Announcer:

The following program is part of our “Here & Now” 2018 Wisconsin Vote election coverage.

Frederica Freyberg:

Im Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” U.S. Senator Ron Johnson is here to talk NATO, Russia and Supreme Court news. We’ll hear from incumbent candidate for governor Scott Walker and his primary opponent Robert Meyer. We have highlights from last night’s democratic candidate debate as well. It’s “Here & Now” for July 13.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

Frederica Freyberg:

President Donald Trump stormed Europe this week, first to Brussels and the NATO meeting, then to London where he will remain for meetings until Sunday. At NATO he ruffled Allied feathers with calls for more European nation military spending and complaints that Germany is too beholden to Russia for oil. Concerns that his messages suggested a desire for the U.S. to leave NATO were somewhat offset as the president left the summit declaring that the United States’ commitment to NATO remains “very strong.” All of this takes shape with a backdrop of stepped-up tariffs against China and in advance of President Trump’s meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Helsinki on Monday. And we have a new nominee for the U.S. Supreme Court. We will take all these topics now to Republican U.S. Senator Ron Johnson who himself recently returned from an official visit to Moscow. In addition to being chair of the Homeland Security Committee, Senator Johnson is chair of the Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European and Regional Security Cooperation. And senator, thank you very much for joining us.

Ron Johnson:

Well Frederica, and we have a couple hours to discuss all this, right?

Frederica Freyberg:

Yes, just about eight minutes, sir. So let’s get started. This week the U.S. Senate, including yourself, I understand, voted to defend NATO even as President Trump presented this tough tone with alliance countries over defense spending. Why the need to defend NATO?

Ron Johnson:

Well, there are some questions based on some of the president’s rhetoric, but the president’s right. President Bush, President Obama urged NATO countries to live up to the 2% commitment. I think because the President Trump’s cajoling, hopefully they will live up to that commitment sooner. More are living up to the 2% and more are saying they’re going to speed up their commitment. So that’s a good thing. We have a number of NATO partners that are opposed to Nord Stream 2 pipeline, believing, as I do, that the construction of that pipeline will increase Russias geopolitical power within Europe. So the goals that President Trump is stating that he’s pushing for, it might ruffle some feathers, but they’re things that absolutely are necessary. But as chairman of the European Subcommittee on Foreign Relations, I meet with European delegations all the time. That tough talk is not something they’re used to hearing. But I conveyed to those European partners that as the first branch of government, Congress is unanimously, I think unanimously supportive of a long-term relationships with both Europe and NATO. So we just assure them that even with President Trump’s tough negotiating stance, I believe he’s firmly committed to NATO as is Congress.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, next up the president’s summit with Vladimir Putin. You were in Russia yourself last week and quoted as saying that Russian meddling in the 2016 elections didn’t represent “the greatest threat to our democracy.” So no big deal?

Ron Johnson:

It is a big deal. It’s very serious. It’s not acceptable. But I was actually in the secure briefing in September 2016 when the Obama Administration advised the big eight plus chairman of Homeland Security, both and ranking member of both houses, that Russia tried to hack into voter files but we’ve got it covered. DHS is working with the states and they’re asking us at that point in time to go out and let the American people know that we’ve got it covered and that the election will be legitimate in November of 2016. But then the wrong person lost and all of a sudden there’s this narrative that it’s the greatest threat to our democracy. It’s unacceptable. It’s serious. But it is not the greatest threat to our democracy. I don’t want this blown out of proportion. I went to Russia because Russia holds close to 7,000 nuclear weapons. They are an unfriendly adversary. They’re being aggressive throughout the world, particularly in eastern Asia. They are disrupting elections. They were part of a potential plot to assassinate the prime minister of Montenegro. So I take all these things very seriously. I happen to think the dialogue with Russia is important. And particularly at all levels. It’s good that we’re having head of state dialog. It’s important at the ministerial and secretarial level. But parliamentarian and legislative level is also incredibly important. Just like our military exchanges in terms of deconflicting in Syria is important. Dialogue, from my standpoint, is good. If we can build relations particularly at a time of crisis, could be crucial. That’s what I was trying– certainly trying to do last week when I was in Moscow.

Frederica Freyberg:

Moving to another matter, what do you think of the escalating trade war the president has sparked with his imposition of tariffs and then the resulting retaliatory tariffs that clearly affect Wisconsin?

Ron Johnson:

Im highly concerned. I’ve made those views public for quite some number of months now. President Trump is absolutely correct when he’s demanding reciprocal treatment on trade from all the trading partners. He’s absolutely correct when he points to China as being the primary abuser of world trading rules. But I just happen to think the best way to get China to abide by those rules is in a united front of the rest of the trading world pressuring China to behave. So I’m highly concerned. President Trump in his administration are talking about using this negotiating tactic. Okay, fine. But use that leverage. Bring these negotiations to conclusion so we can move forward because we’ve– president’s done a great job. He stopped and ended the regulatory burden. We have a more competitive tax system. He’s brought certainty and optimism to the economy. This trade war is bringing uncertainty and could undo all the positive things he has done previously.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, you’ve expressed frustration, displeasure, even disbelief over the Department of Homeland Security’s policies and ability to reunite families separated at the border. At week’s end does your frustration persist?

Ron Johnson:

Well the good news now is we’ve gotten some information. Ive had good conversations with Secretary Nielson, Secretary Azar, the head of CBP Commissioner McAleenan, and I have been reassured that their first and foremost concern is the welfare of the children. I truthfully believe that. And once we finally started getting the kind of information — they’re reluctant to give it. Quite honestly, the whole court case threw their plans in disarray. CBP’s process generally takes about 44 days. HHS’s process in terms of identifying for sure the adult was the parent took about 48 days. They were on path to marry those processes and to have a pretty good effect. The court requirement that they do this in a couple weeks really threw them in disarray. So now I understand that. But primarily I understand that the secretaries, the commissioner, their first priority is the welfare of the child. We’re starting to see in terms of the five-year-olds, the 103 children less than five years, they’re reuniting those that could be reunited. They’ve identified some children that are ineligible for reunification because it puts the safety of the child at risk. They’ve also identified a certain number of those children where they don’t have enough information to make sure the child’s safety won’t be put at risk. So again, I think it’s important the American public understand the officials in the Trump Administration are primarily concerned about the safety of the children.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your position on the zero tolerance policy that resulted in the separation of children from their parents?

Ron Johnson:

The Trump Administration is trying to enforce the law and what — you know, and they knew this. They found out that in trying to enforce the law, unfortunately you’re forced — when people come into this country illegally, because of I think bad legal precedent, legal loopholes, bad law, we’re forced to separate those families. If they present themselves to port of entry and claim asylum, they’re able to be kept together. But when they come to this country illegally, in order to for us to adjudicate those claims, with the clock ticking, the administration was forced to separate the families. Now, because the Trump Administration has ended that enforcement policy, what we virtually have is an open border, because now people come to this country. If they do it illegally, they come across the borders, they’re going to be unified and we’re going to have to release them into the interior and it’s going to be more difficult to actually have them show up at hearings and it’s going — it’s actually going to incentivize more people coming in here in family units. By the way, they’re gaming the system. When I was talking to the commissioner, he said the number of people coming in families is down because people are realizing that one child per one adult is going to be the best way to exploit our system. So we’ve got a horribly broken legal immigration system. We need to fix that. I’m trying to do that as chairman of Homeland Security. My problem is most of these laws don’t come under my committee’s jurisdiction. I’m kind of dependent on the Judiciary Committee acting in a bipartisan way which I think we could probably do in our committee is work in a nonpartisan way to try and fix these specific problems.

Frederica Freyberg:

I need to get your take on the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh.

Ron Johnson:

I think Brett Kavanaugh is a excellent choice. Obviously, highly qualified as a jurist. But just a decent person. And what gives me comfort in terms of this nomination is Brett Kavanaugh is a judge. A couple quotes, this is from Judge Kavanaugh. “A judge’s job is to interpret the law, not to make law, not to make policy.” Very similar to what Neil Gorsuch talked about a judge’s role was to apply the law, not to alter it. That’s all I’m looking for is a well-qualified judge. I don’t want a legislator. I don’t want a activist jurist on the court. I want a judge, which means a lot of times he’ll make rulings that I won’t really like because I don’t like a lot of law. But it’s my job to try and change those laws, not rely on judges to change them for me.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Senator Ron Johnson, thanks very much for your time.

Ron Johnson:

Have a great day.

Frederica Freyberg:

We spoke with Senator Johnson before the news came this afternoon of the indictment of 12 Russian military intelligence officers for hacking Hillary Clintons presidential campaign and the Democratic Party. In response to that, Johnson said, “Any foreign interference in our elections is unacceptable.” Democratic Wisconsin U.S. Senator Tammy Baldwin said, “This isn’t a hoax and the Special Counsel’s investigation is not a witch hunt.” As to the nomination of Judge Brett Kavanaugh for the U.S. Supreme Court, Baldwin says she will not vote to support him, saying, “The stakes are too high for the American people, who do not want the Supreme Court to advance a political agenda to overturn the law of the law on health care for people with pre-existing conditions, women’s reproductive health and the constitutional rights and freedoms of all Americans. The people of Wisconsin need a fair, impartial and independent Supreme Court justice who will stand up for them, not for the powerful special interests. I don’t have confidence that Judge Kavanaugh would be that justice.”

Now to our continuing coverage of the candidates running in the primary race for governor. In past weeks we’ve been introducing you to democrats running in the primary. Tonight, we shift our attention to the republicans. Incumbent candidate Governor Scott Walker declined our invitation to appear in our studio. However, I was able to catch up with him on the campaign trail in Milwaukee County last night. That’s where he held a rally as a counter event to the democratic debate taking place across town. His message to the media as well as volunteers was his intent to remain positive, but not to get complacent.

Scott Walker:

I would imagine there’s a lot of people on the left who feel frustrated, maybe they didn’t do more or something in that regard. So they’re extra energized in that regard. Again, we’ve got to make sure that even though I won three elections with the help of a lot of people here in this room and other grassroots volunteers like them, that nobody takes it for granted.

What a great crowd on a great day. We’ve got a lot of work ahead of us. In fact, it’s actually kind of` timely tonight because the eight democrats who are running for governor are having a debate tonight. We’re going to see a stark contrast because their rhetoric is increasingly not only becoming more and more dangerously liberal. They’re increasingly talking with rhetoric that’s filled with more and more anger and hatred. We believe this election will be won based upon what people hear we’re for and they’re able to see, not through the filter of others telling them that, but you’re able to deliver personally to people at the door, at work, at worship, wherever it might be. We can give you the clipboard and paper, if you want the old fashioned way or we can take your cell phone and tell you right where the walk list is. You can go right down the block over here. We can tell you where the voters are, where they stand and then we just queued it up, I just did the videos for this, we can actually allow you to go to the door. And when someone says my most important issue is education or taxes or the economy or welfare or transportation, whatever it might be, you can actually personally deliver to them a 60 to 90-second video from me telling you about what we’ve done and, more importantly, what we’re going to do going forward.

We need to make sure that, not just our activists but voters — not just those on the right but independent voters who have routinely helped us win elections are motivated and that complacency we thought for some time would be a concern to this election. People say the economy is good, budgets are balanced, schools got more money than ever before. They assume we’ve won three times before which we have and say, “Well, it’s not going to be a tough race.” We think it will be a tough race just because the momentum, in terms of turnout is definitely driven by those with anger on their side. We hope to counter it with, again, not only our optimistic story, but with a good amount of organization.

Frederica Freyberg:

On the issues, Governor Walker also touched on his economic cornerstone of Foxconn, highlighting how it will benefit Wisconsin beyond the southeast corner of the state.

Scott Walker:

We see it in Green Bay, where there’s going to be 200 high-tech jobs. I hinted the other day in Eau Claire that there will probably be another announcement. Maybe not quite exactly the same but some more good news up in the Chippewa Valley tied into Foxconn. You look overall 10,000 construction jobs, people from Black River Falls, from Brownsville, from Marathon City, places all over the state of Wisconsin are benefiting from it. Long-term you’re going to see supply chain. You’re going to see small businesses benefiting just like they do with other companies in the state, like Oshkosh Corporation. They do business with about 700 companies in 140 different communities across the state. When Foxconns fully operational, they’ll do four times that amount. But probably the most exciting thing I found, whether it was up in Wausau at Northcentral Technical College or elsewhere across the state, is talking to students who are enrolled in programs in hopes they can either work for Foxconn or companies related to Foxconn. To me, I think that’s the biggest impact statewide.

Frederica Freyberg:

At their debate democratic primary candidates for governor voiced fierce opposition to Foxconn.

Tony Evers:

It was the worst deal on record. Scott Walker, any of us on stage, anybody in the audience here, frankly, could have cut a better deal than Scott Walker did.

Matt Flynn:

We are paying a foreign company $4.5 billion to pollute Lake Michigan and I’m not going to stand for that. I’m going to go in and shut them down.

Mahlon Mitchell:

If we’re going to have Foxconn come in here and pay $4.5 billion and we’re going to pay them $4.5 billion to actually do business here in the state of Wisconsin, we need to make sure that those that are under-employed and those that are unemployed can get to those jobs.

Josh Pade:

We are talking about Foxconn which is a tremendous impact on southeastern Wisconsin, the southeastern Wisconsin economy. How can we connect what’s going in southeastern Wisconsin to northwestern Wisconsin, to northeastern Wisconsin?

Kelda Roys:

There are a lot of politicians who want to give our money away, in big corporate welfare deals like Foxconn. But ultimately we can’t pay companies to create jobs.

Paul Soglin:

The governor does not know what he’s doing. We’d like to know what he was smoking when he negotiated this deal. In China, they’re laughing at us.

Frederica Freyberg:

Two candidates not specifically asked about Foxconn, Kathleen Vinehout and Mike McCabe, did raise their hands when asked to do so if they would kill or stop the Foxconn deal.

Before he takes on the eventual winner of the democratic primary, incumbent Governor Scott Walker faces a primary opponent of his own. Fellow republican Robert Meyer. Meyer was raised in eastern Iowa. He moved to Stevens Point in 1996. He’s operated a small business in Sun Prairie since 1999. And Robert Meyer joins us now. Thanks very much for being here.

Robert Meyer:

Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

You say you find the republican progressives, I’m assuming like Robert La Follette, inspiring. How so?

Robert Meyer:

I considered running as a Robert La Follette republican, but I decided his shoes were way too big to fill and progressivism ultimately belongs to everyone. If we’re going to work together– we have to work together in order to make progress. Wisconsin’s a great state. We have a great history. So many great accomplishments came out of the progressive era but that happened because people were working together. And I think that’s what voters want now for us to return to.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why do you describe the incumbent governor’s agenda as extreme?

Robert Meyer:

It’s been described as being based on the extreme radical libertarianism of James Buchanan’s economic or public choice theory economic, which I think is the only way to really describe some of the extreme things in his agenda; namely, the state preemptive laws, 100 new laws, which are antithetical to the republican values on local control. Also we’re a billion dollars behind in our investments in roads, in infrastructure and education. And those are assets that produce wealth over time. And if you look to the why, that’s the why.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, you talk about public choice theory economics. I don’t know what that is.

Robert Meyer:

James Buchanan was a Nobel prize-winning economist who Charles Koch funded when he was at George Mason University in order to advance this theory, which was based on, kind of short answer, concentrating political policy control so that it would favor the ultra-wealthy. And it really favored a tiny faction of libertarian extremists, such as the Koch brothers, the Scaife family, Olin Corporation, DeVos family, who just don’t believe in paying taxes. So it’s kind of strange that they’re so — because they don’t pay taxes really themselves, that they’re so focused on no one else paying taxes. So they don’t want people investing in elements of a common good that serve most of the people.

Frederica Freyberg:

Just briefly on this, why on your part throw in the time, attention and money on such a long-shot campaign?

Robert Meyer:

It’s kind of not. And that’s because we have social media today. And also this would have been a long shot four years ago, but we’ve seen the incumbent’s policies pretty much all instituted. So he’s not talking about the next four years. We know what he’s done. He’s riding on the coattails of the positive things going into the election year, but he doesn’t have an economic plan to overcome or to address the structural rural poverty that we have or the concentrated urban poverty and we’re now into a farm crisis. And so people I think are, if they become aware that there’s an alternative and a traditional moderate fiscally-conservative candidate, I think people– I think a lot of people are very concerned about how tenuous our economy is.

Frederica Freyberg:

What do you do on that yourself?

Robert Meyer:

We lead. We grow the economy in the ways it’s poised to grow. Again, there’s no plan. I’m the only candidate talking about these things. Three really concrete examples. Most people don’t know this but Wisconsin has the opportunity to become the leading tech producer state in the midwest and the venture capital companies on the coast are advocating for this. Which midwestern state is going to do this? We have all the strategic advantages. We’re a destination state. We’ve got the I-94 corridor. We have the service industry concentrated here, the airports and so on. And at the same time, Tom Hefty has been advocating for 30 years for everyone in these four I-94 counties to work together to build the economy. And then we need to become — and I think we can — the leading hemp-producing state in the entire country again. That will foster entrepreneurship because the hemp plant can be made into so many different things.

Frederica Freyberg:

I need to move on to education so we can focus on some of our issue areas. You said Wisconsin’s achievement gap must be better addressed. How do you do it?

Robert Meyer:

Again, through leadership. We have the worst achievement gaps in the United States. It’s because of the outcomes in Racine, Madison and Milwaukee. DPI organized an internal task force to look at practices that are working. But if we are in last place in the United States, we should be having an external task force. If you look at our National Assessment of Education progress scores, our mean average 4th grade African-American student score is 1.7 years behind, at 4th grade, behind Alabama and Mississippi. That’s a composite. And then our mean average white student — it’s not just kids living in poverty or children of color. Our mean average white student score is a year and a half behind New Jersey. So fundamentally there’s a structural problem in education that we’re not addressing, just like the governor is not addressing the structural challenges in the economy.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let me ask you about health care. I saw nothing about it in your materials on your website. In your mind, do you think Wisconsin needs to do something different or not?

Robert Meyer:

Absolutely. Eleven actual republican governors all accepted the full expansion of Medicaid. That’s added up to a billion dollars. Coincidentally we’re a billion dollars short on our investments in infrastructure and education. I think ultimately Congress needs to either modify or update, amend the Affordable Health Care Act or write a new bill. But in the meantime, we’ve left — I don’t know the number — thousands and thousands of adults and children who are slightly above the poverty line out of health care so that’s something that should have been done.

Frederica Freyberg:

We need to leave it there. Robert Meyer, thanks very much.

Robert Meyer:

Thank you very much.

Frederica Freyberg:

As we continue to follow up on statements made by candidates on our program, Marisa Wojcik brings us this report about college tuition.

Marisa Wojcik:

Inspired by his 8th grade son, democratic candidate for governor Mahlon Mitchell said his solution for affordable higher education would come in the form of community service hours that would buy down the price of college.

Mahlon Mitchell:

They’re going to help the veterans who served our country. They’re going to help at vet hospital. They’re going to help at the local soup kitchen, help at the homeless shelter. Once then once they meet a threshold of hours, then they’ll have earned tuition paid for by the state for a four-year program.

Marisa Wojcik:

Mitchells proposal, which he is calling the “Wisconsin Compact,” is based on the already-existing model called the “Tennessee Promise.” High school seniors can apply for the “Tennessee Promise” program which will provide two years of tuition-free attendance at a community or technical college. Students must complete eight hours of community service per semester, maintain a 2.0 grade point average and apply for federal financial assistance. Promise programs are popping up across the country. Many of these programs, such as the “Tennessee Promise” operate on what’s called a last-dollar basis, meaning they require students to receive funding from Pell grants and other aid before additional funding kicks in. Wisconsin does have nine technical colleges listed as last-dollar promise programs, but the financial aid gaps are made up almost entirely through private funding. Beginning this fall the University of Wisconsin-Madison will offer its own version of a last-dollar program, with “Buckys Tuition Promise.” The program is directed at households making less than $56,000 a year. Eventually, this is expected to cost the university $3.3 million annually. But unlike Mitchells idea, Buckys promise is entirely funded through private gifts and without state dollars. In addition to applying for FAFSA, the “Tennessee Promise” and the “Wisconsin Compact” require the extra layer of volunteer work. But some are calling for FAFSA itself to be simplified, saying its complexity and lack of transparency make it harder to reach the students who need aid most. For these and other fast facts, visit wpt.org.

Frederica Freyberg:

This week in Madison, the city received a half million dollars to redevelop the site of the former Oscar Mayer plant. The money comes from the Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation and will be used to update old infrastructure at the site, ahead of future development. The plans for the site include mixing industrial and commercial uses for the space and splitting the large campus between multiple companies.

Next week, democratic primary candidate for governor Kathleen Vinehout will be here. And on Friday, August 3rd, we’ll have a one-hour “Here & Now” primary election special on the governor’s race. We’ll compare and contrast the candidates on the issues and give you up-to-the-minute news on and off the campaign trail. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

For more information on “Here & Now’s” 2018 election coverage, go to WisconsinVote.org.