Tony Evers:
It’s time for Wisconsin to join the more than 30 other states and the District of Columbia in legalizing medical marijuana and ensuring access to CBD oil in Wisconsin.
Frederica Freyberg:
Governor Tony Evers announces his plan to make Wisconsin the 34th state in the nation to legalize medical marijuana. A plan that would also decriminalize small amounts of the drug. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” we’ll hear from a Michigan state official about how legalized marijuana is going in that state. We’ll look at the impact of the governor’s plan to decriminalize possession of marijuana on the state’s incarceration rates. And we’ll hear from a state lawmaker who wants to put the brakes on the whole thing. It’s “Here & Now” for February 22.
Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.
Frederica Freyberg:
A first look tonight at the governor’s proposals regarding marijuana. Under the plan, which Evers says he will include in his budget, medical marijuana would be legalized in Wisconsin with a doctor’s recommendation and a state-issued ID card. Dispensaries of medical marijuana would be licensed by the state, with specific rules covering quality and location of where it could be sold, like not within 500 feet of a school. Additionally, people licensed to consume medical marijuana could grow up to 12 plants of their own and possess up to three ounces. There would be restrictions for operating a motor vehicle or heavy machinery and smoking marijuana would not be allowed in public places like a bus, school, park or youth center. The proposal would also allow possession of CBD oil without a physician’s certificate and it would decriminalize the possession, manufacture or distribution of marijuana for amounts of 25 grams or less. The plan would also establish an expungement procedure for people convicted for less than 25 grams who have completed their sentence.
So Wisconsin is looking at legalizing medical and decriminalizing recreational marijuana. Other states have already gone down this road. For example, Michigan, which legalized medical marijuana ten years ago and recreational just last year. To get a sense of how it’s working out in that state we go now to David Harns with the Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs. He joins us from Lansing. Thanks very much for being here.
David Harns:
Glad to be here.
Frederica Freyberg:
Overall, how would you describe Michigans journey toward legalization?
David Harns:
Well, it’s been — the medical side, like you mentioned, has been in place. It was voted on over ten years ago. And so the medical side has been going ups and downs, here and there over the last decade. But it’s really kind of came into its own in 2016, when the legislature put into place the Facilities Licensing Act. And so that really put some framework around the medical side, which was kind of — it wasn’t really organized as well as it is now in the first few years that it existed.
Frederica Freyberg:
So that took a while. But the legalization of recreational marijuana in Michigan is now on the books. But is it still true under this fledgling law that you can’t buy it or sell it?
David Harns:
Well, so you will be able to buy it and sell it, but the licensing process is still underway. And so we face a deadline of December of 2019 in order to have business applications available so that businesses can set up shop and sell the — adult use is what we call it here, adult use marijuana. The medicinal stuff is for sale right now and we expect that they will kind of come together at some point.
Frederica Freyberg:
So at this point, before it kind of comes together in that way, how does someone who wants to possess the adult possession of marijuana get it?
David Harns:
Sure. So you’re allowed — basically you’re allowed to possess it yourself. You can grow it yourself. And you can gift it to your friends. You can hand it to somebody else. But there is no process right now for selling it.
Frederica Freyberg:
How complicated is it to roll out this new law?
David Harns:
Well, it’s complicated in the fact that it’s a piece of legislation that was written by the voters, really, and passed by the voters. And so there are, you know, holes that need to be filled in with administrative rules and there are things that need to be looked at because they don’t necessarily, you know, work with the things that currently are in place. And so you just have to take a look at the law as it was written and as it was passed and you have to just basically just figure out how to make it work the best. And that’s why we’re talking to stakeholders and we’re talking to those in the industry and we’re getting their input over the next several months while we’re beginning the rule-writing process.
Frederica Freyberg:
In terms of the adult use in Michigan, who is it that needs licensing?
David Harns:
So the way it is right now is the medical facilities have already gone through the process and we have over 100 licenses in place right now. We just had a board meeting yesterday where another 17 were doled out. That process started in December of 2017. Really got ramped up last summer. So all of the medical facilities that have applied and are now starting to get their licenses are now able to sell that product to cardholders here in Michigan. You have to be registered with the state and have a card. Those folks can buy it today if they go into a medical shop. But on the adult use side, all of the licensed shops will need to be — or all of the shops that are selling product in the future will need to be licensed by the state of Michigan.
Frederica Freyberg:
Now, marijuana is taxed. What are the projections for tax revenue I guess from both kinds of use?
David Harns:
Well, those numbers vary and it depends on how quickly things are going to get off the ground. But they do expect it to have a significant impact moving forward once the entire framework is put in place and everybody gets their businesses up and running. But it starts slowly for sure.
Frederica Freyberg:
On the medical marijuana, has there been any kind of decline in the use or abuse of opioids because people now are using marijuana for pain, for example?
David Harns:
Well, that’s kind of out of my wheelhouse, but there are anecdotal evidence. There is anecdotal stories that say that that is the case. We’re here to just implement the law as it was written. And I think that a lot of the people who voted for it did so because of that very reason.
Frederica Freyberg:
And this question. Not sure if this is in your wheelhouse either. But for either type of use, medical or recreational, I understand there is zero tolerance legally for driving under the influence of marijuana. Has the state seen an uptick in DUIs because of these laws then?
David Harns:
Just in following media reports, I would say that there’s been a little bit here and a little bit there, but nothing dramatically. Again, that’s not necessarily our purview here at the Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs. That’d be more of the state police or the local police but I do kind of pay attention to the media and I kind of watch for stories around this topic and there hasn’t been a big uptick that Ive seen in the media anyway.
Frederica Freyberg:
All right. Well, David Harns, thanks very much for your information out of Michigan.
David Harns:
For sure. Thank you.
Frederica Freyberg:
One of the things Governor Evers says he wants to address with his marijuana proposal is Wisconsin’s high black incarceration rate, saying the state is spending too much money prosecuting and incarcerating people, particularly people of color, for nonviolent crimes related to the possession of small amounts of marijuana. For his part, the chair of the Legislature’s Black Caucus, Milwaukee State Representative David Crowley agrees. He joins us now. Thanks for being here.
David Crowley:
Thank you for having me.
Frederica Freyberg:
So on our current laws on marijuana, how do they result in more people of color being incarcerated?
David Crowley:
Well, unfortunately, it just continues to happen. When you think about statewide, countrywide. In Milwaukee County alone, about 40% of black men are arrested for low-level crimes. About 100 times that here in Dane County. Not sure why that happens, but we know that we disproportionately lock up more black men here in the state of Wisconsin than any other state. And so we know we need to do something about that.
Frederica Freyberg:
So disproportionately people of color then are being arrested and convicted for small amounts of marijuana or multiple counts of that or?
David Crowley:
I think both. Small amounts but also multiple accounts as well. When you think about reforming the criminal justice system, it’s not just about making sure that people don’t go, but making sure that they have the tools needed to making sure they don’t continue to commit crimes in the future.
Frederica Freyberg:
Some specific language in the proposal says that neither marijuana odor nor the possession of less than 25 grams of marijuana may be used to establish probable cause. Does this mean that if an officer pulls up on someone and the person rolls down the window and there’s marijuana smoke coming out that they can’t search that car or what does this probable cause have to do with?
David Crowley:
Well, thats just what it is. It’s probable cause. I’m not sure. I haven’t actually read all of that as far as deep into the bills. But the thing is we know that people who are getting caught with 25 grams or less are going to jail and being prosecuted. So it’s really about making sure that we are providing some type of equity, making sure that African-Americans aren’t going to jail. I mean our white counterparts are using marijuana at the same rate as African-Americans so it’s important that we have some equity when it comes down to it because African-Americans are being locked up more.
Frederica Freyberg:
The plan would also put in place a procedure to expunge convictions of people who were charged and sentenced for possessing, manufacturing or distributing this less than 25 grams of marijuana. How would that change the lives of people if they could get these convictions expunged?
David Crowley:
I mean, when you think about people getting back into the workforce, their criminal convictions are what’s holding them back. And so we want to make sure that people, especially when you talk about the low unemployment rate that we have, we need to make sure that expungement is a route. And not just for marijuana convictions, but I think in general we need to be looking at that when you talk about reforming our criminal justice system.
Frederica Freyberg:
If we’re talking about decriminalization of these small amounts of marijuana, does that give people the idea that drugs are okay?
David Crowley:
I don’t think so. Again, we’re talking about medical marijuana, right. So this is making sure that people have access to some type of treatment. When we look at the opioid crisis that we’ve seen, we’ve seen studies that show that medical marijuana can help reduce opioid dependence and so looking at that. But also when we think about countrywide, there has been — the stigma on marijuana is being lifted. So I think many people are embracing that. I think that’s something the state of Wisconsin should do as well.
Frederica Freyberg:
How does the state of Wisconsin deal with the fact that marijuana is still illegal at the federal level?
David Crowley:
I think we follow some of what some of the other states have done. I know that Colorado, Arizona, when you look at California, we just can pretty much follow them. I know there’s going to be issues when it comes down to banking. But this is going to put more money into the government coffers here in the state to make sure that we can pay for roads, schools, and things of that nature.
Frederica Freyberg:
Now what happens, just this scenario, if marijuana’s decriminalized, medical marijuana legalized, but then employers drug test? You know, how does our population deal with that?
David Crowley:
Well, I think you’re still going to have that. We’re not saying that employers should not be able to drug test. Right now we’re starting with something, right. This is just the first step in looking at how this will really affect our state. So I think the employers have a right to actually drug test their folks. So we don’t want to impede on making sure that we have good people in the workforce or making it seem like they need to be sober as well. So in my personal opinion, I think we can continue but this is a step in the right direction.
Frederica Freyberg:
What do you think the odds are of the Republican majority voting for this?
David Crowley:
Im not sure. I think that the Republican leadership pretty much has everybody in line and I don’t think nobody’s going to fall out of line when it comes down to this. But what we’ve seen is competing proposals period. So I’m interested in seeing their medical marijuana proposal because I think that we can find a common place and actually move forward on it.
Frederica Freyberg:
All right. Representative David Crowley, thanks very much.
David Crowley:
Thank you.
Frederica Freyberg:
Not everyone is keen on legalizing any kind of marijuana in Wisconsin. In tonight’s inside look, we turn to Republican State Senator Duey Stroebel, who opposes the Evers’ proposal. Thanks for being here.
Duey Stroebel:
Hi, Frederica.
Frederica Freyberg:
Youre opposed to legalizing or decriminalizing any form of marijuana, even CBD oil. Why this kind of stringent stance on your part?
Duey Stroebel:
Well, I mean CBD oil is law. It’s legal. I had reservations about CBD oil because, quite frankly, I think it’s the modern day snake oil. I mean if you’ve seen the recent ads that take up half a page in our newspapers or the internet or what have you, I mean it claims to be the cure for everything. And what really bothered me is I thought we were really misleading people. There were mothers that were coming in with kids with really terrible situations. I know they were looking for anything they could grasp. Anything they could get ahold of. I thought it was disingenuous that we sat there, nodded our heads, inferring that CBD oil will be the end-all for them when I knew it wouldn’t be. So that was really my big issue with CBD oil, just a disingenuousness of the whole thing with CBD oil. As far as marijuana, I just think we’ve got enough issues with substance abuse in this country right now. I just seem to think that that is just the wrong direction to go. There’s so much unknown about the use of pot and long-term effects. I mean, the more and more you read, you see about the psychosis, the violence that follows it, and Im concerned about that. It certainly is well-documented about our youth and their use of it. And before the brain is fully developed, even before 25 years old, the long-term impacts that that can have. To me, it’s scary. It just doesn’t make sense to be doing right now.
Frederica Freyberg:
On medical marijuana, a common use is for pain. Wisconsin, as you know, like other states, has this opioid abuse problem. Wouldn’t marijuana be better to treat pain than opioids?
Duey Stroebel:
Actually, the statistics show that really when you have more marijuana consumption, that you have more opioid abuse. I mean that’s really what the statistics show. When you look at the United States and you look at Canada, they’re the highest users among pot smokers in the world, but yet the opioid abuse is the worst in Canada and the United States. So that’s really not factual, that statement. The studies bear that out.
Frederica Freyberg:
As to going back — we’re kind of flipping back and forth between these things, but as to CBD oil, now the FDA has approved it for epilepsy, nausea from chemotherapy and for weight loss in AIDS. So why again your opposition if it’s got that kind of imprimatur from the FDA?
Duey Stroebel:
I don’t think there’s really been clinical studies that have confirmed those things. I think quite frankly CBD oil has no psychotropic effect. You don’t get high from it or anything like that. There’s really no downside to it. But is there really a benefit to it? And, again, that was my biggest issue with CBD oil. You know, people will be spending a lot of money on this. And has it really been proven to be effective and to work on these things? According to clinical studies that Ive read and seen, it really isn’t any type of confirmed science at all.
Frederica Freyberg:
Well, you must really not like the proposal that’s in the Evers’ plan that says that we could decriminalize kind of recreational marijuana, allowing possession of 25 grams or less. What do you think of that? Some people are talking about this as being kind of an effort to get at the black incarceration rate.
Duey Stroebel:
Yeah. Well, I don’t know really what decriminalize means. I think it means legalize. And, you know, again, is this the direction we really want to go in society? And you bring up the black incarceration rate. I’m glad you brought that up. You know, when you look at our prisons in this state, about 1.5% of the prison population is there because of drug possession. And that’s all drugs. Thats cocaine, that’s heroin, you name it. The fractions — the amount of that 1.5% of the population in our prisons that pertains to marijuana possession is much less than that. So that’s really — again, that’s really a nonstarter, to indicate that that’s going to have something to do with the incarceration rate of certain segments of our community. It just really doesn’t have anything to do with the possession of marijuana as the facts bear out.
Frederica Freyberg:
All right. We need to leave it there. Senator Stroebel, thanks very much for joining us.
Duey Stroebel:
Thanks for having me.
Frederica Freyberg:
Governor Evers this week took out his veto pen on the first piece of legislation sent to his desk by the Republican legislature. He rejected the majority’s tax cut bill, saying it didn’t have a funding source past the next two years. Evers plans to introduce his own tax cut proposal in his two-year state budget. His proposal would reduce tax credits on manufacturers to help pay for it. Governor Tony Evers will deliver his budget address next Thursday night. Wisconsin Public Television and Radio will bring you live coverage of the address starting at 7:00 p.m.
Chronic Wasting Disease now affects deer in some 25 Wisconsin counties but is the disease more than a wildlife management concern affecting harvest numbers? In tonight’s look ahead, scientists from the University of Minnesota are now saying CWD should be treated as a public health issue because it’s probable, they say, it will jump to humans, much like Mad Cow Disease infected humans in Britain. Michael Osterholm is director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. He joins us now from Minneapolis. And thanks very much for doing so.
Michael Osterholm:
Thank you.
Frederica Freyberg:
We have also been told that CWD has never infected humans who’ve eaten or handled infected deer. Why are you saying that that’s probable to change?
Michael Osterholm:
Well first of all, we have to take a brief snapshot of history and understand that back in 1986 when the first cows were showing signs and symptoms of a very similar condition, which was labeled Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, everyone around the world said don’t worry about it. There’s a species barrier. This prion will not jump from animals to humans. Of course, we learned ten years later that in fact it had already jumped from animals to humans and we had the result outbreak of Mad Cow Disease or what in our business we call Variant CreutzfeldtJakob disease. And if you look at the conditions today’s for what’s happening with Chronic Wasting Disease in whitetail deer and elk in North America, very, very similar situation. We have enough data from the laboratory side to say that it’s surely possible that this particular prion could in fact go from deer or elk to humans. And what we don’t want to do is find out ten years from now that we wish we had done something about that when we could have and didn’t.
Frederica Freyberg:
Not only that, you don’t believe that these infections will be isolated. Why is that?
Michael Osterholm:
Well, first of all, we have on our hands a wildlife disaster that’s unfolding right before our eyes. When this disease was first detected in Colorado a number of years ago, at that time, people didn’t really understand how it might spread throughout the entire area of North America. Well unfortunately cervid
game farms or farms that raise elk and whitetail deer move these animals around quite frequently, often from one state to another. And in the process they had very lax security, meaning that the fencing and so forth was such that these animals could get out. Well with these animals, they also brought the prion to areas that had not otherwise previously had it. Minnesota, Wisconsin — all the states in the upper Midwest are a classic example. And then what happened though after that occurred, some states when they first had the problem aggressively attacked it, tried to deal with the game farm issues, did everything they could to contain the wildlife infections that were occurring around the area and slowed it down. States like Wisconsin did little. I think the DNR response in Wisconsin was nothing short of a wildlife disaster. And now you have counties like Iowa County in Wisconsin where you may have 30 to 35% of the deer that are infected. We have a problem right here in Minnesota, where fortunately our DNR has been very aggressive in trying to limit transmission around game farms where this is found, but still it’s been a challenge. The prion is now in at least 24 states. It’s in two provinces in Canada. Estimates are now made that as high as 17,000 people are eating Chronic Wasted-infected venison every year. And as that number of states where infections occur increases, where the number of infected animals in each of these states increases, we’re only going to see more and more humans exposed to this prion.
Frederica Freyberg:
What would happen to a person infected with CWD?
Michael Osterholm:
Well first of all let me be really clear. We don’t know that in fact this prion that causes Chronic Wasting Disease in the whitetail deer and elk will be transmitted to humans. But I think that there’s enough scientific evidence now to say it surely is possible. We don’t want to wait until that happens. We’d expect not to see the big impact of this in North America for another ten years even if it were happening today. And finally, there’s no treatment. And so these people from the time that they have their first signs and symptoms till they die may very well be a year or less.
Frederica Freyberg:
Now, your predictions or projections may certainly come off as alarmist. How do you respond to that?
Michael Osterholm:
Well, I think it’s just the opposite. I think our job is not to scare people out of their wits. It’s to scare them into their wits. You know, again, let’s just go back to what happened in 1986. I was one of those then that said this is a serious problem here in England and we need to do everything we can to limit and even prevent any of these infected animals from getting into the meat supply. You had the head of agriculture for England putting his grandchildren on TV eating hamburger showing that in fact that they were safe to eat when in fact they weren’t at all. So we’re in the same boat right now. So you can argue that what we’re saying is scary. What I think is scary is what if we’re right and there really is transmission and we have all these cases eight to ten years from now? All we’re suggesting is, first of all, we need to continue hunting. Hunting is a major way of maintaining the relatively smaller herds of these animals which reduces the potential for transmission. But what we’re calling for is these animals should be tested before they’re ever consumed, before they’re ever put into meat processing. We need a national, comprehensive program to respond, where hunters can have access to rapid, reliable and easy to use tests right in the field, potentially, where they then know is this deer infected or not. If we see potentially-infected deer in the field, the meaning that they show the classic symptoms of a wasting disease kind of picture, we should be offering rewards to hunters who actually shoot those deer and make them available to the DNR to limit them. Right now why would you want to shoot a deer like that if that’s going to be your deer for the year? We should be rewarding people. So there’s a lot we can do that’s not scary. It’s practical. And in the end, what will be scary is ten years from now if you and I are having this same interview but in that case talking about potentially many cases of human Chronic Wasting Disease in people.
Frederica Freyberg:
Indeed. Michael Osterholm out of Minneapolis, thank you very much.
Michael Osterholm:
Thank you.
Frederica Freyberg:
We turn now from science news to the 2020 presidential election. Milwaukee is among the finalists to be the host city for the 2020 Democratic National Convention. Reports this week show that Milwaukee holds an edge for the event over its competitors, Houston and Miami. The Democratic National Committee says a final decision is expected at the end of the month. Wisconsin spring election day is April 2. The race for state Supreme Court heats up with the first ads to hit the airwaves. Brian Hagedorns ad tells the story of his family adopting a baby born addicted to opioids. Lisa Neubauer’s spot focuses on a civil rights lawsuit she lead over an illegal strip search. This comes the same week Hagedorn lost the endorsement of the Wisconsin Realtors Association due to the candidate’s ties to a private school that bans gay staff members and expels gay students. Neubauer drew criticism as well this week for her practice of not releasing the names of customers of her husband’s business. The campaign says she stopped the practice almost a decade ago and is in compliance with ethics rules.
Next week, Brian Hagedorn will join “Here & Now.” Lisa Neubauer appeared last Friday. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.
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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.
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