Announcer:

The following program is part of our “Here and Now” 2018 Wisconsin Vote election coverage.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here and Now,” House Armed Services Committee Member Congressman Mike Gallagher responds to the North Korean summit. Democratic candidate for governor Paul Soglin is here. Also tonight, an inside look at Tuesday’s special election results. It’s “Here and Now” for June 15.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here and Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

Frederica Freyberg:

President Donald Trump began his global travels this week in Canada at the G-7 economic conference. But it was his departure to Singapore and his summit with Kim Jong-un that captured the world’s attention. Post-summit, the president guaranteed North Korea’s commitment to denuke. But the agreement shows no detail on how, when or with what degree of U.S. scrutiny. Green Bay area Congressman Mike Gallagher is a former U.S. Marine and a current member of the House Armed Services Committee. He joins us from Washington by phone. Thanks very much for doing so.

Mike Gallagher:

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Frederica Freyberg:

So with your expertise in intelligence and international affairs, what’s your initial take on the deal President Trump made with Kim Jong-un?

Mike Gallagher:

I certainly support what the White House is trying to do. I think all of us should want the president to be successful because all of us want to resolve this crisis peacefully. But I do think there are a lot of questions that have to be raised in response to the Singapore summit. And I think we here in Congress are eagerly awaiting Secretary Pompeo or whoever the administration sends to have an honest discussion. Because quite honestly, even the phrase denuclearization that gets thrown around, we simply don’t know what Kim Jong-un means when he says that. In fact, a lot of times that’s being filtered through a South Korean press and it’s getting distorted a little bit. When he talks about denuclearization, he really means suspension of further development of the program combined with Americans getting rid of our presence on the peninsula and our security guarantees for our allies which obviously is unacceptable. And we’re talking about dismantlement. So it’s unclear to me what exactly he agreed to even though the phrase denuclearization gets bandied around. Additionally I think there’s some questions to be raised around the extent to which China is already violating some of the sanctions. The president seemed to suggest as much in his press conference afterwards. If indeed that’s the case, I don’t think we should turn a blind eye. I think we should be enhancing economic pressure on the Chinese because the one thing we don’t want to happen is we don’t want a protracted negotiation process to play out while the maximum pressure campaign is sort of losing steam. I give the administration enormous credit for embarking on the maximum pressure campaign. I think that is the right approach. But certainly we can’t slow that down. It gives us the best chance to resolve this peacefully.

Frederica Freyberg:

Yeah. So should we trust North Korea?

Mike Gallagher:

Not at all. Not for one second. Any objective observer of the last 30 years of our diplomacy with North Korea would have to conclude that the only consistent thing they’ve done is lie and violate and abrogate pretty much every agreement. In fact, in the ’90s in the Clinton Administration, they agreed to halt development on the plutonium track. And then covertly advanced a program on the uranium track. I think everyone should approach North Korean intentions with a great deal of skepticism. Sort of the old Reagan adage is “Trust but verify.” But I think when dealing with this regime, we need to go further. It should be “Distrust, distrust and do everything you can to verify.” Which leads to another interesting point. I mean think about what it would take to ascertain whether Kim is complying with any agreement, even if we get a more detailed agreement later on. If Mike Pompeo is able to work out the details. They would really have to open up their country to intrusive verification and inspection mechanism. In many ways, it might even be more difficult than the challenge we face with Iran. But I think the Iran deal gives us a good example of what not to do, right? We can’t frontload concessions. We can’t allow for the counter party to restrict access to certain military sites. We can’t ignore human rights. We can’t ignore regional behavior. These are many reasons why the Iran deal failed. But perhaps most importantly, obviously the previous administration decided it was going to avoid Congressional approval, not submit it to Congress as a treaty. And I think that’s a large reason why the agreement didn’t out-last President Obama’s term in office. So I think it would be wise for the Trump Administration to submit any agreement they get to Congress. And I actually think that would enhance their negotiating leverage. I’m sorry to go on here, but there’s well-established literature and political science about the nature of two-level games. And basically that means when the White House sits down at a negotiation, they can point to us in Congress and say hey, we got all these crazy people who demand a seat at the table. They need to approve any agreement. That’s why we’re insisting on some pretty tough conditions here. That’s the way our system works and it actually helps the White House if Congress demands a greater role.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, thank you very much for talking with us about this. Congressman Mike Gallagher.

Mike Gallagher:

Thank you very much. It’s an honor to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

A closer look now at the governor’s race in our next in a series of interviews with democrats running in the primary. Tonight we speak to Madison Mayor Paul Soglin. Soglin has served as mayor of Madison for 20 years since his first term in 1973. He’s an attorney and a former Madison Common Council member. He had an unsuccessful run for the U.S. House of Representatives in 1996. Paul Soglin joins us now. Thanks for being here.

Paul Soglin:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So why can you beat Scott Walker over the other candidates running in this primary?

Paul Soglin:

I’m not quite sure what the situation is with the other candidates, but we did a poll. In fact, it was a requirement, so to speak when I asked Sarah what she thought of my running. She said you can only run if you win. So we did a poll to see how I would do head to head against Scott Walker. There’s been some other polls. But the point is you have to create the circumstances that are going to exist as you approach election day. And that means you have to know what we refer to as the negatives of the candidate. Generic candidate doesn’t have negatives because nobody knows who that person is. So we kind of forecasted what we thought they’d say about me. Four things: my age, the fact that I was very active in demonstrations against the war in Vietnam as a student at the university. That I’m “a tax and spend liberal,” and that I gave the key to the city of Madison to Fidel Castro. Well, turns out my numbers in terms of defeating Walker actually get better when people hear that. Probably it’s a generational thing. But in any case, I’m the only candidate with a really robust poll that shows on the issues that I’ll defeat Scott Walker.

Frederica Freyberg:

What do you say to voters who might think you’re not trying hard enough because you’re doing this what you call “supper club campaign” where you mostly just talk with people as you’re out and about?

Paul Soglin:

Well, I’m at a considerable disadvantage compared to most of the rest of the candidates. I’ve got a job that consumes between 40 and 60 hours a week. And so as much as I want to defeat Scott Walker and I intend to, I’ve got those responsibilities. I just this morning turned down a campaign appearance because I have a city council meeting that night.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s run through the issues. On the economy, you say that affordable housing is first. Why?

Paul Soglin:

Well, as we’ve known from the studies, whether you have a job, access to health care, all the other things that are essential for a robust family, if there is no affordable housing, the efforts in these other areas generally fail. And so several states, Arizona, Utah, Minnesota, they have robust housing programs. We’re talking about folks with very little income to working families where you may have two members of the household bringing in $30,000 a year. But if you’re spending 35%, 40% of your income on housing, you’re not going to be able to take care of food. You’re not going to be able to get internet services so the kids can do their homework. Housing is the first and most essential thing for a robust family, so that everyone can then participate in the job creation and all the other economic opportunities.

Frederica Freyberg:

On Act 10 you say “we need to restore full collective bargaining rights for public and private employers.” How do you try to do that?

Paul Soglin:

Well, key is to get the legislature to adopt a new bill which recognizes the role of workers in our state historically, making Wisconsin a place with higher incomes, safer working conditions, all the things that raise the level, the standard of living, whether you’re in organized — an organized bargaining unit or not.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, on education you call for increasing the income tax for high-income earners and possibly the sales tax to fund schools. What do you think the appetite is for tax hikes?

Paul Soglin:

Well, from the work we’ve done, from the feedback I’m getting from the people of this state, they recognize and they are prepared to pay higher taxes for better education. And let’s point out that the question of good schools goes beyond the classroom. We’re talking here about — well, there was a New York Times article this past week. Is Arena going to survive? What happens when you don’t have a school? Speaking with people who are in their 60s, they’re saying, you know, my son or daughter have no intention of raising my grandchild in our community. We have record numbers of young Wisconsinites who are leaving our towns and villages. Go and look at the county population statistics for virtually every county in the state. Normally in the United States, you should have the same number of people in the 50 age group as in the 20s. In some Wisconsin counties you don’t even have half as many 20 year olds as 50 year olds.

Frederica Freyberg:

And you believe that clearly, community schools and schools are essential to maintaining the population. Briefly, with less than a minute left, what would be your response to health care policy in Wisconsin?

Paul Soglin:

Well, we’ve got to undo so much of what Scott Walker has done in terms of rejecting federal programs. We have to recognize the importance of a robust Medicaid program, especially in light of nutrition challenges, behavioral health, substance abuse. Just now some politicians are catching on to the opioid crisis.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you would go for the expanded Medicaid?

Paul Soglin:

Certainly for expanded Medicaid.

Frederica Freyberg:

Paul Soglin, thanks very much.

Paul Soglin:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

In tandem with our series of interviews with the candidates running the democratic primary for governor, multi-media reporter Marisa Wojcik will provide follow-up and context to statements made by those candidates on “Here and Now.” Here’s Marisa’s report on comments made by candidate Kelda Roys related to Act 10 and the supply and demand for teachers in Wisconsin.

Marisa Wojcik:

Democratic candidates to be Wisconsin’s next governor have expressed doing away with Act 10, legislation from 2011 that weakened union’s ability to bargain collectively and trimmed benefits for public sector employees. Kelda Roys said on our program recently that Act 10 was a mistake.

Kelda Roys:

And we’re seeing the effects, terrible effects in terms of being able to attract and retain great teachers.

Marisa Wojcik:

So what does the supply and demand for teachers in Wisconsin’s public sector look like post-Act 10? A January 2017 report from the Wisconsin Center for Education Research looks at these numbers. One takeaway from this report, Wisconsin is not experiencing a statewide teacher shortage. The study also reveals movement among some teachers to other districts where they’ve been recruited and considered for higher salaries. In turn, certain districts, typically smaller and with lower budgets, are more likely to struggle to fill vacant positions because they can’t offer competitive incentives. In 2017, Wisconsin had 54,401 teachers and averaged 16 students per teacher. Compared with other states, Wisconsin ranks 20th for number of teachers, according to data from the National Education Association. Wisconsin is seeing a decline of people enrolling and completing education preparation programs. But this is a national trend. From 2010 to 2016, enrollment in these programs declined 35.4% in the state, but that follows fairly close to the nationwide decline of 33.6%. As for Act 10, Peter Goff, a UW-Madison Professor of Educational Leadership and Policy Analysis cautions us not to focus too closely on that policy but to look toward better targeting of funds to districts in the state that need it. For these and other fast facts, visit wpt.org.

Frederica Freyberg:

That was Marisa Wojcik reporting. In the months leading up to the 2018 fall elections, “Here and Now” is collaborating with Wisconsin Public Radio on their “Beyond the Ballot” series. A project that has reporters traveling around the state to talk to people about the issues they find most important. We asked that question of two members of Wisconsin’s deaf community and how they think their legislators are doing at responding to those issues. They were speaking through an interpreter.

Dori Richards:

I want to see Wisconsin become more open to having deaf professionals, access to licensing here. There’s so much red tape to go through to get licensed in the mental health community. Often we have people going through the educational system, but when it comes to getting their licensing hours, the red tape is almost impossible to overcome.

Brian Fruits:

I have two. One is mental health treatment and the second one is interpreters, particularly around the state of Wisconsin, licensure, certification, et cetera. Some interpreters are working without certification and licensure in the state and puts deaf people in very dangerous situations. We talk about going to the hospital or having critical surgery or going into the court system. There’s a lot of different things that if an interpreter misinterprets, it has a– our lives could be destroyed. It has a very negative effect.

Dori Richards:

There’s a lot of mixed messages. A lot of difficulty knowing who are the truly qualified interpreters within these realms of our lives. And how our lives are seriously affected and how we can get our voices heard through these interpreters and working with these interpreters.

Interpreter:

Dori is saying there’s a lot of things we didn’t mention because often we’ve been brushed aside historically. Brian’s asking her what she means.

Dori Richards:

I mean we did hear about the mental health thing. We heard about the licensure thing. What happened? There was no real follow-up. There was no real follow-through on anything.

Brian Fruits:

So they know about it, but they don’t really help us achieve what we need.

Dori Richards:

I agree.

Brian Fruits:

It’s important to understand the deaf community, deaf/hard-of-hearing, deaf/blind community is not looking for a handout. We just want appropriate laws to prevent discrimination and give us opportunities to work, to prove ourselves. We don’t have a lot of money to make big donations or host political party activism groups. But we’re human and we have rights.

Frederica Freyberg:

For more information, visit wpr.org/ballot.

More politics and election coverage now with an inside look at Tuesday’s special election results. That’s when Democrat Caleb Frostman beat Republican Andre Jacque in the 1st Senate District and Republican Jon Plumer beat Democrat Ann Groves Lloyd in the 42nd Assembly District. What does this mean for Republicans and Democrats trying to set the stage for November? We turn to Capitol Consultants’ Bill McCoshen and Scot Ross of One Wisconsin Now. Thanks you guys for being here.

Bill McCoshen, Scot Ross:

Thanks for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:

I read this headline that said it was the blue wave hitting the red wall. Scot, what do you think of the outcome of these elections?

Scot Ross:

I would say this, with all due respect to the headline writer of that, in the morning, Republicans had two seats. In the evening, Republicans had one seat and Democrats had one seat. That is a democratic victory. Lest we not forget of course that that democratic victory came in a place a democrat hasn’t held since 1977. So it is a great indication that people on the democratic side are enthusiastic about running to the polls. They certainly did that. It bodes really poorly for Scott Walker considering that’s the Green Bay media market where elections statewide are won and lost.

Frederica Freyberg:

Bill?

Bill McCoshen:

I think there’s some truth to the headline. If you look back at the 10th Senate District up in western Wisconsin in January, the democrat not only won a very republican seat, but won handily. So to the extent there was a blue wave in Wisconsin, I think that was probably the crest back in January. What happened on Tuesday night was you had a republican win a seat here in Dane County. I mean this should literally be the epicenter of the blue wave.

Frederica Freyberg:

It wasn’t all Dane County.

Bill McCoshen:

But it’s part of Dane County. I mean to the extent democrats can activate and mobilize volunteers, it should be Dane County, right? Jon Plumer not only won it but he won it by eight points. So I would say the blue wave is dissipating, at best.

Scot Ross:

I would say that Supreme Court Justice-Elect Rebecca Dallet would probably disagree with you that the blue wave was created with the 10th Senate District. I would point out one thing about the 42nd Assembly District. There are 21 seats in the Assembly that Republicans currently hold that have a higher Democratic performance than the 42nd Assembly District. That was a tough draw for the Democrats for that one to be on the ballot. Simple as that.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to ask you about Eric Holder’s group, the former Obama Administration attorney general and that group’s efforts to flip Wisconsin. What do you make of that?

Bill McCoshen:

So they’re two for two, right? I mean they played hard in the Supreme Court race and were successful obviously. They played hard in the 1st Senate District. It’s hard to tell how much they actually did in the 42nd but they were absolutely a factor in 1st Senate District, helped flip that. So they’ve had an impact but do they have staying power? Remains to be seen. Remember you’re going to have a different electorate in November than you had on Tuesday. I mean in the 1st Senate District alone, there will be at least 50,000 more voters than there were on Tuesday. When the percentages normalize themselves, that should help Andre Jacque have a real shot to take that seat back just 142 days from now.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you think Eric Holder’s group is going to play the field?

Scot Ross:

I would hope so. Every bit helps. And I think it shows the opportunity here in the state of Wisconsin for democrats, the fact that they are willing to come here and spend money. Again, back to the 1st Senate District and the Green Bay media market. When democrats win a statewide election, they get about 51% in the Green Bay media market. When they lose, they get about 40%. Scott Walker’s been up there– Friday was the first day in eight days he hadn’t been up in the Green Bay media market. So he recognizes that when he’s hemorrhaging things up there, whether it’s the 1st Senate District or Rebecca Dallet getting 52% up there, it’s a real problem for Scott Walker’s prospects come November.

Bill McCoshen:

The irony of all this as it relates to Holder, his group, they have a name redistricting in it. I mean it’s all about these maps are unfair and he’s now proven that you can win in Wisconsin as a democrat if you have the right candidate for the right seat. They’ve done it in the 10th and they’ve done it in the 1st.

Frederica Freyberg:

So we haven’t talked since the Wisconsin Broadcast Association had to cancel their debate because of the number of people that were going to be included. But in terms of the number of candidates running in this democratic primary, how did this help or hurt those candidates, the sheer size of the field?

Bill McCoshen:

I’d say it helps Scott Walker, number one. I mean the fact that there won’t be a statewide debate, not a lot of democrats know who these people are. There will be a new Marquette Law poll out next week and then they’ll be one a month for the rest of the cycle. But none of them appear to be gaining much momentum to the extent that any of them are. It’s Kelda Roys. And none of them are getting any separation from the pack. So a statewide televised debate would have easily been in all of their interest and cancelling that is absolutely a win for Scott Walker.

Frederica Freyberg:

Who do you think it helps or hurts?

Scot Ross:

I think it helps the democrats, because not having one single debate, let’s not kid ourselves. The criteria for what the broadcaster wanted to do would eliminate over half of the candidates who are on the ballot. The democrats are traveling around the state. They’re getting media. They’re talking about the issues that they think will move the state forward and what differentiates them from their opponents as well as Scott Walker. I think it helps democrats. I don’t think it makes a difference. Honestly the three of us and maybe 20 other people were going to watch it anyway.

Frederica Freyberg:

Apparently there is another one being put together so I don’t want to suggest that there won’t be some kind of an appearance or debate with of these many people. But briefly, with about a minute left, all of this trade war stuff happening with Donald Trump, how does that affect Scott Walker and his kind of allegiance to the president?

Bill McCoshen:

Well, I don’t think you’re going to see any separation between Governor Walker and President Trump over the next 142 days that’s for sure. But as it relates to those trade wars, it’s dicey. Our farmers are very nervous about them. Canada absolutely imposes huge tariffs on our dairy products going north. So we’re all hopeful that the president is successful on this but they are giving him a short leash. If they don’t have new deals by Labor Day, it could be problems for republicans.

Frederica Freyberg:

Last word.

Scot Ross:

Scott Walker is tied to the hip with Donald Trump and that’s disastrous for him come November.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We gotta leave it there. Thank you.

Bill McCoshen:

Good to see you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Wisconsin is at the center of a case heard in front of the United States Supreme Court in October of last year. The plaintiffs in the case, Gill v. Whitford, contend that Wisconsin’s legislative maps are a product of partisan gerrymandering and are unconstitutional. In a weekly online segment, Marisa Wojcik spoke with Malia Jones of the UW Applied Population Laboratory about packing and cracking, two methods commonly used to gerrymander districts.

Malia Jones:

We can find evidence and the lower court did find that we see cracking and packing happening in the Wisconsin Assembly Districts. Packing is — so, as I said, packing is this process where a large number of voters are concentrated into a small number of districts. And so it minimizes their representation in the whole Assembly, right? So they do win seats in a few districts, but only a few. So that’s packing. And then cracking — and packing I think it’s a little hard to argue that there was intentional packing in the Wisconsin Assembly District maps because of just the general patterns of segregation that we see in the city. Cracking is — I think the evidence is a little more straightforward. You can look at the Assembly districts that are in the Milwaukee suburbs and see that the districts are drawn in such a way as to divide up democratic votes.

Frederica Freyberg:

To see the full interview, visit Wisconsin Public Television’s Facebook page or find it on our website at wpt.org. A ruling on that case could come Monday.

Now for news from Green Bay, where paper company Green Bay Packaging announced plans to invest $500 million into a new paper mill. The company says the investment will allow them to create 200 jobs. The new facility will come with environmentally-friendly systems, a switch from coal to natural gas and a wastewater system that will not discharge into the Fox River. The project will be one of the largest in Brown County history.

And finally, an update on an agriculture story we’ve been following. The deadline for dairy farmers to apply for the federal insurance program that provides protection when milk prices are low, we reported on this last week. Well, that program has been extended again to next Friday, June 22nd. You can learn more about the program on WisContext. That’s all for tonight’s program. Next week, democratic candidate for governor Matt Flynn will be here. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here and Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

For more information on “Here and Now’s” 2018 election coverage, go to WisconsinVote.org.