Announcer:

The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight, Wisconsin Responds: A “Here & Now” special. We’re bringing you an hour tonight. An outcry over the death of George Floyd by a Minneapolis police officer. We speak with community leaders, organizers and lawmakers about their local perspectives on the national conversation. It’s “Here & Now” for June 5.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Rallies and protests spread across Wisconsin over the death of George Floyd, who died under the knee of a Minneapolis police officer now being charged with second-degree murder. Protesters taking to the streets daily, chanting, holding signs and even shutting down highways to spread their message to end police brutality against African-Americans. Various acts of vandalism, looting and fires occurred. Some say by protesters and some say by agitators. Some days there was no visible police presence, while on many other days, police in riot gear broke up crowds with tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets. On Sunday, Governor Tony Evers activated the National Guard to assist local law enforcement across the state.

As to law enforcement, police reform is an immediate action item. Advocacy groups have released lists of demands on that front. More than 65 organizations cosigned such a list published by the African-American Roundtable in Milwaukee. It includes calling for police to stop using rubber bullets and tear gas on protesters, doing away with curfews, withdrawing the National Guard and shifting funds away from the police and putting that money toward health and housing initiatives. Joining me now is Angela Lang, executive director of Black Leaders Organizing Communities or BLOC. She joins us from Milwaukee and thank you so much for doing so.

Angela Lang:

Thanks for having me. I think this conversation is important. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why has every state in the nation and Wisconsin risen up to protest the killing of George Floyd?

Angela Lang:

Yeah. I mean, I get this question a lot. I think, you know, we’ve seen murders at the hands of police for decades now. You know, even the Rodney King beating. This is not something that’s new for us. But I think, you know, the way I kind of frame it and the way I think about it is that it’s like a soda can that’s just been shaken up for years and decades and with no real tangible solutions and ways for real truly policy reform. To me I feel like this was only a matter of time. I tell people all the time, I was in college when Trayvon Martin was murdered and Dontre Hamilton in 2014 in Milwaukee and Sylville Smith in 2016. This feels different. It feels that society, black and brown and indigenous folks, we’re all saying enough is enough. We keep seeing these things happen. There are these outcries. And then a couple months later, it seems to go back to business as usual. I think what we’re seeing is really community and society as a whole saying enough is enough and we want real policy and legislative changes.

Frederica Freyberg:

Because what does Floyd’s death represent?

Angela Lang:

I think it represents murder at the hands of police due to a structural system that’s really rooted in white supremacy. When we think about law enforcement, we can really look at the history of sheriffs’ departments and law enforcement in general that were really enacted during slavery to catch run-away slaves. When you’re founded on that history and the system has only evolved, it still has its roots in white supremacy. We’ve seen just these killings and murders really just be at the hands of law enforcement that are meant to protect us. It represents the black and brown bodies that are being criminalized merely for existing. You can’t walk down the street. You can’t listen to loud music. You can’t sleep on a park bench. There are so many things that we can’t do and we’re being criminalized just for merely existing. We can’t run away. We can’t wear a hoodie. We can’t buy Skittles. There’s so many different things we are criminalized doing and I think his death and quite frankly his murder is really symbolic of how black people and brown people are viewed in this country and the stereotypes and threats that people think and impose on us.

Frederica Freyberg:

How exhausting is it for you and others to fight the same fight over and over again?

Angela Lang:

It’s incredibly exhausting. It’s draining. It’s traumatizing. It’s triggering. It’s emotional. It’s something that seems like it’s an ongoing issue. I’ve been organizing for about 12 years now, and pretty much since day one, I haven’t always organized around these issues, but these issues always cropped up and really intersected in the organizing that I was doing. And it seems that things aren’t changing. And so much has happened in our country and in this city and in the state just in the last week and a half. And being honest, I cried a lot this last week and a half. Last weekend, I needed to turn my phone off and take a mental health break. I woke up Friday at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning seeing Donald Trump’s tweets about if the looting starts, starts shooting. All of that is incredible dangerous and frightening for communities of color and to have to constantly be in the streets, either taking a knee like Colin Kaepernick and peacefully protesting or escalating, it seems that we’re not being heard and we have to really beg for our own dignity and for our lives to be just as valued as our allies and as white folks. And it’s incredibly exhausting to constantly have conversations and to constantly be in this fight to really just amplify our own dignity that people for whatever reason don’t naturally see.

Frederica Freyberg:

One of the things organizers and advocates have signed on to is an official declaration of racism as a public health crisis. What would follow from that kind of declaration?

Angela Lang:

Yeah. I think it’s really important. I think that’s a first step, is to really label how racism has impacted us. Whether it’s in terms of trauma or being murdered at the hands of police and everything in between. It is a public health issue. When black girls are going missing or are being trafficked, that is a public health issue. When indigenous women and girls are going missing, that’s a public health issue. We should be treating racism like that as such. When we see transwomen specifically being murdered and hate crimes on the rise, all of that, those are hate crimes and that should be treated as a public health issue. And we need policies to really protect all of the marginalized communities. We need to be able to understand the white supremacy that is deeply entrenched in our law enforcement and in our policies. How we’re able to express ourselves understanding our limitations. We’re not really offered the ability to thrive and to dream the way other communities are. I think it really goes to really evaluating how money is allocated, whether it’s on a statewide level or even on the local level. In Milwaukee, nearly 50% of the city budget goes to the police department, while the health department, which houses the Office of Violence Prevention, is only funded at about 2% to 3%. That is an incredible, lopsided budget and it really doesn’t prevent crime and it doesn’t protect our communities. So we really need to think about how we’re investing. Ideally to divest from the criminal justice system. Typically we spend more on the Department of Corrections and the Department of Justice than we do on our education system. That goes to show what our values are. Budgets truly are moral documents and we really need to allocate dollars to actually divesting from the police department and putting it into resources such as mental health. Making sure everyone has access to quality health care, to quality education, to youth opportunities in the summer, transportation, so people can get to living wage jobs. All of those things are factors about a safe community, and lead us to actually have a decrease in crime instead of actually spending so much money on law enforcement that as we’re seeing right now, is only escalating the crime.

Frederica Freyberg:

In the wake of George Floyd’s death, has violence in the streets during protests co-opted the message in your mind and taken attention away from the discussions of racism and deaths of black people and these inequities of which you speak?

Angela Lang:

You know, I think the violence or the looting is being framed in a difficult way. No one wakes up and is so angry and so traumatized, no one wants to wake up and be that angry and burn something down. I think it’s not really our job to tell people how they should deal with their trauma when we’re seeing very public executions. People are saying these are modern day lynchings. We saw when Colin Kaepernick took a knee, and he peacefully protested and the backlash. For people to kind of, for lack of a better term, tone police how people are expressing their trauma and frustration, it’s difficult and I think it’s taking away from the message of the pain and the hurt. And again, it’s not ideal. No one wants to be burning things down in order to be heard. But I think there are some times where people feel that is the only way. You protest peacefully, you’re not being heard. So I think it’s natural and I think it’s understandable that people feel the need to lash out in this way and we really need to in that particular conversation, we really need to be centering people’s lives over the value of property. At the end of the day, property can be replaced, people’s lives cannot.

Frederica Freyberg:

Midweek, as you know, criminal charges were upgraded against the Minneapolis police officer who knelt on the neck of George Floyd and the other officers are now being charged. What’s your reaction to that?

Angela Lang:

You know, I think it’s a step in the right direction. You know, it’s encouraging. We’ll see how the system plays out. If I’m honest, I’m never too reliant and too confident on the criminal justice system as how things play out. We see how it disproportionately impacts our community. We’ve seen time and time again officers being acquitted. Just because charges may be brought, we really want to see the charges be able to stick and people actually being able to be held accountable. And I think also I get this question, too, is just because charges are brought, do I think that the protests are going to die down? And I think we’re living on this precipice right now that it is so much bigger than George Floyd. I think people are really starting to understand that this is a systematic problem and this may have been the catalyst and spark for that change. But people are really peeling back the layers and historical context of everything that brought us to this point. So even if everything plays out the way we want to it, we also need to make sure that we’re making concrete reforms in the future to make sure this is never something that can ever be allowed to happen again.

Frederica Freyberg:

Angela Lang, thank you very much for your time.

Angela Lang:

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Thousands turned out across Wisconsin to protest in the wake of George Floyd’s death, at times causing clashes between police and demonstrators. The common theme running throughout? Systematic racism needs to end. “Here & Now” reporter Will Kenneally has more.

Will Kenneally:

The emotion that filled Wisconsin streets this week was palpable. For one protester who pointed to her skin when asked why she was demonstrating?

Woman:

It’s never going to end.

Will Kenneally:

The death of George Floyd in Minneapolis police custody sparked movements across the state advocating changes to how the police interact with black communities.

1. Adams:

We want community control over the police which will lead to the abolishment of this police as we understand it.

[cheers and applause]

And instead, we want those resources to be redirected to pro-black, to pro-life-affirming safety mechanisms.

Will Kenneally:

The push for police reform has gone on for years in Wisconsin. In the police shooting deaths of Tony Robinson in Madison and Sylville Smith in Milwaukee were front of mind during this week’s protests.

[chanting]

The frustration over the lethargic pace of change reached a boiling point over the weekend.

Police clashed with protesters and storefronts were pillaged.

Brandi Grayson:

Some of us are upset about the looting. I get it. Some of us are upset about the property. I get it. But ain’t nobody offering no solutions or policy change.

[cheers and applause]

Will Kenneally:

Madison Mayor Satya Rhodes-Conway advocated local change, but the crowd in Madison was unconvinced.

Satya Rhodes-Conway:

I’m going to work to do what I can.

Crowd:

What can you do? Tell us what you can do.

Will Kenneally:

To move forward and rebuild trust in the police, what can be done?

David Crowley:

Well, we have to take a step back and realize that we cannot tell hurt people, traumatized people who have been suffering so much pain, how to react to their trauma. We also have to be conscious that we all have a role to play in the movement. Every role isn’t for everybody, but we all have a role to play in this movement. It’s about recognizing that role. This is really about how we lean on one another.

Sheila Stubbs:

It is time to move in that direction, to acknowledge racism exists. I hope no one knows who’s coming back to the capitol, right, that we have a new tone. It’s not just a black issue. If you turn on the TV, our white brothers and sisters are marching too. It’s a human issue.

Will Kenneally:

For many, it’s a chance to be heard.

Cassie Pierce:

People are coming together. We’re making artwork to speak about the value of black lives and make it more visible. You can speak about it, but I think it helps for people to see why we are angry and why we are upset and how we can come together and hopefully make things better one day.

Will Kenneally:

Reporting from Madison and Milwaukee, I’m Will Kenneally for “Here & Now.”

Frederica Freyberg:

These words from Governor Tony Evers this week. “We must reject the efforts of those who seek to undermine and distract from the pain of generations of injustice. We must condemn all those who encourage violence against black lives. We must offer our compassion. We must offer our support. But most of all, we must offer our action.” And Governor Tony Evers joins us once again in our weekly one-on-one interview and thanks very much for doing so.

Tony Evers:

Thanks, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

So the tangible action that you want to take comes in the form of a legislative bill that would make the primary duty of all law enforcement to preserve the life of all individuals and that deadly force is to be used only as a last resort. Why is that what you call an important first step?

Tony Evers:

Yeah. And that’s great, because that’s what — that’s what brought us to where we are today. Obviously, the horrible murder that we saw in Minneapolis with George Floyd and how that happened because there wasn’t the accountability piece in place as it relates to police relations and interactions with folks. And so, yes, use of force is what we’re looking for. It’s an Assembly bill. It’s already there. It’s really straightforward. It’s about making sure those standards exist so that everybody, both the community and the police know what is expected of them.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, it certainly —

Tony Evers:

I’m sorry. But it is only a first step. We have an opportunity now that goes, you know, obviously police relations and criminal justice reform, housing. You name it, we have an opportunity now to really move the needle.

Frederica Freyberg:

Specific to that use of force bill, it is certainly being criticized by the chair of the State Senate Public Safety Committee, who is our next guest on this program. He says it was written “by liberal activists who don’t know anything about police work.” What do you say to that?

Tony Evers:

Well, it is — it was written in large part by the people that were — that were protesting using the First Amendment rights. I understand that the senator has lots more criminal justice and police experience than others do. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t move forward on something around accountability for police. 90%, 95%, you name the high number of people that work in the profession are good. We need accountability for people that, frankly, need some help in establishing standards. You don’t have to be a former police officer to understand that.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about mandating and funding implicit bias training for law enforcement, something like that?

Tony Evers:

Absolutely. There are all sorts of good ideas on the table. And as I talk to people all across the state, but particularly in Madison and Milwaukee, on the ground, I’m not talking about elected officials, people that are living this every single day, they say — and they are accurate — there are enough blue ribbon commissions and enough task forces and enough other things that there are ideas out there that can be implemented. And so I’m looking forward to getting the best ideas, especially from those people that are on the ground. Obviously, we have to get support from legislators. But this should be a bipartisan issue.

Frederica Freyberg:

Thursday you declared racism a public health crisis. What tangible steps will you take to heal that crisis?

Tony Evers:

It’s been laid bare during this pandemic, which groups are inordinately and disproportionately impacted by the virus. It’s African-Americans. It’s Hispanics and other people, people of color. And we’ve been talking about this a long time, frankly. I still believe that taking the Medicaid expansion money that we could have done in the last budget would have freed up lots of money for other programs that would have directly impacted the lives of people of color in this state and helped to reduce that disproportionality. To me it’s unacceptable that we have not taken the money our taxpayers have sent to Washington D.C. and we’re getting no benefit from that.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your position on defunding the police and putting those funds towards things like public health, housing or economic development on behalf of people of color?

Tony Evers:

Yeah. I’ve been asked that question a lot, and possibly even some of the folks you’re talking to tonight are going to be talking about that. But if defunding means remove funding from police officers and the work that they’re doing, the good work that they’re doing, of course I’m not against that. Who’s going to be arresting the person driving 100 miles an hour on the beltline, dead drunk? We have to have some police out there to help us get through these things. But if some of that money could be used differently, around as you talked about before, implicit bias training, psychological help for officers that are working under traumatic circumstances all the time, reappraising how that money is spent to help them become better police officers, I’m all for that.

Frederica Freyberg:

Among the other demands, as you said, that was one, and we will hear about that tonight from some people. But among the other demands from antiracist activists and advocates is to withdraw the National Guard activated in the midst of protests, which, as you know, some of them resulted in widespread property damage. Will you cede to that demand?

Tony Evers:

Well, first of all, the National Guard is sent in when locals ask us for it in Milwaukee and Madison and other places in the state. But my role or my insistence and bottom line is that they serve a limited role. I understand how people feel about military organizations, even though our National Guard has done a great job helping us in the pandemic. So we have insisted with local leaders that they are primarily used to protect property, especially important property like the state Capitol, like electrical situations and water and other utilities, cultural sites. So that’s their role and that’s the role they’re primarily playing. So until they are asking me to have them play a more active role, we will continue to do what I think they’re doing a great job as.

Frederica Freyberg:

You say that we must reestablish trust with communities of color. How do you do it?

Tony Evers:

Well, it’s a long process, but, believe me, we have a long way to go. And one of the things we can do is act, and I believe at the state level we have some actions that we can take to help people that struggle, people of color in the state of Wisconsin. But also we have to make sure that we involve the entire state in this. Our state is becoming more diverse by the day and will continue to operate under that umbrella of changing demographics. And so we need to have these conversations. I think the state has a bully pulpit role to play, but, more importantly, an active role, an action role, that relies on interacting with people on the — you know, elected officials are fine. We’re going to continue those conversations. But the more I and other state leaders spend time speaking to people on the ground in cities and villages across the state on this issue, the better off we’ll be.

Frederica Freyberg:

And you’re committed to doing that in the days and weeks ahead.

Tony Evers:

Yeah. I always have been. This is an issue that I have — it’s been burning in my soul for years. And this — we have — we have a good opportunity in the state of Wisconsin. People are protesting around some really important things, and I’m looking forward to delivering on some of those things they’re interested in.

Frederica Freyberg:

Governor Tony Evers, thank you very much for joining us.

Tony Evers:

Thank you, Frederica. Appreciate it.

Frederica Freyberg:

The legislative bill that calls for making the primary duty of law enforcement to preserve the life of all individuals and that deadly force is to be used only as a last resort is being derided by the Republican state senator who is chair of the Public Safety Committee. Senator Van Wanggaard of Racine is a former police officer. He joins us now from Racine and thanks very much for being here.

Van Wanggaard:

Glad to be here, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

So why in your mind is it wrong to codify in statute the primary duty of law enforcement is to preserve the life of all individuals?

Van Wanggaard:

Well, actually, under Chapter 66 it’s already included in there and it requires each department to have policies in place, both under state and federal guidelines that restrict those officers to acting in accordance with state and federal laws. So just like what happened in Minnesota, this officer that stepped outside of his department’s policies, guidelines and training and did this horrific positioning of his knee on the suspect’s neck, that individual is outside of the policies and guidelines of the force continuum. And he’s been charged with second-degree murder. We have all kinds of criminal statutes on the books that apply to everybody. They apply to police officers, too, not just the people on the street that they police, but the police officers themselves. And those guidelines are already in place under Chapter 60 and under Chapter 62.13, which deals with police and fire commissions, et cetera. There are several layers that would be involved in the process if in fact an individual steps outside of those guidelines. And I’d just like to point out, I was a police and fire commissioner for ten years, also.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so you describe this proposal as being micromanaging of police departments, and you also say that it seems clear that whoever wrote this bill has never served with law enforcement. Why do you say that piece?

Van Wanggaard:

Well, I say that because no matter what is in this bill would not have changed what occurred in Minneapolis and I don’t believe it would have changed any of the officer-involved incidents that have occurred in my recent memory. We need to get at the root cause of why this is happening, and we need to look at specifically how can we address those issues. So we have a piece of legislation that we’ve been working on about two years. We’ve been working on it with Mr. Michael Bell. He lost his son to a police officer down in Kenosha a few years back, and he has been looking for change in how we address some of the officer-involved shootings and how can we train better so that maybe we can alleviate some of these issues happening. So we’ve been working on that piece of legislation, which would get to the root cause. It would look specifically, like the National Transportation Safety Board comes in when there’s a transportation crash in public transportation, something like that. They come in, they survey all of the information. There’s no place they can’t go. They can subpoena. They can do all those different things. Find out why it happened so we can make changes so we don’t have these failures. Whether or not a black man on the ground or a white man on the ground wouldn’t the have made any difference. What this officer did was just absolutely horrendous and he should be charged. So that wouldn’t have made any difference. We need to look at what happened here, where was the failure. And I think that the process, we will now have not only will they have an internal investigation, they’ll have their state Department of Justice in Minneapolis looking at it. I know the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Department of Justice at the federal level and the state level in Minnesota will be looking at it. Just as we have happen here when there’s an officer-involved death. So I think we need to keep all of that in perspective.

Frederica Freyberg:

You talk about root causes of this kind of thing like happened in Minneapolis happening. Would that be training and accountability then?

Van Wanggaard:

I think training is a huge, huge part of it. We’re blessed here in Wisconsin. We’ve got a really good bureau of training and standards, and they work very closely with all of our departments. I guess I lean a little bit towards southeastern Wisconsin with Gateway Technology College and MATC. But they train our officers. They have two-year programs and they’re hands-on and they’re phenomenal. And then every officer in the state of Wisconsin is required to have 24 hours of continuing education to maintain their certifications. So they go through all of the other aspects of interaction with the community, which could be mental health issues, it could be DTAC training, defensive tactics for arrest. All those different things are trained over that minimum 24 hour period. We’re really fortunate to have that. They upgrade that training, so every year an officer has to have at least 24 hours of training for updating on current things that might change how they respond to the community.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Senator Wanggaard, we need to leave it there. Thanks very much.

Van Wanggaard:

You’re welcome.

Frederica Freyberg:

Our next guest is nationally recognized in the field of police reform. Noble Wray is the former chief of Madison Police and longtime officer. He’s now a consultant for community and trust-based policing methods across the country. Thank you so much for joining us.

Noble Wray:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

So as an expert in police practices and reform, when you saw the images of what happened to George Floyd, what went through your head?

Noble Wray:

First of all, just like many Americans, it was just horrific to see that just emotional — it’s just a lot of emotions going through my head. I feel it from a community member, an African-American male or someone that’s been in policing for now over 30 years, really. And, you know, I felt for the family. It was just a terrible, just a terrible set of circumstances.

Frederica Freyberg:

So putting even a finer point on that, how well do you understand the anger of protesters marching in solidarity over racism and white supremacy as they mourn the death of another black man?

Noble Wray:

I understand it from different angles. I came up in Milwaukee. My parents and my family was very much involved with Father Groppi and the civil rights movement. That rings very strong for me. As a police officer as one that has advocated for police but also police reform, it hit me hard because all of those gains we thought that we were making over the years, you know, and recognizing that trust can be lost in just one instant, just one instant, so that was very difficult. But understanding that talking to community members both here in Madison and across the nation, this is a real issue. It’s been a real issue. And one of the things that I think we mistake, we do by mistake in our profession, is that if there is an absence of tension or if people are not complaining to law enforcement, it sends a signal that things are okay. But in reality, this is a perfect example that things are not okay. The tension was out there. The frustration, the decades of frustration was out there. And then this was the match that really hit at the core of so many people. One of the other things I’d like to say, Frederica, this is different. I’ve been at a lot of protests. Madison is a state Capital. This is not a protest. This is a movement. And a movement happens when the people that are directly impacted by a particular issue, they’re not the only ones impacted. This has gone beyond African-Americans. This is gone to– this is worldwide. The other thing in a movement is when you see a shift in status quo thinking, what I’m hearing out there is people are asking for something different. They’re saying we want a response to police misconduct to happen in a more rapid fashion. We want police officers that are engaged in similar conduct to be treated just like an average citizen would be treated. And it should be. If we’re the guardians of democracy, we should be held to a higher standard.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you think those calls will be different this time? Will this be the situation that causes change?

Noble Wray:

I hope so. I hope that the change that takes place, the reform that takes place, goes beyond the moment. And as I alluded to earlier, we get lulled into thinking just because people are not out there protesting that there’s not an issue. Because there are clear issues of reform that need to take place in this profession.

Frederica Freyberg:

Like?

Noble Wray:

Like I think, you know, areas — areas for — I’ll give you an example. I think law enforcement needs to provide disciplinary–automated, disciplinary records to the public. It needs to be transparent. Needs to be done in a way where human resource issues are protected within a department. But I think over time people need to know what’s happening on a disciplinary standpoint. I think Graham v. Connor, the landmark Supreme Court decision that took place in the ’80s regarding use of force, I think those things need to be looked at. I’ll give you just drilling down into that a bit more. There’s a proposal at the state level and that proposal is to look at how do we focus in on the minimal amount of force necessary in a use of force situation. California has passed legislation that is similar to that. What Graham v. Connor did, which there are aspects of it I really like, but it moved us away from focusing in on the minimum amount of force, which I think has more of a moral objective in the operations of police when they’re dealing with the use of force. That is always — when I came on, that was always in the back of my mind. Use the minimum amount of force necessary when you’re engaged in that situation. I think we lost that under the objectively reasonable standard that came out of the Graham v. Connor decision.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so do you support the proposal that exists at the state, a bill by Democrats that deals with use of force? Do you support that provision?

Noble Wray:

I have not seen the bill, so I’m always reluctant to say that I support it in its entirety until I see it. I have just heard about it. And from what I’ve heard, I think it’s going in the right direction. It’s like to see the legislation. But I know that I was tracking California’s legislation on it, and I think they’re going in the right direction with it.

Frederica Freyberg:

The legislation seems fairly brief. It basically says that the primary duty of officers is to preserve the life of all people and use deadly force as a last resort. There are some other provisions, but those are the two main prongs.

Noble Wray:

I think that’s going in the right direction. Again, I followed the California legislation and they had to work that through the language, so that it met the needs. But what it comes down to, one of the things that we have lost as it relates to use of force in policing, is language, statutorily language, Supreme Court language, that reinforces the morality, the ethics, the humanity of policing. And I think that legislation that’s being proposed is trying to get at that.

Frederica Freyberg:

Very briefly, what learned wisdom would you impart on current police officers?

Noble Wray:

Learned wisdom is this, I think policing has really evolved. I think we’ve made great strides. But the learned wisdom is is that it’s constant. We lose sometimes because we get caught up in the day-to-day push of things. I mean, we’re out there fighting fires. It is a difficult job. But the things that are important about our profession, building trust, connecting with people, procedural justice, you know, the competency and the character that it takes to do this job, the guardianship which we’re entrusted with, that takes work and it’s every day and it’s hard to do. And so that is something that we still have to emphasize.

Frederica Freyberg:

We leave it there. Noble Wray, thank you very much.

Noble Wray:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what is the situation on the ground with practicing cops, those still responding and engaging and making decisions? For that we go to Green Bay and check in there with the Chief of Police Andrew Smith. And, chief, thank you so much for being here.

Andrew Smith:

You’re welcome. Glad to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

So I have read that you intend a refresher course for your officers in the use of force in the wake of what happened in Minneapolis. How important do you believe that kind of regular training is for your officers?

Andrew Smith:

I think it’s critical. I think our officers need to know what their job is. They need to know what the rules are for their job. We already started that. We met with all of our supervisors just last week and we all sat down, went over the Minnesota incident. We had our use of force trainers there and the expectation is every officer will receive a refresher on what happened in Minneapolis, what our policies say and what our expectations are for our officers.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do your officers use methods like holding handcuffed suspects down on their necks?

Andrew Smith:

No. That’s specifically prohibited by our policy. We do not do that.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so if you had a refresher on use of force, what were the most cogent take-aways from that for your officers?

Andrew Smith:

Well, we gave them kind of a little bit of an overview about why we’re able to use force, under what situations force is appropriate. But also we talked about the officer override. If you see another officer using force that’s unauthorized or misapplying force, we believe it’s the responsibility of those officers to stop that from happening. And that was reiterated along with the basic rules of you don’t put your knee on someone’s neck. You don’t put them down to the ground and hold them down pinned like that. If someone’s gasping for air or calling for help, you take that as a serious incident and needs to be acted on.

Frederica Freyberg:

You say law enforcement has a long way to go in terms of accountability. How so?

Andrew Smith:

Well, I think it’s a tough job out there, and there’s a lot of great officers doing great work every day. But I think we all come across the bad apple that you hear about. We come across officers who have a long history of getting in trouble. And I think it’s awful tough to fire someone, quite frankly, that needs to be fired here in Wisconsin. So I think it’s incumbent upon the chiefs of police to make sure they are holding their officers accountable at all levels. I think the chief needs to be held accountable too. We have a civilian police and fire commission in Green Bay that holds me accountable. I think across the board and across the country, accountability for officers is lacking and it’s really, really tough to fire a bad officer.

Frederica Freyberg:

You marched with protesters in your city last weekend. What was that like?

Andrew Smith:

Well, it’s not the first time I’ve marched with protesters. Coming from Los Angeles, I’ve done that many times. But I was quite happy to be invited into the protest when they asked me to march with them. And of course I did. And what really I wanted to do was have the opportunity to listen to people, to hear what they say, to hear what they’re concerned about. I understand their anger and I understand their frustration, but I really wanted to hear it from the people that were marching. What’s on your mind? What can we do better as a police department here in Green Bay?

Frederica Freyberg:

Before that you commented about how George Floyd died, saying it sickened you and it was one of the most horrible things you had ever seen. While reading your statement about how you marched with the protesters, we also came upon an article, and it gives me no pleasure to raise this, about a family whose loved one was killed by police bullets in your city and they called you out for your hypocrisy, saying, “we’re outraged and deeply offended that you would use this time of tragedy to make those statements, saying that your department is not at fault,” they said, “for the same unjust actions that have occurred to George Floyd’s family.” What is your comment on that?

Andrew Smith:

Well, first of all, there’s a lawsuit pending, so I can’t speak about any of the specifics of that case. But these were two completely different cases. This one has already been reviewed. The one in Green Bay has already been reviewed by the District Attorney’s office, who declined to press any charges, of course. So they are two very different cases. I understand that family is very upset. But, again, there’s a lawsuit pending. I really can’t talk about any specifics of that.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Well, chief, we really appreciate you joining us and we wish you and your city well. Thank you so much.

Andrew Smith:

Great. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Earlier this week, Marisa Wojcik sat down with the founder of Urban Triage and Madison organizer Brandi Grayson to hear what their demands are and what protests look and sound like on the ground.

Marisa Wojcik:

Can you describe for us what this past week of protests at the state’s Capitol has looked like and sounded like to you?

Brandi Grayson:

The protests have been very powerful in the sense that it’s cross-generational, cross races, cross ideology, right? It’s just a mixture of beautiful, brilliant people who are really fed up with the systematic oppression, right? Really fed up with white supremacy and the killing of black bodies without justice. And I think when George Floyd was murdered on camera following the death of Ahmaud who was chased down by KKK supremacists, it was just enough, right? And with the mixture of COVID, people being isolated and people just being tired of being just oppressed and having their rights taken away from them, so what I’ve seen on the ground, it was really a feeling of community, right? And the sense of we are in this together and that we will be the ones that save us and protect us and we must keep going until our voices are heard and real action is taken. And for us in Madison, Wisconsin, real action looks like defunding our jails, our police departments, investing in people, investing in our children, investing in youth. And one of the other demands is firing Matt Kenny, who currently is a police officer with Madison Police Department who murdered Tony Robinson in 2015, shot him seven times. So we are asking that there be real actions taken as it relates to the violence inflicted on human bodies. And what we’ve been witnessing is community. And what we’re also demanding is community control over police. We need community review boards to have the same power as the police and fire commission. And that power can be granted to community members through our city council and through the police and fire commission. And another one of our demands is free them all. So free them all means all black people currently locked up in Dane County jail. And that responsibility and power specifically falls on our Dane County Executive Joe Parisi and our sheriff. So they have the power to let people out. And what we know is when COVID hit, they did let people out, right? So we know that they can if they really are interested in justice and a fair system.

Marisa Wojcik:

And I did want to ask you about your demands. Your organization, along with Freedom, Inc. and the Party for Socialism and Liberation have made this list of demands. Are these demands in line generally with what others are calling for across the country?

Brandi Grayson:

Yes. It’s in line with the black movement, movement for black lives, defunding the police, reparations for black people and really building resources for the black community. And with the understanding that when we get to the point where we are uplifting black people and we’re supporting black people with opportunity, resources and justice, then everyone is liberated.

Marisa Wojcik:

Where do you see things going? What do you believe the outcome of these protests will be? Or do you foresee yourself protesting every day for weeks and months to come?

Brandi Grayson:

You know, that’s a hard question. That’s totally up to those in power. It’s totally up to our federal government, our local police department, our local mayor, our local Dane County executive, our sheriff. If folks want this to end, then there has to be some changes. I don’t see it stopping until some real actionable steps happen. This is historical. There is a revolution happening and taking place across our country. I don’t see it ending. I see it increasing until real actionable steps are taken to end the violence against black bodies at the hands of our police state. And again, are people in charge that have power. They have to power to end this at any moment. The question really isn’t when the protesters are going to stop. The question is when are those in charge and in power going to start doing things to protect black bodies?

Marisa Wojcik:

All right. Brandi Grayson, thank you so much for joining us.

Brandi Grayson:

You’re welcome. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

A man who has made bridging gaps and bringing communities together his life’s work describes the protests and riots as the voices of those who are fed up around the country. Who are marginalized on their jobs, priced out of their neighborhoods, overcharged for payday loans and over-policed. Michael Johnson, president and CEO of the Boys & Girls Club of Dane County joins us now. Thank you for being here.

Michael Johnson:

Thank you for having me on.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you called what happened to George Floyd a modern day lynching. Describe how this feels for you and the communities you serve?

Michael Johnson:

You know, when I saw it, I was at a grocery store with my wife, and me and my wife met at the University of Minnesota. We went to school at the University of Minnesota. I played football at the University of Minnesota. Had a family that lived in the southern part of Minneapolis. So when I was — when I saw it, I immediately broke down in tears. I was devastated by what I saw. I watched my wife come home and watch it on CNN and watched her break down in tears. And so what we saw was devastating, it was heartbreaking. And to know that we live in 2020 and that these kinds of things continue to happen to people who look like me is just not acceptable.

Frederica Freyberg:

There’s been a lot of talk on this program and others about the use of force protocol for police officers. But in your mind is what happened in Minneapolis the symptom of something much deeper?

Michael Johnson:

Yeah. I think we do have systematic racism in our country that we have to not only address. We talk a lot about racial disparities, we talk about systematic racism. But what we don’t do as a country is make the appropriate investment to address systematic racism. You can only address systematic racism as if you make it a financial priority. A lot of times if you look at local municipalities, they talk about it. When you look at their municipal budget, it just doesn’t align with the plans.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what kinds of funds should they be putting toward things in municipal budgets?

Michael Johnson:

You look at, you know, Wisconsin. I love this state. I’ve lived here for ten years. But we’ve been talking about racial disparities for 50 years. And the fact that we have African-American kids and other kids of color not graduating at the same rates of their white counterparts is a symptom of the lack of investment that we’ve placed in our schools. So that’s an issue within itself. When you look at health disparities and the lack of resources for African-American families and other families of color, it’s fundamentally — the kind of financial support that’s needed is not there, and a lot of times agencies that are led by people who look like me don’t necessarily get the financial support to be able to do this work at all different levels across the spectrum.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so would you describe that as systematic, institutionalized racism?

Michael Johnson:

I would say when you look at — just go look at the boards of directors of our large companies here. Look at the C suites of people who are in the CEO, COO and CFO seats. Look at the managers of most of the organizations that run the corporations in our state. Look at our nonprofit leaders. When you don’t have diversity and inclusion, that’s a form of systematic racism. When you look at the inadequate funding opportunities to address these issues, that’s a form of systematic racism. And so those are the challenges that we see, you know, not only in Wisconsin, but across the country that we have to begin to address. Or what will happen is we’ll be talking about these issues 15, 20 years from now because we have not made the appropriate investments. We have not come up with the appropriate vision and the priorities to support, eradicate these issues that address our community.

Frederica Freyberg:

Protests and rallies have happened across the country and here at home, as you know. Some have turned violent. Some organizers are unapologetic about that. Whereas you call for peaceful protests, and you’re even readying to hire like 75 peacekeepers. What will they do?

Michael Johnson:

Yeah. So one of the things I’m concerned about, immediately when I saw the protest that happened in Madison, started out very peaceful. It was beautiful. You saw black people, white people, young people, gay, straight, LGBT community. It was a beautiful thing. I ended up getting a phone call from the mayor while I was out riding my bike asking for support. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. I saw outside agitators. I saw people influencing young people to break into businesses. It’s unacceptable. We should never, ever utilize the name of somebody that was killed to promote criminal activity. So I decided to hire 75 peacekeepers who would be there to support the protesters, to be there to offer water, to be there if there’s an emergency issue, to be able to call EMS workers, but also serve as a liaison, if somebody is doing something that is going to agitate and create an unhealthy environment, we want to be there to deescalate those kinds of issues. And let me say this, too. I’m sorry. Let me say this, too. That we’ve been talking to the police department, our protest here in Madison have been peaceful the last two nights. We ask the police chief to demilitarize his police force. He listened. I think because of that, and because we have adults out there that want a healthy environment, it has been very, very peaceful the last two days.

Frederica Freyberg:

With just about a minute left, what is your hope as we move forward from this?

Michael Johnson:

I’m hoping that what happened to George Floyd never happens again. What happened to Eric Garner in New York never happens again. I hope that we begin to really not only talk about diversity and inclusion, but we act it out. I hope as a state and as a nation that we make a priority people who live in marginalized communities. What you see in our country is a lot of built-up anger from folks who have been marginalized and it’s going to take people that look like you and people that look like me and people who have influence to help change these critical issues that impact our country.

Frederica Freyberg:

We leave it there. Michael Johnson, thank you very much for joining us.

Michael Johnson:

Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

For more information on the Wisconsin response to the death of George Floyd and calls for action and reform, head to our online news source at PBSwisconsin.org and then click on news. Thank you for watching “Here & Now.” Stay tuned next for “Race Matters: America in Crisis,” a PBS “NewsHour” special starting at 8:00. We’ll see you next week. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Stay well and have a great weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.