Announcer:

The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” Wisconsin Congresswoman Gwen Moore calls for a ground-up dismantling of structural racism. Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes shares his insights on police budgets and racial justice. Plus, a recent high school graduate leading the charge against racism after his father made national headlines. It’s “Here & Now” for June 12.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Protests over George Floyd’s death at the hands of Minneapolis Police have mainly been in Wisconsin’s larger metropolitan areas. Now they’re gaining traction in smaller cities like this protest in Wausau. It was the city’s third protest in a week. Some 1500 protestors marched downtown chanting for an end to police brutality.

Man:

Black lives matter.

Crowd:

Black lives matter.

Frederica Freyberg:

In Milwaukee this week, thousands turned out for a protest led by Milwaukee Bucks player Sterling Brown. Those on the street said they feel a sense of connection to a nationwide movement. Protesters are seeking to address issues of race and inequality in their own communities. This week demonstrators in downtown Madison painted in huge yellow block letters “Defund Police.” Those words appear along MLK, Jr. Boulevard just down from the state Capitol building. Several of the groups protesting have expressed the defunding or even dismantling police departments is a priority. Following another week of state and nationwide protests over the death of George Floyd, U.S. Congresswoman Gwen Moore of Milwaukee is calling to build a ground-up approach to dismantle structural racism. Also, the Congressional Black Caucus of which she is a member, this week rolled out a package of legislation to address policing. U.S. Representative Gwen Moore joined us earlier this week and representative, thank you so much for being with us.

Gwen Moore:

Wonderful. Always to be with you, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

We haven’t spoken to you in the wake of George Floyd’s death. After police have inflicted deadly force on other black men over so many years, including in your district in Milwaukee, why this time do you think his death spark worldwide protest?

Gwen Moore:

You know, Frederica, that question really deserves a lot of pondering and historians will tell us why, but the reality is that the entire world was an eyewitness to this lynching. And it was a strangulation, very inhumane, very reminiscent of the legacy of slavery, and even those folks who doubted that there were, that there was discrimination and that police were particularly violent to the African-American community, could no longer deny it. I think that it really made a huge difference for people to have to bear witness to such a horrific act.

Frederica Freyberg:

You say that you are proud that as lawmakers you are directing your outrage into legislative action. Specifically provisions of the “Justice in Policing Act of 2020” include banning chokeholds, tracking police misconduct, making it easier to sue police officers, and making lynching a federal crime. And yet you call this just a starting point. How so?

Gwen Moore:

Well, Frederica, I just want to point out members of the Congressional Black Caucus have been working on this legislation for years prior to the untimely and unfortunate death of George Floyd. One of those provisions, the de-escalation training, really was inspired by the death of Dontre Hamilton in my own community, where someone who was asleep on a public park bench ended up being shot 14 times by a police officer. And so that, I can remember as far back as Ernest Lacy, almost 40 years, him dying by strangulation in this town and participating in those marches as well. And this, of course, is a very inhumane way to try to subdue any prisoner, and I think these are common sense things that we think are a start because we don’t think that they are draconian measures. Now, there is a measure to look at qualified immunity and I think that will be the hardest piece to get over the finish line.

Frederica Freyberg:

In regard to that, would you favor weakening the role of police unions, for example, particularly their role of protecting and defending officers’ behavior?

Gwen Moore:

Well you know, I’m an ardent defender of unions. I think unions are very important in terms of bargaining for wages and benefits. But I think it’s outside of the scope of a union to be able to negotiate lack of accountability, to be able to negotiate those kinds of things away. I think that has gone– that’s a bridge too far. And so yes, I support union rights at large, but I do think that the lack of accountability, the lack of trust, we’re never going to be able to build good police community relations, community-oriented policing unless we have some accountability. You know, the piece that I’ve put into this legislation, de-escalation, is something that everybody agrees with. But de-escalation will not work. You can’t train out of a person the propensity to kill, to, if that is, in fact, written into a contract that they are not going to be accountable. And so I think that we have to get rid of that provision in union contracting.

Frederica Freyberg:

Very, very briefly, what will it take for George Floyd’s death not to be in vain?

Gwen Moore:

It will take capturing this moment not only legislatively to deal with criminal justice reforms, but I also think that this is an opportunity to look at structural racism, period. I mean, the dearth of housing opportunities, the dearth of housing– of economic opportunities, the dearth of educational opportunities. I think that here is a moment where everyone in the United States, 60, 70% of people in the United States and globally have just had a — an a-ha moment about how racism affects black people in America and George Floyd’s death was just the end of the story. It’s not the beginning of the discrimination.

Frederica Freyberg:

Representative Gwen Moore, thanks very much for joining us.

Gwen Moore:

Thank you Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

Republican U.S. Representative James Sensenbrenner from Wisconsin’s 5th Congressional District sits on the Judiciary Committee which took testimony this week on the House bill on police reform. During the hearing, Sensenbrenner said legislation must look at police unions to get rid of what he calls bad cops.

James Sensenbrenner:

The sooner we get the bad cops off the force, the sooner there will no longer be any bad apples to spoil the whole barrel.

Frederica Freyberg:

This week, Governor Tony Evers ended the Wisconsin National Guard’s mission to help restore peace and order in the wake of the George Floyd protests. Nearly 1500 troops mobilized over the last week in response to requests from cities across the state. 125 troops were deployed in Milwaukee. Additional requests for help from guard troops came from authorities in Madison, Green Bay, Kenosha, and Racine.

Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes joined reporter Marisa Wojcik this week on her online “Noon Wednesday” program to talk about police reform, racism and reallocating police budgets.

Mandela Barnes:

Every other budget that gets cut it seems like oh, well, you know, we just had to cut this budget. We had to do what we had to do. We had to tighten up our purse strings. We had to tighten up our belt. But the minute you talk about reducing a police department’s budget, it’s like all hell breaks loose and everybody acts like you are signaling Armageddon. But that’s not the case. It’s about reallocating funds in a way that actually promotes safety and I don’t think that when virtually every department and every level of government sees these sweeping cuts that all of a sudden police officers are being attacked because they are being asked to do the same thing as everybody else in government. Especially at times like now where revenues are down, given the economic devastation that COVID-19 has brought about, you know, cities are going to be strapped for cash, counties are going to be strapped for cash, our state is going to be strapped for cash. So we’re going to have to take a hard look at what is being funded at what level and you know, what is going to make the most sense for us to see a full recovery in Wisconsin. And not just back to normal, but because life after COVID is going to be much different than life before COVID, no matter how you look at it. That’s a reality I think people are not necessarily — have not necessarily grasped because it’s a tough one. It’s a tough one to not imagine things going back to the way they were, but we shouldn’t want things go back to the way they were. We should want things to be much better and much more equitable.

Marisa Wojcik:

You’ve worked on these issues for a long time and you’ve said you’re tired of disregard for black lives. What do you say to those who are like you who are experiencing this fatigue in this time?

Mandela Barnes:

That is — that is a really good question because folks are experiencing fatigue, and now that we are in the midst of this, of mass demonstrations across the country, I think that our mental health is even more important because with every speech, with every sign, with every list of demands laid out by protesters and organizers, we see things within our own lives that we have experienced that we probably shouldn’t have had to. Things that folks have brushed off. Adversity that was, you know, undue and unjust and that can weigh heavily. Because you carry a different burden. I’ll even say myself in this position, I’m honored to have this position, especially at a time like this, but there are so many folks who are just kind of comfortable and that comfort is again one of the many reasons why we are where we are and there’s a burden that I notice that a lot of folks, too many people in elected office don’t have to carry. Some people, and it’s amazing, too, when you think about how many elected officials were able to get into office without ever considering the issue of racial justice, never having to talk about the issue of racial justice, never having to confront their own bias, never having to confront their own comfort with racism, and they have gotten pretty far. There a lot of people who are just fine and there are some people who, you know, might sit back and now look at the polling data and you see them send out an email that talks about the issues of the day, because the polling data is in favor of the plight of African-Americans, of marginalized communities, people of color across this country and they’ll send out a tweet or something and that will be it. And they still get to go home and rest comfortably. And sometimes I wish I had that same comfort. But these things remain on my mind because I think about my own family members who got mixed up in the criminal justice system. I think about my own family members who’ve experienced policy violence. I think about my own friends and family members that I’ve lost to gun violence, too. And not everybody shares the governing burden the same when it comes to an issue that is this heavy.

Frederica Freyberg:

For his part, Governor Evers was not able to join us for this program. His administration is under fire this week from Republican legislative leaders for taping a phone meeting about a COVID-19 plan. At a media briefing on Thursday, Evers said a staffer wanted the recording for note taking, and he did not know about it. He said the practice has ended. He says he doesn’t believe that matter should stall talks on police use of force and systemic racism. First, Republicans and the Democratic governor were at odds over the path forward when dealing with coronavirus. Now another contentious issue when it comes to police reform. Republican Assembly Majority Leader Jim Steineke joins us from Kaukauna this week with his insights. Thanks for being here.

Jim Steineke:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

We have not spoken in a couple weeks. What is your reaction to the deadly force used in the death of George Floyd?

Jim Steineke:

Absolutely horrific. I can’t imagine anybody that could watch that video, over eight minutes the officer kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, him pleading for help, and eventually passing away and not feel the outrage that I think everybody should feel. It was disgusting. Something there is no place for in law enforcement and we’ve got to work to make sure these cases don’t reoccur.

Frederica Freyberg:

A democratic bill at the state Capitol would make the primary duty of all law enforcement to preserve the life of all individuals and that deadly force is to be used only as a last resort. How willing is the Republican majority to get behind this legislation?

Jim Steineke:

Well, yeah, I guess when it comes to that particular piece of legislation, I’m not exactly sure what the goal is because that is already in place in police departments all over the state. Police departments all over the state already have a goal of de-escalation, minimizing the use of force. I mean, when we talk about the use of force in law enforcement, I think it’s somewhere around less than 1% of the cases where there’s any kind of use of force in an arrest. So we are talking about a small minority of the cases, but obviously when you have situations like George Floyd, and others who have fell victim to police brutality, it heightens the issue and highlights it more, but there’s already these policies on the books throughout the state.

Frederica Freyberg:

Policies on the books would be different than state statutes, something passed by legislators. What would you like to see in your initial comments about your horror about what happened to George Floyd. You said that really something needs to be done. What would that be?

Jim Steineke:

I mean, it’s hard as a legislator to admit that we don’t have all the answers. It’s hard to put forward pieces of legislation that will end racism and change the hearts and minds of people that do harbor those racist tendencies. I think we have to be careful going forward that whatever we do is done in a vein that makes sure we protect the health and safety of our citizens. Make sure that people of color living in our communities don’t fear the police. That is something that as a white male I just don’t understand. So I want to understand that better and the conversations have to be held with people of color throughout the state, leaders in our communities, law enforcement, the faith community, we have to have a broader conversation about race and what we can do as a society as a whole, not just through legislation, but through societal change and reforms that will help move this process along further.

Frederica Freyberg:

I know that Governor Evers would like to see legislation hit his desk around this issue of police reform. Are you saying that that’s not going to happen and that — are you willing to speak with him about this?

Jim Steineke:

Well, yes. Certainly we are willing to speak with him. I mean — that’s something that I would, I think everybody is open to conversations about legislation going forward. I think like I said, we are not saying legislation does not need to happen, but I think the broader conversation needs to happen. People have to remember in Wisconsin we have already done some reforms to how officer-involved shootings are investigated and other things that kind of have changed the conversation over the course of the years and moved us forward. But continuing those conversations is critical and especially heading into the next legislative session.

Frederica Freyberg:

Have you had any of those conversations yet with the Evers’ administration?

Jim Steineke:

No, the Evers’ administration has not reached out to us. Obviously given the news of this week with his secretly tape recording our conversations that has put a wedge in between the two sides even further than was already there, and has damaged some of the trust that we were trying to build going forward so we can have some conversations about these monumental issues. But hopefully the Evers’ administration will recognize how serious a mistake that was to secretly record these conversations and do something about it.

Frederica Freyberg:

I do know on that that the governor said he himself was not aware of that but understood and thanks very much, Representative Steineke, for joining us.

Jim Steineke:

Absolutely. And thank you. And it’s important, if he did not understand that was going on, I take him at his word. But then somebody should– whoever authorized this in his office should pay the consequences for it.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Representative Steineke, thank you.

Jim Steineke:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Among the protesters this week the voice of a teenager is being heard. Noah Anderson is a recent Madison West High School graduate. He became active in issues of race and equality after his father made national headlines. Marlon Anderson is the West High School security guard, who under a “no tolerance policy” was fired for using the n-word. Marlon Anderson was telling a disruptive student to stop using the word and repeated it as he did so. He eventually got his job back but the incident prompted his son Noah into action, including staging a student walkout. Noah Anderson joins us this week from Madison where we talked with him earlier. Noah, thanks very much for being here.

Noah Anderson:

Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, as a member of the Black Student Union you helped organize a school walkout in support of your father and against a policy that did not allow for the nuance of the circumstance. That walkout protest drew some 1500 participants. How did that experience help shape who you are today?

Noah Anderson:

Yeah, no, yeah, you were about 1500 people had walked out. My experience in the school was pretty iffy. That really showed me that, you know, I had people that stand in my line, standing with me with unity and solidarity. But it was about, I believe, 80%, 85% of the school that had walked out that day. Really what that day and what that experience taught me was this is my calling in life, you know, this is what God set me on the earth for because of how everything played out. No way in the world would that have– that case get the amount of attention that it did. You know, Cher had reacted to it. I heard the queen of England reacted to it. The whole world reacted to it and you see what’s going on right now with black lives matter, it’s like, it’s like I had a dream. Like, you know, I’m not Martin Luther King but I had a dream. I’m a religious person and God showed me that this is the final walk to the Promised Land for my people. So that experience really shaped me and God was just showing me through that little experience that this is, this is the beginning of, you know, what’s soon to come. My dad lost his job and that is sad but without him losing his job, it would not have brought light to the MMSD’s problem in the school. So, him losing his job, he got his job back with extra benefits. So you know, he was taken away for a little bit but then it was given back to him. Pretty much a lot like the story of Job, if you know anything about that. But really, in that experience, God showed me this is my calling and it’s what he put me on this earth to do. So — yeah, I mean, I’m really excited for what’s coming up next.

Frederica Freyberg:

So all of that said, what was it like for you to see the death of George Floyd and now to see the global protests over his killing?

Noah Anderson:

So I actually, I chose not to watch that video. I know about it, I know about everything. I couldn’t see a man lose his life through a ten-minute video. Really like my mind, you know, the liberation of my people, that’s been set in my heart for, since I say sophomore year. I was not always, you know, conscious in my black history and conscious of who I was, but actually Ahmaud Arbery is what really struck me because the difference between George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery, Ahmaud Arbery was killed by civilians and George Floyd was killed by a cop. And we know police brutality been going on far before I was born, far before any of us was born that’s living today, but Ahmaud Arbery was killed by a civilian, later found out was an active member of the KKK. That’s what really scared me. Because you know, for them to get away with that for three months until a video had came out, that scared me and made me think how many people that look like me are dying and I can’t see it. You know, we can’t see just because there’s no media attention.

Frederica Freyberg:

What was that moment that you realized that you could make change through activism?

Noah Anderson:

The moment I realized I could make change through activism was definitely what happened with my dad. And not to be mistaken, that was not just me, that was everybody, you know. My entire BSU in the school could not have been done without everybody because change comes with numbers. But that was a time showing me how much change made, how much media attention it got within, legit, a couple of days. That showed me that this could actually, we could actually change, especially that it was a big case, you know, my father losing his job over something like that, you know what I’m saying, but really for it to get that much attention really is what showed me that I could make change, or we can make change through activism.

Frederica Freyberg:

Noah Anderson, we leave it there. We wish you well in your future endeavors. Thanks very much.

Noah Anderson:

Oh, no, thank you so much for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

That’s our program for this week. Be sure to join us online throughout the week for updates on the COVID-19 pandemic and other news at PBSwisconsin.org and then click on the news tab. Also for ongoing in-depth coverage of the coronavirus response in Wisconsin, visit our partner news site at WisContext.org. This week an examination of death and recovery rates in Wisconsin. That’s WisContext.org. Thank you for watching “Here & Now.” Stay well Wisconsin and we will see you next week. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.