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The following program is part of our “Here and Now” 2018 Wisconsin Vote election coverage.

Frederica Freyberg:

I'm Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here and Now,” U.S. Senator Ron Johnson on the blow-up over immigration reform. Elections Commission leader Michael Haas is here. Two more dem candidates in the governor’s race and they’re both here, Paul Soglin and Kelda Roys. It’s “Here and Now” for January 12.

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Funding for “Here and Now” is provided in part by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

Frederica Freyberg:

In our first look tonight, an interview with Wisconsin U.S. Senator Ron Johnson. He’s here as fallout from a contentious oval office meeting over an immigration fix, including protection for dreamers, continues to spread. The president rescinded the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals last year, but has said he’d be willing to reinstate the program in return for border wall funding. In the midst of a bipartisan meeting of senators with the president on DACA, the president reportedly made incendiary comments over a plan to reinstate temporary protected status programs for El Salvador, Haiti and some African nations, reportedly asking why are we having all these people from bleephole countries come here? Senator Johnson was not among those in the meeting but he too is looking for an immigration fix. He joins us now. Senator, thanks very much for being here.

Ron Johnson:

Happy new year.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your response to President Trump’s reported comments about the U.S. taking immigrants from bleephole countries referring to some in Africa and others?

Ron Johnson:

Totally inappropriate and he should apologize. When you enter the public realm, I don’t care what your past was, I don’t care what kind of salty language you might have used, you stop doing it. You have a certain responsibility, a certain decorum you need to conduct yourself in public with. You have children watching. You have nations watching. Totally inappropriate, very unfortunate. Because a couple days before that, I think the president showed himself in really a good light with a bipartisan group of senators and house members really trying to find areas of agreement. I hope people take a look at that extended video of that almost cabinet-like meeting, where he did show himself in command. He showed himself listening and you can really see exactly how the process works. You have a principal in charge of the meeting, then you have members of congress. You all get about maybe a minute to make a comment. But you saw an attempt try and find areas of agreement, which is how you actually accomplish things.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let's just back to the other for a moment. You call it unfortunate, but do you condemn it?

Ron Johnson:

Yes. And, again, the best thing he can do is admit it, apologize it and move on. Truthfully, it’s going to be helpful to have the president involved in this, but this is Congress’s responsibility. We have got to pass legislation to fix the dreamer problem, but also to fix our broken legal immigration system as well. I think we have a great opportunity. I think the vast majority of Americans, I think the vast majority of members of congress want to fix the dreamer issue, but also want to secure our border, want to have a legal immigration system that makes sense, where we can start limiting the abuse of chain migration, the diversity lottery that through the combination our last two terrorist attacks have been perpetrated by people who came to this country in some way shape or form that way. So again, there’s common sense approaches I think the American people would support. We need to get back on that and pass the legislation.

Frederica Freyberg:

How does all of what’s blowing up right now affect the possible passage of any of that?

Ron Johnson:

It shouldn’t affect it at all because what President Obama–er, President Trump said a couple days ago was he will sign what we put on his desk. It’s incumbent upon us, senators, house members to come up to that agreement. We’re going to have to hash it out between ourselves.

Frederica Freyberg:

There was an agreement, a bipartisan agreement that was presented to him, and this was the result.

Ron Johnson:

But again, that was with a small group. You know, this was the exact same thing in 2013. I was totally supportive of what the Gang of Eight was doing, but my counsel to them at that same time was work with the House, get the House to pass immigration reform first because in this case it was the higher hurdle. You kind of have to — when you’re looking at a piece of legislation, where’s the choke point? What is the higher hurdle? In this case I think it’s going to be the House. So let’s be working with our house colleagues. There’s another effort with John Cornyn and Steny Hoyer and Dick Durbin, trying to think of the other person involved. But there’s about four of them that are also working. I’m trying to work with all the groups quite honestly. I’m Chairman of Homeland Security, certainly involved in border security issues, as well as the immigration laws as well. So this is a strong attempt by a number of members of Congress including myself to get this thing actually accomplished.

Frederica Freyberg:

I heard Dick Durbin say this morning that he would take this package that was presented in the Oval Office and introduce it in the Senate. How would you vote on that?

Ron Johnson:

I still don’t know the details of their specific package. I think an awful lot of the elements are quite good in there. To a certain extent addresses some of the chain migration issues. But I want to see the details because it is — the devils really are in the details of this. But from my standpoint, we have got to start closing the loopholes created by bad law, bad legal precedent that incentivize people to come to this country illegally. We have to limit chain migration to a common sense level. Right now Frederica, we let about 1.1 million people in this country legally in terms of permanent, legal residence every year. 65% of that is some kind of chain migration. 22% is diversity lottery. Asylum refugees. Only about 14%, 15% has anything to do with work. That is a crazy system, when you have literally millions, probably hundreds of millions of people want to come to this country. We can’t assimilate all those people. We’ve got to limit. We’ve got to limit it on a merit-based system. We’ve got to fix our system.

Frederica Freyberg:

What's regarded or called chain migration is not allowing citizenship based on being sponsored by one’s children. I heard Dick Durbin say that that language, chain migration, is super offensive because it hearkens back to —

Ron Johnson:

It's what people use. It’s not meant to be offensive. It’s just describing something that allows an immigrant to allow in their parents, their children. But what ends up happening is it does chain, where those people then can bring in their children, their parents. All of a sudden one individual and you’ve got cousins and adult children, adult siblings. That’s what we need to limit to something that just makes common sense.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to just go back one more time to the president and his comments and ask you whether or not you believe that those were racist utterances on his part?

Ron Johnson:

I don’t want to put labels on things. It’s just completely inappropriate and he should apologize for it.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. I know that you have worked a lot on the opioid problem, and the president this week, just yesterday or Wednesday —

Ron Johnson:

I was in the signing ceremony.

Frederica Freyberg:

That's right. Didn’t the president there say something about how he has the answer to fix this problem?

Ron Johnson:

I don’t know what he was talking about there. But again there’s a good example of a very bipartisan effort, finding an area of agreement. We all agreed that this opioid problem is a huge problem. This particular bill, INTERDICT Act, authorized and then funded detection devices for fentanyl, which is really becoming dangerous. President Trump before he signed it, allowed every member of Congress in there, I think at least four or five Democrat Senators, Democrat House members, Republicans there, all asked us to make comment. And it really was a very good example of how you accomplish things like you do in the business world. You tenaciously pursue areas of agreement. The problem in politics all too often people exploit areas of division. I’m trying to find those areas of agreement.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We need to leave it there. Senator Ron Johnson, thanks very much.

Ron Johnson:

Have a good day.

Frederica Freyberg:

And Democratic U.S. Senator Tammy Baldwin tweeted this out this afternoon, “The President’s comments from the Oval Office are sickening, hateful and divisive. He should take responsibility for them. In our closer look tonight, an interview with a state official who accuses Wisconsin's Republican leaders of slander and wants them to, “Stop trashing his name and reputation.” Here’s the background. Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald and Assembly Speaker Robin Vos say they’ve lost confidence in the directors of the state Elections and Ethics Commission because of partisan influences when they worked for the former Government Accountability Board. This follows a scathing report from the state Attorney General over how the GAB handled the now-closed John Doe investigation into Governor Scott Walker’s campaign. The AG described the GAB as, “weaponized by partisans in furtherance of political goals.” The Republican leaders call for the Ethics and Elections Commission administrators to step down and if they do not, Senator Fitzgerald has set a January 23rd Senate vote to reject their confirmation. Fitzgerald says he won’t hold a public confirmation hearing and adds, “It has become abundantly clear to me that as appointees, Administrators Michael Haas and Brian Bell will never receive the votes necessary for Senate confirmation, which has been the case throughout their tenures. Any leftover remnants of the partisan GAB will never have the confidence of the public to ensure complete, non-partisanship in the administration of elections or the oversight of government ethics.” For his part, the chairman of the bipartisan Elections Commission this week called Senator Fitzgerald a bully and a coward. This is tough stuff. And Elections Commission Administrator Michael Haas is in the middle of it. Thanks for being here.

Michael Haas:

Thank you. Good to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

How have Republican leaders slandered you?

Michael Haas:

Well, I’m an attorney. I know what it means when somebody says that there’s potential criminal activity. And what was said was that there was not confidence in our agency or me as an administrator and that there should not be people leading the agencies who — I think the phrase was who are candidates for criminal charges or something to that effect, implying that I had something to do with some type of criminal activity within the state agency. That’s just offensive. That’s ridiculous. It’s completely false. And I think it’s beneath an elected official to make allegations like that.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you deny their allegations about the Government Accountability Board and indeed yourself being partisan?

Michael Haas:

Absolutely. Unless people looked at the evidence in the investigations that the Government Accountability Board reviewed and its investigators reviewed, they don’t have any idea of what the judges on the board looked at when the judges authorized preliminary investigations. And beyond that, my focus has been on administrating elections. I was first staff attorney, but then elections division administrator since 2013. It’s been a focus on administering the laws that the legislature passes, whether it’s photo ID or any other election-related law. And nobody can point to any decision or action of myself or the GAB or the current Elections Commission that’s been based on partisan motives.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what is your reaction to being told to resign?

Michael Haas:

Well, I answer to our commission. Our commission’s made up of three Republicans, three Democrats. They’ve unanimously supported me. They unanimously appointed me. And recently have reaffirmed that and asked for a public hearing. Senator Fitzgerald, Speaker Vos and many other Republicans told me that they supported my appointment when I was first appointed in 2016. So I don’t think it’s true that the votes were never there. And I'm confident that there is support amongst the Senate for my confirmation.

Frederica Freyberg:

And what is your response to apparently not getting a public hearing?

Michael Haas:

Well, it’s frustrating. I think it’s unusual. I mean, we have a little bit of a unique appointment structure because it’s not a gubernatorial appointment. It’s by the commission. And then advice and consent to the Senate. I think there would be two positive things to come out of a public hearing. Both myself, commissioners and the public could let the Senate know what they think of the direction of the agency and senators, if they have concerns, they can have their questions answered. I’ve been told that there’s a lack of confidence amongst the public. We would know if that were the case. We would be getting phone calls and emails. That’s not the case. I’ve asked legislators if your constituents have concerns, let me help you answer their concerns. Nobody has offered up any specific concern of any member of the public that we could address.

Frederica Freyberg:

I should add here that we did ask Senator Fitzgerald to join this conversation and he declined that. What remedy do you have if your confirmation is rejected?

Michael Haas:

Well, I think that’s a little bit of uncharted territory. Right now we’re focusing on making the case to the Senate that my confirmation should be–my appointment should be confirmed. So if the vote is not to confirm, then I think we will try to deal with those issues at the time.

Frederica Freyberg:

You know, given the fact that the Government Accountability Board was disbanded in 2015 and neither you nor Mr. Bell have yet been confirmed, I mean, did that spell some trouble?

Michael Haas:

Well, not for me, because I was checking in with Senator Fitzgerald's office regularly. I would say, are there any concerns? Are there any Senators you think I should talk to? I was always told, no, we think everything’s fine. We’ll let you know. So I was surprised to get a letter, frankly, requesting my resignation.

Frederica Freyberg:

What do you think happened?

Michael Haas:

Apparently there was a caucus amongst the Senate Republicans ironically on the same day that Senator Fitzgerald's staff said they were scheduling a meeting for me with Senator Fitzgerald. They said they’d be happy to set up a meeting the following week. That was after Senator Nass had asked for our resignations. But since that time, they’re frankly just not answering my phone calls.

Frederica Freyberg:

Michael Haas, thanks very much.

Michael Haas:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

The list of Democratic candidates lining up to challenge Governor Scott Walker is long and getting longer. We’ve been interviewing the many candidates over the past several weeks. As the calendar turned to the new year we’re doubling up. In tonight's inside look, we bring you two Democratic challengers who this month threw their hat in the ring. We start with Kelda Roys. Roys is an attorney and the former executive director of NARAL Pro-choice Wisconsin. She served in the state Assembly from 2008 to 2012 and currently runs a real estate tech business. Kelda Roys joins us now. Thanks for being here.

Kelda Roys:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

We first want to ask you what sets you apart from the many other Democrats wanting to go head to head with Scott Walker?

Kelda Roys:

Well, I think it’s great we have so much enthusiasm on our side and so many great people stepping forward to run. I don’t view myself as running against my Democratic colleagues. I don’t really even feel like I'm running against Scott Walker. I’m running for governor because I want Wisconsin to be a place of opportunity and fairness again. I want Wisconsin to be the best place to raise a family and the best place to grow a small business. I have a lot of energy and ideas that I’m looking forward to bringing to the campaign trail and to the governorship.

Frederica Freyberg:

How did your past experience prepare you for this role?

Kelda Roys:

I've had a long history of progressive accomplishments on a wide range of legislative issues. Certainly from my time in the legislature and as a legislative leader but also even before that as a law student working on the Innocence Project to prevent wrongful convictions. When I was the head of NARAL Pro-choice Wisconsin working on common ground, common sense initiatives to help reduce the need for abortion, help women who have been victims of sexual assault, et cetera.

Frederica Freyberg:

On the issues, what's the most important thing in your mind that Wisconsin needs to do for its education system?

Kelda Roys:

Well, we need to prioritize it in the budget. You simply cannot say that you value education if you devalue educators and if you take money away from schools. Under the current governor, we have divested about a billion dollars from our K-12 education system. I think that’s absolutely wrong. I say that as a parent, someone who is a product of public schools, and as an employer, who knows that the way that we’re going to be successful now and in the future is by having educated workers.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so on that score, what’s the best way to grow good-paying jobs in Wisconsin?

Kelda Roys:

Well, the majority of net new jobs come from small businesses. They come from start-ups and new firms, companies like mine. So if we’re going to have a sustainable economy with good-paying jobs, we need to make sure that people can start small businesses and that small businesses can grow. Right now we have a situation where the biggest businesses that already have billions of dollars in capital are getting massive incentives and tax breaks. And all the rest of us are paying the price for that. And small businesses do, too. I have a number of ideas for how we can help small businesses like mine succeed and I'm looking forward to talking about all those ideas on the campaign trail.

Frederica Freyberg:

We're talking about businesses, large and small. What’s your opinion of the Foxconn project?

Kelda Roys:

Well, Foxconn is — to me it’s clearly a desperate Hail Mary pass by the current governor. He knows his record on job creation and the economy is terrible. Wisconsin is doing worse than a lot of our peers. Our middle class is shrinking. And so I can understand why he was so eager to make that deal. But it was — you know, the idea that we are going to give now $4 billion and counting to this foreign corporation with very little security for us and only benefiting even one small part of the state, to me that’s not leadership. That’s desperation. I want to see home-grown innovators given a chance in all 72 counties in the state. And I want to make sure that we’re investing resources where they’re actually needed, in small businesses.

Frederica Freyberg:

How should Wisconsin in your mind create a sustainable funding source for Wisconsin's roads and highways?

Kelda Roys:

Well, this is an area where I think we have great potential for bipartisan cooperation. Roads and transit and transportation infrastructure generally are absolutely essential for a strong and growing economy and I think there’s a lot of agreement amongst Republicans in the legislature as well as Democrats. So I would like to see us exploring a lot of different revenue sources. I mean, certainly I think looking at being willing to look at revenue sources like the gas tax are important, but we also need to think in longer terms because as people move more towards more efficient vehicles or electric-powered vehicles, the gas tax is not going to be sustainable for instance, as my children grow up.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why do you think you could unseat Scott Walker?

Kelda Roys:

I think that Governor Walker has had eight years to do what he wants in Wisconsin. He’s had a very compliant legislature. And a lot of us have been really disappointed by the outcomes. Wisconsin is ready for new leadership. We’re ready for someone who is willing to say I'm not going to put my big donors first, I'm not going to put the biggest corporations first. When I'm governor, I'm going to put every Wisconsinite first. I’m not going to leave anybody behind. We’re going to make sure the economy works for all of us.

Frederica Freyberg:

Kelda Roys, thanks very much.

Kelda Roys:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

This week Madison mayor Paul Soglin became the latest Democratic candidate to announce his run for governor. Soglin has served 20 years as Madison's mayor over three different stints of time, starting with his first term in 1973. Soglin is an attorney and former fellow at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. Mayor Soglin joins us now. Thanks for being here.

Paul Soglin:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

What sets you apart from the other candidates?

Paul Soglin:

Probably the fact that I've got 25 years experience in the private sector, owning my own successful businesses, and time at one of the largest technology companies not just in Wisconsin, but the U.S., where I held an important administrative position, and over 20 as mayor of the city of Madison. So I've had the opportunity both in the public and the private sector to work on difficult, challenging problems and get solutions. Identify a need for housing and then putting a program that gets us thousands of units of new housing built at all income levels, look at the challenges that we see in regards to communication and transportation and build those kinds of networks and bring them in within budget.

Frederica Freyberg:

Right out of the chutes, the Scott Walker campaign came out against you tweeting, “The last thing we need is more Madison in our lives. Paul Soglin is the latest extreme liberal who wants to take our state backward.” What’s your reaction to that?

Paul Soglin:

Basically he’s ungrateful and deceitful. Let’s just take the employment numbers, whether we measure them by unemployment, we measure them by job creation. Wisconsin needs Madison. Madison needs Wisconsin. The city of Madison and the Dane County region have created more jobs. We are the ones that are leading in unemployment. We are making Scott Walker look good. And it’s about time he acknowledged what limited success he’s had comes from our region. At the same time, no one expects Mineral Point, Rice Lake, Green Bay to become like Madison. But we’ve all got common problems, common problems in terms of transportation, in terms of schools, in terms of solving the problems of the day.

Frederica Freyberg:

So how do you transposes the successes of Madison statewide, growing good-paying jobs, for example?

Paul Soglin:

Well, it’s making wise investment. I means working in conjunction with the private sector. Let me just say that a concept is fine. Each individual project has to be evaluated on its own. The decision on Foxconn is a disaster. The decision is too costly. It doesn’t give us enough protections as the public. The money could be more wisely spent on investment in small businesses and entrepreneurship around the rest of the state. The key to all of this is understanding that government is to provide health and safety and to work with the private sector in opening up opportunities.

Frederica Freyberg:

What's the best way, in your mind, to support Wisconsin's education system?

Paul Soglin:

Well, we do need more money, more revenues. We are going to have to put more into primary and secondary education. We’re going to have to make a greater commitment to the university system. You look at our towns, our villages, our communities, they are only as strong as their public schools. We can have a debate till the cows come home about whether or not we should have choice and voucher and all of that. We’ve all got our own different opinions. But no matter what your feeling is, there must be strong public schools.

Frederica Freyberg:

Where would you find a sustainable funding for Wisconsin's highways and roads?

Paul Soglin:

Well, we had an opportunity and we still do while gas prices are low to raise the gas tax. I mean, it’s just ludicrous that we don’t take a revenue stream like that, which is a modest increase, and then use it for further investment. Our road system was a response to the dairy industry. 100 years ago, we had to get fresh milk to market. And it meant investing in town and county roads. It meant investing in state highways. Those roads have now made a great economy for Wisconsin, from manufacturing to the tourist industry. We cannot turn our back on any county in the state and we have to understand, make that investment in those roads and then we will get a larger tax base, we will create more jobs and it’s wise. Monona Terrace is a perfect example of that kind of investment.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let me ask you this. Why do you think you can unseat Scott Walker?

Paul Soglin:

Well, when we had a discussion in March and April about the possibility of running for governor, I asked Sarah what she thought about it. And she simply said, you can run, but you have to win. Well, I went about raising some money to do a poll. And we did a poll. Paul Maslin did it, who recently successfully completed the Jones' Senate campaign in Alabama, and the poll says I can win.

Frederica Freyberg:

We leave it there. Paul Soglin, thanks very much.

Frederica Freyberg:

In tonight’s look ahead, state officials are on a mission. As we’ve reported, Wisconsin really, really wants millennials living and working in Chicago to leave there and come here. And this week, the Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation went live, with its million ad campaign in Chicago. Commuter trains, train platforms, health clubs and social media will see the marketing blitz about how it’s better here. How many millennials does Wisconsin want to bring into our borders? As many as they can get, according to the WEDC. Now this first marketing push is the precursor to a nearly $7 million campaign the state wants to pursue to remedy its worker shortage. State Democratic leaders say the money could be better spent on job training and say Governor Walker and his policies are to blame for driving young people out of the state. That is our program for tonight. Next week, we will be watching the state Senate election in the 10th district. Will it be a bellwether race? I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

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