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The following is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Zac Schultz:

A new leader for Wisconsin Republicans talks about where the party goes from here. A scarcity of public defenders and district attorneys is leading to a constitutional crisis and the resurrection of a plan to expand I-94 sees a backlash.

Good evening. I’m Zac Schultz, filling in for Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” newly elected Republican Party Chair Brian Schimming joins us. We hear from the candidates vying for the state Supreme Court. Nathan Denzin reports on the record shortage of state attorneys and a Milwaukee group explains their opposition to a highway expansion. It’s “Here & Now” for January 13th.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Zac Schultz:

The Republican Party of Wisconsin recently changed leadership again, with their fourth chairman in the last four years. The newest chairman is not new to the party. Brian Schimming has been heavily involved in GOP politics in Wisconsin for a long time and joins us now. Thanks for your time.

Brian Schimming:

Thanks for inviting me.

Zac Schultz:

The Democratic Party of Wisconsin has had stability in leadership and they’ve been a fundraising powerhouse. Has the turnover in the GOP affected election outcomes?

Brian Schimming:

Oh, I don’t think so. We don’t see any sense of that. We just re-elected Ron Johnson after they dropped $150 million of their money on him, and captured a few new Democrat seats in the Assembly, picked up a supermajority in the Senate, elected a new Republican for Congress so I’d say based on the dollar that we’re doing pretty well for ourselves. And some disappointments this year but I’ll certainly be spending some time raising money as well. Of course with the Republican National Convention coming to Milwaukee, which we’re very excited about, it will be great to have that much focus on Wisconsin.

Zac Schultz:

You were in Washington last week, speaking of our new congressperson. Kevin McCarthy had to give up a lot of power to win the gavel. Will that affect his ability to function? That’s what the scuttlebutt is. What do you see?

Brian Schimming:

I was there for three days last week. My sense of it is no, I think they got some concessions in kind of the back and forth of the leadership elections there. But look, the play book for that was set by the Democrats. Nancy Pelosi, the last two times, had to struggle to get the votes to get elected speaker. Made a number of concessions to the AOC wing of the party, and it showed. And it finally got to the point where she left. So I’m not worried about that, and in the actions that they’ve taken since Kevin McCarthy was selected speaker, there’s unity. A lot of it.

Zac Schultz:

In Wisconsin, the governor and Republicans in the legislature are trying to meet and build up some trust that’s been lacking. What does compromise look like in this environment, especially from a Republican base point of view?

Brian Schimming:

With the legislature overwhelmingly Republican, governor’s office obviously in Democrat hands. I worked there, as you know, for a number of years as chief of staff to the speaker and other positions there. The governor needs to come a ways. I think Republicans are willing to compromise with the governor on some issues, not on principle but on some big legislative items. I think they’re willing to compromise with him but it’s going to take the governor coming in too. The governor just flatly refused to meet with the legislative Republicans several times, most of the time, during the last four years. I hope the governor now realizes that the Republicans are here to stay in the legislature. They can get some things done. I hope they do.

Zac Schultz:

We just saw Republicans introduce a new flat tax proposal but they did it as a standalone bill, which obviously if it’s passed, it can be vetoed by the governor. Does that mean it’s more of a statement of values to put it that way instead of trying to put it in the budget or do you think it will still go into the budget as a flat tax?

Brian Schimming:

I think some type of tax reform will probably end up going into the budget. That will be dependent on the governor. The flat tax is one proposal. There will be others I’m sure both in the Senate and the Assembly. So there will be different ideas out there. I trust our legislators to get that right. But it will take the governor saying look, I’m willing to look at what has historically been a high tax state and figure out ways to make it more affordable for everyone watching this program and the 6 million people in this state. So I hope the governor comes to the table and works productively on it.

Zac Schultz:

So if the budget is passed, is that a win? Keeping the governor from vetoing it entirely, is that a win?

Brian Schimming:

Well remember, the last budget, the Republicans passed it over months of objections by the governor, then he ended up signing it. So I’m not sure what’s in the governor’s mind right now, but we’ll see. I’ve been through a number of budgets as you have, watching it and participating up in the Capitol. A lot of money sloshing around. I kind of always say to Republicans in the legislature, if there’s too much money in Madison, get it out of here. And so I hope that’s their emphasis, is figuring out ways to give money back to taxpayers, because it’s their money.

Zac Schultz:

Robert Spindell, a Republican appointee to the Wisconsin Elections Commission, recently sent an email that’s gotten some attention. Urban Milwaukee quotes Spindell as writing this great and important decrease in Democrat votes in the city of Milwaukee was due to a well thought out multifaceted plan. Democrats are saying that’s voter suppression.

Brian Schimming:

I tell you what the multifaceted plan is, and that is the Republican Party of Wisconsin and the Republican National Committee opening offices on the north side and predominantly African-American neighborhoods, and on the south side, in prominently Latino neighborhoods, staffing them with paid staff, with volunteers. We’ve been as active in Milwaukee, and I’ve been on the board with Bob Spindell for a lot of years. He’s been the chief proponent of increased activity in Milwaukee in the minority communities. So perhaps the statements weren’t as artfully put as they could be, but I don’t doubt that he means that — what we all mean as a party and I certainly mean as the party leader, and that is that we are going to continue to work those neighborhoods and other neighborhoods in Milwaukee. I have an office in Milwaukee for years. We’re going to continue to work those neighborhoods and frankly we up ticked a little bit. Republicans did generally in Milwaukee, and that’s going to continue and frankly I want to highlight Milwaukee as the Republican National Convention comes to town. So in fact, I’ve been meeting on this in the last couple days. I was in Milwaukee the last couple of days. So we’re going to continue our outreach efforts in Milwaukee, and I’m not going to get distracted by those kind of stories.

Zac Schultz:

There is a very important Supreme Court election coming up, two liberals, two conservatives running. Do you anticipate the party getting involved in the primary?

Brian Schimming:

No, I can’t imagine a situation in which we get involved in the primary in the Supreme Court race. Of course the primary coming on Tuesday, February 21st. I think our role as the party and my role as the party chairman statewide is to make sure, past that primary, that one of the conservatives that we hope will get through — every moderate to conservative voter in this state ought to know about the differences between the conservatives in this race and the liberals in this race, and they are, in fact, very, very liberal. We saw that in the debate that happened this past week, where they were commenting on cases that had been before the court or may be before the court again. That is — number one, that’s flat out inappropriate for them to be commenting on those case, the liberals. So that’s number one. But number two, I want to make sure that folks, center right folks all across the state understand the differences between the two candidates and that’s a role we’ll help play.

Zac Schultz:

We’ve got about a minute left here. In past Supreme Court elections, it’s rare to see two conservative candidates go head to head. Is there a concern that they may up each other’s negatives by some of the sniping that’s going back and forth between them and their opponents and their supporters?

Brian Schimming:

Right. There’s probably as much concern on the liberal side because they’re having quite a shootout on their side as well, kind of a Milwaukee-based candidate versus a Madison-based candidate. So I don’t get a lot of that concern out there yet. There may be as we go along. We’re a ways out from the primary yet, but I suspect the liberals are starting to cut at each other a little bit as well. So we’ll see what happens. But we’ll be unified after February 21st, that I can tell you.

Zac Schultz:

All right. Brian Schimming, thanks for your time.

Brian Schimming:

Thanks for inviting me.

Zac Schultz:

The primary for the Wisconsin Supreme Court election is February 21st. In the coming weeks, PBS Wisconsin will be sitting down with the candidates and bringing you in-depth interviews. Earlier this week, the candidates appeared at a forum in Madison. Introducing themselves to voters and giving you a sense of who they would be as a justice.

Everett Mitchell:

For too long, partisanship has separated us so that we’re not able to have the representation that Wisconsin people need. And as judge, since 2016, I’ve learned that justice is not just what you say, justice is what you do. And I believe that we need a justice that can represent what that means for our state. I’ve worked hard as a judge to be tough, but fair. I’ve worked hard to be proactive in our community rather than reactive.

Janet Protasiewicz:

I got into this race to bring change and common sense back to our Supreme Court. I started thinking about it last spring. I could not sit back and watch extreme right wing partisans hijack our Supreme Court. And that is why I got into this race: change and common sense.

Jennifer Dorow:

I’m running for the Supreme Court because the people of this great state of Wisconsin need and deserve a justice who will uphold the rule of law, protect our constitutional rights, and not inject their political bias by legislating from the bench. I have a depth and a breadth of experience, unlike any other candidate, and an unwavering commitment to a fair and impartial judiciary.

Daniel Kelly:

What I’ve heard a fair amount this afternoon is my opponents talking about their values and what they think that the law ought to do. That is the step towards the combination of the power of the judiciary and the legislature. That is a step we cannot take.

Zac Schultz:

Wisconsin is facing a shortage in the courtroom as state offices are having a difficult time recruiting lawyers for both the prosecution and defense. “Here & Now” reporter Nathan Denzin has the story.

Judge:

Set cash bail in the amount of $2,000.

Judge Dutcher:

It’s really a problem that has reached a constitutional crisis from both perspectives.

Nathan Denzin:

State officials are warning of potential miscarriages of justice as Wisconsin faces a shortage of both public defenders and prosecutors.

Kurt Klomberg:

If you go to some of these counties like Waushara County or Shawano, it’s anywhere from 50% of their prosecution staff that are vacant. In one county right now, it’s 100% prosecution staff vacancy.

Nathan Denzin:

Kurt Klomberg is the district attorney for Dodge County, where he says staff shortages have been exacerbated by a lack of quality candidates.

Kurt Klomberg:

We’re getting very minimal numbers of applicants.

Nathan Denzin:

On the other side of the courtroom, state public defender Kelli Thompson says her office also has staffing issues.

Kelli Thompson:

The simple answer is we need more attorneys. We need more attorneys on staff and we need more attorneys in the private bar for those conflict and overflow cases. So right now we have a shortage just in recruitment.

Nathan Denzin:

Both prosecutors and defenders say the largest gap in recruitment falls in rural counties where open positions are not attracting attorneys.

Judge Dutcher:

We currently are a county that has two courts, two judges. We have a single prosecutor, the elected district attorney, and two vacant full time prosecutors positions.

Nathan Denzin:

Judge Dutcher presides over a courtroom in rural Waushara County that has seen attorney shortages increase steadily for about 10 years.

Judge Dutcher:

Where smaller counties were having difficulty finding attorneys to take cases. At times having to go three or four counties removed to find public defender appointments or public defender availability for people who have a constitutional right to representation.

Nathan Denzin:

Statewide, a murder case took about 15 months to be resolved in 2021. In rural Dodge County, it took about two years.

Kurt Klomberg:

Now we’re having these delays that go on longer and that really hurts victims. It also hurts defendants.

Nathan Denzin:

Since 2003, overall wait times before a decision is reached in felony cases has increased by 85%. And wait times for misdemeanor cases have increased by 110%.

Kelli Thompson:

The strain is significant. The human impact, the emotional, the mental health part of this is significant. I mean, to get those calls from your client to go see your client and to know that they’re struggling because they don’t have information or their case isn’t moving forward or they don’t know what’s going on.

Nathan Denzin:

The main cause of the shortage? A salary that starts low and doesn’t increase very fast. Most qualified attorneys don’t want state defender or prosecutor jobs because they can earn more at private firms.

Kelli Thompson:

Public defenders’ pay is too low, and so we need to boost that up because quite frankly, it’s hard to keep them when we can’t pay them enough to, you know, buy a home, raise their family, pay their student loans.

Nathan Denzin:

State attorney jobs start at about $55,000 per year, while private sector jobs typically start near $80,000 per year.

Kurt Klomberg:

When you’re looking at simply saying, I can make $25,000 more per year as a starting salary to simply go and do that as opposed to becoming a state prosecutor, there’s a business decision there.

Nathan Denzin:

On top of lower pay, prosecutors and public defenders often have massive caseloads. Klomberg says it isn’t unusual for a prosecutor to juggle 200 to 300 cases at a time.

Kurt Klomberg:

You’re always trying to catch up. And so that also makes the job less attractive.

Nathan Denzin:

While hiring has been a problem for both offices, retention has also become an issue. This chart shows the number of years prosecutors have spent actually prosecuting cases. Most fall between 1 and 8 years of experience, while a far smaller number have more than 10 years’ experience.

Judge Dutcher:

When I came through the ranks as a young prosecutor, there were literally dozens of very seasoned, experienced career prosecutors. I think you see less and less people choosing prosecution as a career.

Nathan Denzin:

A lack of experience can cause mistakes in the courtroom that can’t be fixed.

Kurt Klomberg:

This is also a job where we really don’t get a lot of second chances. If you make a mistake, it’s pretty much final.

Nathan Denzin:

In order to make state attorney positions more attractive to potential candidates, both the state public defender’s office and many district attorneys are petitioning the state government for a higher starting salary.

Kurt Klomberg:

The state prosecutor’s office did a study recently, and the Wisconsin DAs Association, which I’m the past president of, is promoting a salary point in the mid-70s.

Nathan Denzin:

Klomberg says a $70,000 starting salary would likely boost the number of prosecutors to acceptable levels. On the defender’s side, the state legislature has been asked to increase pay for private bar attorneys from $70 per hour to $125 per hour for in-court work and $100 per hour for out of court work.

Kelli Thompson:

We need to either be at that or above that so that we can continue to take that burden off of the county.

Nathan Denzin:

While increased starting salaries would have an impact in the long term, Klomberg and Thompson say federal funds should be used to temporarily raise salaries.

Kurt Klomberg:

There is a limited amount of funds that are available right now because of the ARPA money that has been made available, but for the most part, it has to be only in extreme situations.

Nathan Denzin:

As the state legislature is set to meet and decide Wisconsin’s next budget, funding for the justice system will be at the top of attorneys’ minds.

Judge Dutcher:

There’s an expression that often gets used, that justice delayed is justice denied, and that applies, frankly, to everyone who’s involved with this type of circumstance.

Nathan Denzin:

For “Here & Now,” I’m Nathan Denzin.

Zac Schultz:

Since we first spoke with Kurt Klomberg, he resigned as the Dodge County district attorney. Klomberg sent an email to colleagues announcing he was stepping down as of January 13th and heartbroken over the collapse of the Dodge County prosecutor’s office. After retirements, resignations and no new full-time attorneys accepting positions.

Kurt Klomberg:

That left me alone to do the work of six attorneys after February 1st, and my family has made many, many sacrifices for me to do this work when we were fully staffed. I was leaving before my children would barely get up in the morning and I was coming home after they went to bed and I saw no end in sight. I was concerned about my own health. And also the fact that I can’t do that amount of work without committing serious malpractice, and I just faced the reality that I had to look for other employment. I’m going to still be a prosecutor, and I’m going to an office that is smaller, is well-staffed, and I’m going to be able to continue to practice law and do this work. I just — I just can’t do it here.

Zac Schultz:

Governor Evers made another appointment to the DNR board this week, selecting Paul Buhr, a dairy farmer from Viroqua. He will replace Bill Bruins, an appointee of Scott Walker. Evers’ appointees will now control the board 5-2 and with the seats vacant, the appointees can serve while they await Senate confirmation.

The next billion-dollar road construction project in Milwaukee is moving forward. But there’s still time for the public to provide input to the state and opponents are hoping to change the plan. The Wisconsin Department of Transportation announced last fall their plan to expand the Interstate 94 corridor to eight lanes. That stretch runs from West Allis past American Family Field towards the downtown. The state has studied expansion for the last decade, but former governor Scott Walker killed off the project in 2016, then Governor Tony Evers revived it. That has angered a coalition of groups who oppose expansion and would prefer to see the road stay at six lanes. Joining us now is a member of one of those opposition groups, Reverend Dr. Richard Shaw, president of Milwaukee Inner City Congregations Allied for Hope. Thanks for your time today.

Richard Shaw:

Thank you.

Zac Schultz:

Now what is the main opposition that your group has to expanding that stretch of road to eight lanes?

Richard Shaw:

The — I would say the primary opposition would be ignoring the public transit issues that we have whereas some of that funding or a good bit of it would better benefit or benefit the residents of Milwaukee in terms of helping them get from neighborhood to neighborhood, putting those funds into that stretch from 27th to National. We’re also concerned about the environment. You’re talking about expanding to eight lanes, which will increase emissions, it will also increase salt and contaminate the land, so there are various things but for the most part, it does not benefit the residents of Milwaukee as much as it would those who live in the suburban areas, who are — who aim to get downtown to work and for entertainment. So those funds could just be better spent.

Zac Schultz:

Now, Milwaukee’s interstate system is deeply rooted in white flight from the city to the suburbs with the original highways often bulldozing Black neighborhoods. Do you see this project as a continuation of that history, of who it serves?

Richard Shaw:

Yes, yes, definitely. It’s serving those who live in the suburbs as well as the exurbs to be able to, again, get into Milwaukee and to, you know, enjoy downtown. When we disrupt neighborhoods that are already poor and those that are already facing challenges, it actually makes it harder on everyone. And so when we talk about trying to provide means for people to get to work and to get to different neighborhoods, again, those funds could be better invested in improving the transit system in Milwaukee, and so yes, it is not directly impacting in a positive way or a positive impact at all for people of color living in Milwaukee.

Zac Schultz:

Now the Department of Transportation studied a proposal to re-do that section of interstate, but to keep it at six lanes as your coalition had asked for but they determined it would have about the same cost and not provide any long-term upgrades for safety or efficiency. How do you respond to that?

Richard Shaw:

Again, it’s not just about cost. It is about what it will do to the environment as well. And from my understanding, still trying to keep that in there is not allowing adequate funds to benefit the people who live in Milwaukee and in that route.

Zac Schultz:

Now, the Department of Transportation plan does allow for $25 million to go towards upgraded transit for the construction period to help people that are impacted by that. That’s opposed to a $1.2 billion cost. If there was more money in that plan for transit, would this become more acceptable?

Richard Shaw:

You know, a temporary solution is not going to work. Yes, those funds will temporarily help the transit system, but it’s not a permanent fix. And what good is to invest this money in something that is temporary when we can do something that can make a permanent impact on the residents of Milwaukee, especially those who will be impacted directly by this construction.

Zac Schultz:

How do you feel that it was Governor Evers and his administration that gave this expansion the green light when the project was dead?

Richard Shaw:

Well, whether it was Governor Evers or any past governor, we have to advocate for those who are impacted negatively. It doesn’t matter what side of the political fence that they’re on. And so I would hope that Governor Evers would actually take a stance on this or do more, speak out on it and support this effort of “Fix at Six,” because again, this directly negatively impacts the residents of Milwaukee, especially those who are along that route.

Zac Schultz:

And the proposal that you would like to see, the so-called “Fix at Six,” still upgrades the interstate so it’s not leaving it in its current state, it’s just the expansion that’s the primary opposition here?

Richard Shaw:

Yes. And my group supports this because just bringing the highways up to standard, making the necessary repairs will still bring jobs. It will still allow persons to travel. I’ve lived in Atlanta. I’ve lived in Chicago. And I’ve experienced the eight lanes. And so all of them become parking lots. So expanding to eight lanes will not benefit transportation to and fro, Milwaukee to the suburbs. But yes, we believe that it can be done with the six lanes, just invest the money, put it into that, create other things that can benefit Milwaukee residents.

Zac Schultz:

Just a couple seconds left. What do you want the public to say during this open comment period?

Richard Shaw:

I want us to say but also think, think about humanity and people. I know that it looks good from the outside. It gives the impression of advancement for a city, but at the end of the day, the marginalized who are speaking but they’re not being heard. Those who are saying, listen, we need transportation, safe transportation within our neighborhoods And so this is what I would encourage people to speak out on. Not necessarily your convenience to get again from the suburbs to downtown but consider humanity and consider the least of these.

Zac Schultz:

All right, Reverend Dr. Richard Shaw, thanks for your time today.

Richard Shaw:

Thank you for having me.

Zac Schultz:

For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSwisconsin.org and click on the news tab. That is our program for tonight. Frederica Freyberg will be back next week. I’m Zac Schultz. Have a great weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.