiable information like your social security number or your driver’s license number as well as a proof of residence document. And all absentee voters are also required to sign the certification on their absentee ballot certificate envelope. And they’re also all required to have a witness as well. And so there are voters historically that utilize that provision and we’re seeing certainly there’s a larger number of absentee ballots in our state this year. But the percentage of people that certify they’re indefinitely confined remains relatively the same.

Frederica Freyberg:

More generally, what is your reaction to the legislative investigation into the administration of the Wisconsin election?

Meagan Wolfe:

I am always glad to cooperate with providing any information that I can about the elections process. Talking about elections, about the mechanics, about how elections work, presenting election facts is one of the core missions of an agency like ours and certainly my position. I’m always glad to present any information I can to the legislative body, to the legislative committee in making sure that they have the information that they need so that voters can have even more facts about the process and how they work and can feel confident in how our election was conducted.

Frederica Freyberg:

Because you have publicly countered this week eight top rumors being disseminated about our election and debunked all of them including things like whether the use of sharpies on ballots rendered them invalid. Does this new lawsuit at all give any more teeth to those kinds of allegations or rumors?

Meagan Wolfe:

We have not been provided with any additional evidence of any types of issues with our election and this suit does not do that either. So, no, I do not think that this changes everything and I still think that everything we’ve presented in terms of facts to counter the rumors and the misinformation that are really prevalent about our election still stand.

Frederica Freyberg:

In the 11 days since the election and through the ongoing county by county canvass, are election officials finding any major swings?

Meagan Wolfe:

There have not been any major issues or swings reported to our office. I should also note that the unofficial election night results are posted by reporting unit on the county websites. They will remain there as are the county-certified canvass results. So anybody is able to see any changes that happened between the unofficial results and the certified canvass results. Those are all publicly available data points. You can take a look at that information but you’ll see that the counties that have reported and we’re close to 60 counties out of the 72 that have now submitted their certified canvass, that we are not seeing any major changes in any of those numbers.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We need to leave it there. Meagan Wolfe, thanks very much.

Meagan Wolfe:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Once the last county canvass is filed by next Tuesday, the Trump campaign has one day to request a recount.

The question of whether Obamacare should continue to exist came front and center this week when the U.S. Supreme Court held oral arguments over whether it should be repealed. Republicans have worked to overturn the Affordable Care Act since its enactment ten years ago. President-elect Biden has vowed to expand it. But the ACA got another test before the high court when it considered whether its provisions like coverage for pre-existing conditions can remain even if the individual mandate to hold insurance is struck down. All of this comes as the ACA enrollment window is now open. Bobby Peterson is executive director of ABC for Heath, a public interest law firm that helps consumers access and navigate the health care system. Thanks for being here.

Bobby Peterson:

Glad to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

What was your take on the direction of the high court when it comes to this question of whether the ACA should be repealed?

Bobby Peterson:

Well, this is one of the most challenged acts in modern history but it’s the seventh time in eight years that the ACA has been challenged. This time it’s some complicated legal arguments that relate to standing. Do the states that are challenging this have the opportunity to challenge, have they suffered a harm? The next part of it is do they have — is the constitutional issue related to the mandate, is it constitutional or not now that they’ve zeroed out the tax. You may remember that originally the ACA passed the Supreme Court review because they considered it a tax. Once the tax became zero, people wondered well, does that ACA — is it still valid? The third issue then is severability and that’s the big issue whether or not because potentially if the Supreme Court finds that the mandate is unconstitutional, does that wipe out the whole ACA. I was really heartened by the conversation of the justices and listening to some of the oral argument that they had serious doubts about whether eliminating the mandate as unconstitutional could take out the whole ACA. So the severability issue becomes quite remote at least from listening to the argument. You never know what’s going to happen. But I think the main takeaway… (video freezes) …right now we’re in open enrollment. It’s an opportunity for people to sign up for health care coverage.

Frederica Freyberg:

Right. So you were just saying that any decision is not likely to come on this until June and, as you say, the enrollment window for 2021 ACA plans opened November 1 and is open until December 1. What should people expect that may be new or different this year? Like how do premiums look?

Bobby Peterson:

Premiums look pretty good. I think generally there’s a lot of availability on the marketplace. We have an opportunity for people to shop on the marketplace. I think a good place to go is the wiscover.com website that we work with covering Wisconsin and the insurance commissioner set up. A lot of good information, how to access help. You may also want to look at your federal poverty limit. There’s a federal poverty calculator that you can click on and go through and estimate what your income is. So there’s a lot of opportunities to sign up for coverage for 2021. If you’re facing coverage challenges right now, it’s a good idea to — if you’re looking at December 1, you need to get an application into the marketplace before the 15th of November. So that window is closing, if you need immediate coverage, on December 1. But there is time to go through and shop and look at options for 2021 all the way through December 15.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Bobby Peterson, we need to leave it there. We appreciate your expertise on this and we’ll of course be checking back in with you as this process proceeds. Thanks very much.

Bobby Peterson:

You’re welcome. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

And that is our program for tonight. Have a good weekend.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.