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The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

Russia’s war on Ukraine surpasses one month, as the carnage continues. And Russia won’t rule out chemical and nuclear weapons. The U.S. Supreme Court rules on the equal protection of Wisconsin’s latest voting maps. And fentanyl testing strips become legal in Wisconsin.

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” Wisconsin’s delegation punished Putin on different fronts: military strengths and economic sanctions. Congressman Mike Gallagher and Ron Kind join us. Senior political reporter Zac Schultz explains the high court’s ruling on redistricting. And the reality of lives saved by detecting fentanyl in drugs. It’s “Here & Now” for March 25.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Reporter:

If chemical weapons were used in Ukraine, would that trigger a military response from NATO?

Joe Biden:

It would trigger a response in kind.

Frederica Freyberg:

President Joe Biden addressing reporters in Brussels yesterday as he met with NATO leaders. More than 3 1/2 million Ukrainians have fled the country and the United States is now prepared to accept 100,000 of them. This as a Russian spokesperson says the country has not ruled out the possibility of chemical or nuclear weapons. Our first guest tonight is a former Marine Corps intelligence officer and member of the House Armed Services Committee. Republican Congressman Mike Gallagher from the 8th District joins us from Green Bay. Congressman, thanks very much for being here.

Mike Gallagher:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So one month into the war in Ukraine, what is your reaction to the horror of what’s going on?

Mike Gallagher:

Well, the Russian blitzkrieg has failed which is a development we welcome but now I fear we’re settling into a war of attrition that not only is going to be very costly in terms of slaughter and lives lost, but it’s still an uncertain outcome. Though it seems unlikely that Putin could consolidate any sort of control over the entire country, he could effectively dismember the country which could be a bad outcome from the Ukrainian people as well as give him a platform from which to threaten NATO more in the future. So I think we are still in the early stages of this and we need to continue to do whatever we can to provide lethal assistance in particular to the Ukrainians who are fighting very, very bravely.

Frederica Freyberg:

As to the threat of the use of chemical weapons by Russia, President Biden said if that happened, allies would “respond in kind.” First what kinds of chemicals weapons are we talking about?

Mike Gallagher:

Well, it could be any number of things. You could imagine Putin striking targets on the ground in Ukraine that could have a fallout, a biological fallout. You could have dirty bombs. Obviously, it could escalate all the way up to nuclear weapons. And then in Syria, we’ve seen him basically use the country as a laboratory for how to integrate chemical and biological warfare into conventional operations. And in partnership with the Assad regime, has at various times used such weapons which was the last time a democratic administration set a red line. Now that the Biden administration has set it, he better be prepared to back it up. Now, I don’t think we should allow the fear of escalation to dominate our actions. In fact, I think that’s part of why we got into this crisis in the first place, is we were so afraid of provoking Putin that that was used as an excuse to do nothing and to delay assistance to the Ukrainians. So we want to shift the dynamic and make sure that it’s Putin who fears our retaliation and that’s the only way we’ll be able to restore some semblance of deterrence in Ukraine.

Frederica Freyberg:

Meanwhile, how much firepower has the U.S. sent to Ukraine and is it enough in your mind?

Mike Gallagher:

Well, we recently passed a over $10 billion package. Now, not all of this has manifested itself in terms of javelins, stingers, sniper rifles, body armor, things like that. There’s much more we can do, but we are finally waking up to the threat and doing a lot more to provide lethal assistance. The areas where I think we can still do more, one, I think we should find a way to take Slovakia up on its offer to provide the S300 system to Ukraine and find a way to backfill their air defense systems. I was in favor of providing the Polish MiGs. I’m not optimistic the president will find a solution for that or change course on that despite his visit to Poland, but the point remains, I think there are more creative options in partnership with our NATO allies where short of a no-fly zone, we can still give the Ukrainians the tools they need to protect themself from attacks from the sky as well as other forms of Russian weaponry.

Frederica Freyberg:

What are your concerns that China starts helping Russia?

Mike Gallagher:

I think this is the most important part of the next phase of this conflict. Prior to the invasion at the beginning of the Olympics, they signed this 5,000-word pledge of friendship without limits. We’ve heard various reports that China is considering providing lethal assistance to Russia, giving them a lifeline. We need to be absolutely clear that if the Chinese decide to do that, then there will be consequences. We will punish them. We should cut off the export of semiconductor subcomponents, for example, that China relies upon. We should already be delisting Chinese companies that are trying to list on American exchanges. Our SCC is remarkably still negotiating with the Chinese over some accountability standards, which are a joke right now. So Russia and China have decided to partner in launching this new Cold War against America and the West, we need to recognize that in order to start pushing back effectively.

Frederica Freyberg:

As a military expert, do you think this could become World War III? Where will Putin stop?

Mike Gallagher:

Well, there’s always the danger that once you unleash the dogs of war, you don’t know what’s going to happen. War is complex. The fog of war is thick right now. As Clausewitz said in war, everything — the simplest thing becomes very difficult, so we don’t know. We do not know. We should be cognizant of the risk of escalation, but I believe our best chance to not only avoid World War III but to also help preserve some semblance of a free Ukraine is to invest in hard power with our allies. We learned the hard way in Ukraine that sanctions alone do not deter. #diplomacy does not deter. Deterrence depends on American leadership and hard power, that’s not just true in Ukraine, that’s the lesson we need to learn and apply to Taiwan going forward before we actually see a World War III fought over the Chinese invasion of Taiwan.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your response to some Republicans including former President Trump who seemed to have been praising Putin?

Mike Gallagher:

Well, obviously Putin’s a KGB thug and a dictator, and there’s a strain of thinking on the right and left that suggests we can somehow peel the Russians off from the Chinese and partner with them over the long term to push back against China. If that were possible, it would be worth considering as a matter of real politique but it’s not possible. Putin has no interest in cooperating with us. Our interests don’t align, and he is obviously, as I said at the start, a KGB thug. In that same interview, I believe President Trump said this never would have happened if he had still been president. He may have a point there because it didn’t happen for four years when Trump was president. I guess that’s the counterfactual we’ll never get to play out, but the point remains Putin is a thug and the only language he understands is the language of hard power.

Frederica Freyberg:

Congressman Mike Gallagher, thanks very much.

Mike Gallagher:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Outside of military force, President Biden is meeting with the group of seven leaders to discuss further economic sanctions against Russia and President Vladimir Putin. Our next guest comes from an economic background and has been voting for measures to apply pressure on Russia’s pocketbook. Democratic Congressman from the 3rd District, Ron Kind, joins us now from La Crosse. Congressman, thanks very much for being here.

Ron Kind:

Hi, Fred. Glad to be with you.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what is your reaction as this war grinds into its second month now?

Ron Kind:

Well, I think Vladimir Putin has made perhaps the biggest strategic mistake of the 21st century. He was expecting a divided Ukraine, a divided Europe, a divided NATO and a divided United States and instead he got exactly the opposite. I commend President Biden for unifying the free world in short order to stand up against Putin’s illegal aggression, but it was also helpful having a very courageous, strong leader in President Zelensky, leading the Ukrainian people and what we’ve seen from them these last few weeks. So we don’t know what the end game looks like but I think it’s going to look very bad for Putin and his Russian military.

Frederica Freyberg:

President Biden said we would respond in kind if Russia deployed chemical weapons. What’s your response to that?

Ron Kind:

A little strategic ambiguity is not a bad thing in this type of situation. We made it clear that that’s stepping over a very dangerous line and there would be severe consequences. I don’t think Vladimir Putin wants to test us on that. I don’t think he’s going to be happy with our reaction or the rest of the world’s reaction if he goes that far.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you think this could blow into World War III?

Ron Kind:

I certainly hope not. I mean, a no-fly zone would be World War III, and I think that’s why President Biden has been clear that he’s not going to have the U.S. implement a no-fly zone. And besides, there are better military tools we’re giving the Ukrainian army to control the air space, from the stinger and the S300s right now. Plus they’re more mobile. These jets from Poland, you need landing strips, you need crew, you need fuel lines, you need trained pilots, and Russia does have a very effective anti-air defense system. So I think what we’re doing now is about the best we can do to arm the Ukrainian army to knock some of the Russian planes and helicopters out of the sky.

Frederica Freyberg:

So the other press on the part of the U.S. and NATO allies is on increasing sanctions, to ban things like armored vehicle parts, Russian oil and gas, freezing Russian assets and seizing these oligarchs’ yachts. How effective are these kinds of sanctions?

Ron Kind:

You know, it’s been a threefold response, not only providing military and humanitarian aid to the Ukrainian people and the free world is standing up and doing that, but the unprecedented economic sanctions that President Biden led and put into place. I was in London a few weeks ago negotiating the high-tech export ban on Russia. Think computer software, telecommunications equipment, microchips and microprocessors. We know the world runs on microchips today. This is going to take a very heavy toll on the Russian economy, and especially the Russian military that needs that and spare parts. The big missing ingredient right now is the energy resources that Russia supplies western Europe. And we’re hard at work, in fact, President Biden just announced a major liquefied natural gas agreement with Europe. They’re dependent on 40% of their natural gas from Russia. I believe this new agreement moving forward is going to reduce that dependency, not just in the short term, but permanently, and again, that was a huge miscalculation by Putin in this war.

Frederica Freyberg:

Can these sanctions be escalated even more?

Ron Kind:

Yeah, they’re taking a toll already, Fred. The ruble is in a free fall. They’re quadrupling interest rates right now. The stock market has been closed for weeks. Inflation is exploding out of control. They have turned themselves into an international pariah. The real question is what’s China’s response? They’ve been ambiguous about which way they’re leaning. Given their close economic ties to the U.S. and European Union, I don’t think China wants to side with an international war criminal, Putin and Russia, at this time.

Frederica Freyberg:

Not to mention a collapsed economy.

Ron Kind:

Yeah, that’s very real and unfortunately, that is happening. And Putin is doing everything he can to turn the Russian economy into North Korea. That’s not a good place to be.

Frederica Freyberg:

Meanwhile, the more than 3 1/2 million Ukrainians have fled their country and the U.S. has now pledged to allow about 100,000 of them to come here. In your mind, is that enough? Is that welcoming enough on the part of the U.S.?

Ron Kind:

You know, it’s a very good start as far as 100,000 refugees coming to the United States, those would be paired up with existing family members who are already here, so it should be a quick vetting process. But we’re hearing that most of the Ukrainian people want to stay close to Ukraine. They want to return to their homes as quickly as possible. As you know, it was the women and children that left, and the men are left behind to fight. I don’t think they want to be separated that far right now, so trying to keep them as close with the humanitarian aid that we’re providing the neighboring nations, I think that’s the right approach right now.

Frederica Freyberg:

While we have you here, before you step down from your seat, how difficult do you think it will be for Democrats to hold the third?

Ron Kind:

You know, I think overall, the democratic message is going to be very strong, very powerful. We’ve done our best to help get out of this COVID crisis the last two years. I can’t imagine where we would be if the Republicans were in charge and denying vaccination and face masks and protecting people. We have a Build America Back Better plan with infrastructure, broadband, healthcare and education. Republicans are offering nothing, other than big lie election conspiracy theories and fraudulent accounts that don’t exist. I just caution people to be careful how they exercise this vote this year. There’s one major party, the Republican Party, who believes that only — the only legitimate election outcome is the one that they win, and that’s a very dangerous place for our democracy to be right now.

Frederica Freyberg:

Congressman Ron Kind, thanks very much for joining us.

Ron Kind:

My pleasure.

Frederica Freyberg:

Also in Washington, U.S. Supreme Court justice nominee Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson sat down before the Senate Judiciary Committee and fielded heated questions. The committee’s chairman has called for an executive session as early as April 4, when the committee’s vote on her nomination is expected to take place. Judge Jackson is thought to have maintained her composure in the midst of intense grilling.

Ketanji Brown Jackson:

I was able to demonstrate, clearly, I think, that the particular parties in the case, the issues in the case, what it’s about, from a standpoint of personal preference is not an issue. I’m setting those things aside. I am ruling from a position of neutrality and trying to determine in every case what the law requires. I am committed, I think my record shows, to the understanding that that is the role and the only appropriate role for a judge.

Frederica Freyberg:

Wisconsin’s senators had this to say about Judge Jackson. Democrat Tammy Baldwin said, “Judge Jackson is extremely well qualified and has strong experience working as a federal judge. She has a proven record of being an impartial, fair and independent judge who is guided by the rule of law, and the Senate hearings made that clear this week. Judge Jackson has shown she has the character, temperament and experience we would want in a justice on the United States Supreme Court.”

A spokesperson for Republican Senator Ron Johnson said he wants to confirm judges that apply the law and will not be judicial activists. From testimony this week, it seems that President Biden has nominated a Supreme Court justice who will tend to impose her policy preferences from the bench. However, he looks forward to meeting with Judge Jackson in person to have a thorough discussion regarding her record, judicial philosophy, and adherence to the Constitution. Both Senators have plans to meet with Judge Jackson in person ahead of the full Senate vote on her confirmation.

At this moment, Wisconsin has no maps showing legislative voting boundaries because the U.S. Supreme Court this week rejected Wisconsin’s new election maps put forth by Democratic Governor Tony Evers. Republicans argued Evers’ maps violate the Voting Rights Act by improperly using race in setting seven majority-Black districts in the Milwaukee area, compared to the former five districts. The nation’s highest court said Wisconsin’s Supreme Court should have looked at whether a race-neutral alternative that did not add a seventh majority-Black district would deny Black voters equal political opportunity. Senior political reporter Zac Schultz joins us to explain the ruling. Hi, Zac.

Zac Schultz:

Hello, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

So by your read, did the ruling from the U.S. Supreme Court come as a surprise here?

Zac Schultz:

I think it did do a lot of observers, simply because the court has been consistent in these redistricting decisions over the past couple years that when it’s this close to an election, they prefer to defer to the state courts in these cases. They’ve done that in North Carolina, in Pennsylvania, and in Alabama on another Voting Rights Act-type decision. So in this case, a lot of people were thinking it’s too close, especially with the candidates about to start circulating nomination papers in the next month, so that was the surprise.

Frederica Freyberg:

So the high court sends it back to Wisconsin justices, telling them basically to figure it out. How inclined are Wisconsin’s justices to get into the business of drawing these maps?

Zac Schultz:

Well, I think they wanted to avoid drawing the maps from the beginning. That’s why they went the route they went, which is choosing from a Republican map or Governor Evers’ maps. In this case, remedying the situation that the U.S. Supreme Court says needs to be fixed including adjusting these boundaries gives them a couple of cases. Governor Evers would say let’s fight and justify the maps that already exist and the map you already chose or they could slightly adjust his map. Republicans, of course, are saying, hey, use our map, it doesn’t violate the Voting Rights Act and it’s close enough to what some of the other measures the Wisconsin Supreme Court wanted in the first place. So they may adjust boundaries or they may pick between one or two.

Frederica Freyberg:

So Justice Hagedorn was the swing vote in Wisconsin that approved the Evers’ maps. Will all eyes be on him this round?

Zac Schultz:

Absolutely. He’s been the swing vote on all of these really important decisions all along. There’s three liberals. There’s three conservatives, and Justice Hagedorn is clearly a conservative in mindset but he has approached things differently and independently in a lot of these cases, and he was the one that set the standard for the least change model that the court decided to adapt in picking the maps and he’s the one who sided with liberals when they decided to pick the Evers’ maps saying that fit in the first place. So he is who everyone is going to be appealing to when it comes to deciding how this get figured out.

Frederica Freyberg:

So Tony Evers is already wanting to submit to the state Supreme Court new evidence in support of his maps and even changes to his maps. What’s happening there?

Zac Schultz:

Well, he’s looking at two different options for how to keep his whole map in place. Either by making minor adjustments in the Milwaukee area and hoping that satisfies the Wisconsin Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court, or he’d like to keep his original map and make a further justification to the U.S. Supreme Court of why his districts actually are legal under the Voting Rights Act. The crux of that argument there is that he says he didn’t get to make the full case in the first place, and the U.S. Supreme Court wanted evidence that it never received in making the decision to say that there was no justification for creating that seventh Black-majority district in Milwaukee.

Frederica Freyberg:

So how much is time of the essence here? Is it critical?

Zac Schultz:

Absolutely, because we’re only a few weeks away from candidates being able to take out nomination papers in these Assembly and state Senate districts around the state, and they need to know the boundaries, because they can only collect signatures from eligible voters within their district. And this gets back to the question of which maps might be chosen. Because if they end up just modifying the Evers’ map or justifying it, then the vast majority of the state’s district lines have already been set. Clerks have been working on those minor boundaries of which ward in which city is in each district so people know where to go. But if the Wisconsin Supreme Court changes course directly and says we’re going to use the Republican map, well, that means every district in the state changes, every clerk in the state has to start redrawing those boundaries, and all those candidates may be circulating papers without knowing where they actually will be running.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what do you think clerks are thinking right about now?

Zac Schultz:

Well, clerks have been dealing with a lot the last two years. They’ve dealt with elections during a pandemic. They’ve had the courts and legislature change things on them at the last minute in all these elections and now they’ve been dealing with all these conspiracy theorists accusing them of fraud. So they’re used to being in the hot seat in Wisconsin elections but this is just one more thing they have to deal with. Ultimately, it’s up to each candidate to circulate nomination papers in the correct district but they’re relying on the clerks to have those districts set. The clerks have been working overtime since the original Evers’ maps were chosen a few weeks ago and they’ll have an even shorter deadline to finalize these once we know the final maps from the court.

Frederica Freyberg:

Meanwhile SCOTUS left in place the Evers Congressional maps making the first district more competitive. Republicans want to challenge that. Does that challenge have legs?

Zac Schultz:

Well, who knows? It’s the Wisconsin Supreme Court. They originally said those maps were fine and the appeal was denied by the U.S. Supreme Court, so you wouldn’t think the Wisconsin Supreme Court would revisit that decision, but once it’s back in their court, they can make any decision they want and justify it really any which way they want.

Frederica Freyberg:

Zac Schultz, thanks very much. Thanks for untangling this for us.

Zac Schultz:

My pleasure.

Frederica Freyberg:

In other news, the scourge, trauma and cost of drug overdose deaths in Wisconsin prompted the passage of a new state law this month that legalizes a screening test formerly considered illegal drug paraphernalia. The tests are designed to detect the deadly additive fentanyl, and in Milwaukee, for those in public health, their new legal use is heaven-sent.

Rafael Mercado:

It’s a blessing. It is a blessing that these are now legal.

Frederica Freyberg:

Rafael Mercado is a community outreach worker.

Rafael Mercado:

What I do is we come out and I have packages similar to this, and we hand them out.

Frederica Freyberg:

Who distributes fentanyl test strips in Milwaukee, including to people in his own neighborhood on the south side of the city.

Rafael Mercado:

Take it out, if you use the drug, test it, drop it in the urine, and just like a pregnancy test, it will give you one line, two lines, and then one that will be higher.

Frederica Freyberg:

Mercado lives in the hot spot for overdose deaths in Milwaukee County. A county that saw more than 7,000 ODs in 2021, more than 600 of them fatal. 80% of overdose deaths are caused by fentanyl, a powerful opioid mixed into other drugs by dealers to increase potency, and that even in trace amounts can be deadly.

Rafael Mercado:

They’re not trying to kill their selves. They’re trying to mask a pain.

Frederica Freyberg:

The problem is so commonplace that even as we talked to Mercado outside the 16th Street clinic in Milwaukee, a person overdosed down the block. Paramedics revived him.

Michael Lappen:

The overdose deaths have increased for several years in a row where we’ve had a new record. So we are just at unprecedented numbers.

Frederica Freyberg:

Michael Lappen is administrator for the Milwaukee County Behavioral Health Division.

Rafael Mercado:

I said you’re good to walk.

Frederica Freyberg:

And partners with Mercado who hits the streets.

Rafael Mercado:

You dip it in, wait about five minutes. So if you get two lines, it’s a negative. One, the high is positive. They just got me handing out more fentanyl strips. I’m handing out more of them fentanyl testing strips.

Frederica Freyberg:

Mercado says the idea is for people to use very small amounts of their heroin, test, and have the emergency OD reviving spray Narcan at the ready. And so how important is the legalization of these fentanyl test strips?

Michael Lappen:

Well, it’s very important because it allows people to make informed decisions about what they’re ingesting. So if someone tests their drugs and they identify fentanyl, they know perhaps I should have naloxone or Narcan available. Maybe they use with a partner so they can keep each other safe. Maybe they reduce their dosage, and maybe they don’t use it at all.

Frederica Freyberg:

As an ambulance tears away, carrying an OD victim, what about the question of whether handing out packages of test strips and Narcan encourages drug use?

Michael Lappen:

Well, people say that. You know, folks have said that all these harm reduction initiatives just enable drug use. I completely disagree. I believe that what we’re doing is we’re maintaining safety, keeping people alive long enough for them to get into recovery.

Frederica Freyberg:

Wisconsin legalized fentanyl test strips in mid-March. Before the law changed, they were illegal, considered drug paraphernalia. Milwaukee County started distributing 1600 of them, with more to come.

Michael Lappen:

The theme is, whatever we can do to keep people alive, we want to do that in our community.

Rafael Mercado:

You know what it’s like for a mom to have to bury her son or daughter or their loved one, their husband? I’m not enabling nobody. I’m saving their life.

Frederica Freyberg:

Milwaukee County expects to receive a larger stock of the test strips from state funds coming from a settlement in a lawsuit against opioid manufacturers.

For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSwisconsin.org and then click on the news tab. That is our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.