Announcer:

The following program is part of our “Here and Now” 2018 Wisconsin Vote election coverage.

Donald Trump:

The state of our union is strong because our people are strong.

[applause]

Frederica Freyberg:

President Donald Trump at his State of the Union Address. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here and Now,” State of the Union thoughts from U.S. Representatives Pocan and Grothman. After that, a political panel as McCoshen and Ross weigh in on the speech and this week’s public hearing on welfare bills at the capitol. It’s “Here and Now” for February 2.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here and Now” is provided in part by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

Frederica Freyberg:

The president’s State of the Union Address is practically in the rear view, except that he spoke to several issues that lay ahead for Congress to tackle: infrastructure and military spending, immigration. House Republicans attended a retreat following the address to strategize on priorities going forward. Wisconsin Republican Representative Glenn Grothman is still on his way back from that retreat and joins us now by phone and Congressman, thanks very much for doing so.

Glenn Grothman:

Glad to be on the show. I wish I was in the studio in Vilas Hall.

Frederica Freyberg:

As do we. First let me say that we are glad you and the rest of the delegation are ok following this week’s train accident.

Glenn Grothman:

A horrible thing, and it really ruined the week and it’s something I'll never forget, you know. Two nice guys who just I'm sure left that morning thinking a regular day at work, one passed away and the other in very serious condition. So, it’s something I'll never forget. We just have to pray for the families.

Frederica Freyberg:

Yeah, very sorry about that. But now to the latest news. What is your response to the releasing of the Republican Fiza memo?

Glenn Grothman:

Well I think it should be released. I mean people should know what people like me see. There’s a corresponding memo that was produced by Democrat staff. I’ve been in West Virginia the last two days. I have not had a chance to look at it yet. I plan on looking at it next week.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about the fact that the FBI and the Justice Department reportedly asked for this memo not to be released?

Glenn Grothman:

Well, I think maybe put the FBI in a bad light, so it’s not surprising they wouldn’t want it released. But Donald Trump is the head of the executive branch of the government, I'm glad it was released. I mean it seems ridiculous that –I don’t think it impacted national security, at least that I could see. It seems only fair that the public should know what I know.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let's move along from that. As for the Congressional GOP retreat, what's the consensus? What are the priorities?

Glenn Grothman:

Well, we obviously spent a lot of time talking about immigration. We spent a lot of time talking about national security. We had both the secretary of state and secretary of defense talk to us about the importance of military build-up. And we also talked about the benefits of the tax cut, went over what the public knows about that, and things we can continue to convey to the public about that. Those were the big three things we addressed. We began to look a little bit at the infrastructure bill in the future, though to be honest, there are a lot of details yet to be filled in there.

Frederica Freyberg:

On that, the president wants, as you know, $1.5 trillion in infrastructure spending. About $200 billion from the feds, the rest coming from the states. How in your mind would Wisconsin fare under such a plan when we already struggle to fund our roads and highways?

Glenn Grothman:

Oh, anything we get to the state of Wisconsin with regard to the roads is for the good. You know, I think in the last few months Governor Walker has moved up some projects, at least over the last year he has. But even then, there are more projects yet to go. And whatever more money we can get to Wisconsin, whether it goes towards moving up the Highway 23 project, whether it goes somewhere else around the state is for the better.

Frederica Freyberg:

Sure getting federal funds is for the better, but you, having served in the legislature, know the struggles of finding those funds for infrastructure in Wisconsin. Where would that come from?

Glenn Grothman:

I think with matching funds, some would be contributed by the state. Some would be contributed, I think, by fees. And some would come from the federal government. I think some of it is going to be dedicated to rural broadband. There’s no question we’re going to have our eye on the more rural areas of the state and I think rural broadband is very good for economic development in the rural parts of the state, so hopefully that area will get its fair share.

Frederica Freyberg:

Congress is up against another deadline as you know, to authorize spending, or risk another shutdown at the same time facing a deadline to deal with so-called dreamers. Ahead of outlining his immigration plan, which includes building the wall, the president painted a frightening picture of illegal immigrants as murderers and criminals. Here’s a snippet of what he said more generally.

Donald Trump:

My duty and the sacred duty of every elected official in this chamber is to defend Americans, to protect their safety, their families, their communities, and their right to the American dream. Because Americans are dreamers, too.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now as to the president’s immigration plan Congressman, he would offer citizenship to 1.8 million people brought into the U.S. illegally as children. What’s your position on that?

Glenn Grothman:

Well, we’ll see what restrictions there are in that regard. And I think the important thing is the bill that we pass has to make sure in the future our immigration law works. You know, in the past we’ve had presidents of both parties–this is not a partisan issue. I think both President Obama and President Bush did a bad job on immigration. I think the important things in Donald Trump’s plan are things like an end of chain migra–chain immigration. Things like getting rid of the lottery, having people come in that way, setting ourselves down on a merit-based system. Something we talked about at length. It’s still a work in progress. I personally would be surprised to get it done by February 8th. I do not know why what a potential DACA compromise has to do with you getting your income tax refund on time. I hope there are not extremists in the legislature who vote against keeping the government open because they want a DACA bill now. Most of these immigrants, many of these immigrants, I shouldn’t say most, but some of these immigrants have been in the country for 25 years. And to me we want a good deal. So that good deal be February 8th, March 8 or April 8th, it’s no reason to shut down the government in the interim.

Frederica Freyberg:

I read that you’re quoted as saying that “we would rather shut down the government than go down the path of ruining America.” Is that what an immigration deal would do?

Glenn Grothman:

No, I — we are not going, I'm not going to vote to shut down the government, I'll tell you that. I think the government should be kept open. However, if there are Democrats who say they will shut down the government unless I vote for a bad immigration deal, no. I'll vote to keep the government open, but I think the two things are separate issues.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Congressman Glenn Grothman, we need to leave it there. Thanks very much for your time.

Glenn Grothman:

Glad to be on the show as always.

Frederica Freyberg:

There are some 8,000 dreamers in Wisconsin, brought here by their parents as children. Protection against deportation for them under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, or DACA, runs out March 5th under a President Trump executive order. We interviewed one of the dreamers this week, college sophomore Lupe Salmeron came to Wisconsin from Mexico when she was six years old. She describes what it’s like to live with the uncertainty of whether she will be able to stay.

Lupe Salmeron:

I guess, like, it’s always on your mind, you know. It’s just subconsciously there. You don’t know if you’ll be able to use your degree when you graduate. You don’t know what’s going to happen, so you just kind of are like here powering through it, you know, trying to get it done. So that if you can, you know, have a life with it after like you’ll have that but if you don’t, you just kind of, you know, there back at where you were. But it just kind of, you know, makes me afraid for the future, you know. With DACA, I knew that like I would be able to use my degree. I knew that I’d be able to get an internship. I knew I’d be able to get a job. But with it kind of being up in the air, I'm really not sure what’s going to happen. I don’t know if I'll be employable. I don’t know…I don’t know what’s going to happen, so just kind of there, you know. We’re living in limbo again.

Frederica Freyberg:

That was Madison Edgewood College and DACA recipient, Lupe Salmeron. Salmeron was a guest at the last State of the Union Address. The U.S. representative who invited her joins us now, Madison Democrat Congressman Mark Pocan. Thanks very much for being here.

Mark Pocan:

Glad to be here, thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

So the first thing I wanted to ask about was your reaction to the release of this Republican Fiza memo.

Mark Pocan:

You know, I had read it a while back and I said go ahead and release it. There’s nothing here. But, and it’s a big important but, the underlying information, you have to redact how we get our information or you’re sharing with the Russians and any other country how we gather it. Unfortunately, the Republicans weren’t willing to do that through this whole process. They wouldn’t show it to the FBI or Justice a week ago. They wouldn’t show it to the Senate Intelligence Committee which are also run by Republicans. I mean this has been such a manufactured crisis, so, you know, I think it’s fine, it’s out there now. I don’t think anyone is going to see anything that has not already been reported. I just think it’s awful risky the way we released it, because now we’re probably showing other countries how we gather intelligence.

Frederica Freyberg:

Hence why the FBI and Justice maybe didn’t want it released?

Mark Pocan:

Exactly. That was their concern. No one’s actually concerned about the content of the memo because it’s a big nothing burger. It’s a piece of lettuce between two buns. There’s no burger there. But because they’re so desperate to try to distract this Mueller investigation at any cost. Let’s let it run its course and this is just one more of those efforts by Devin Nunes, who already has had to supposedly recuse himself from the Russia investigation but he still directed the staff to write this. He’s the guy, you gotta remember, like nine months ago said he had some information he had to share with the White House. Then we found out a few days later he got it the night before from the White House and then he gave it to them. He’s been completely proven to be a sycophant on this. And now, this is again his memo. So, I think at the end, you know, we’ll look back in a couple weeks and go oh, that was a yawn, but right now the concern by the intelligence community is we’re giving away information that we never have done before.

Frederica Freyberg:

Moving along to the president’s State of the Union and reaction to that. On his immigration plan, he says he would like to offer a path to citizenship for like 1.8 million immigrants brought here by their parents. You’re calling for so-called “clean” dream act. What is that?

Mark Pocan:

Every time we try and negotiate with the president, the goal line moves. So at one point we had an agreement, this is months ago, to provide some additional roads along the border, some drone patrol, nothing about a wall, to fix what he broke because DACA was not broke until the president broke it. And then he went and had a rally the next day and the base wants a wall, so we were off that agreement. And then during the shutdown conversations just recently, we had another agreement where actually after they walked away from the president, the president’s staff came up to Chuck Schumer and said, “Here’s what the president really meant.” That’s not negotiation. So we can’t really trust the way the goal post keeps moving. Bottom line is we should just fix DACA because it never should have been broken to begin with. And let’s have a meaningful conversation about immigration reform. But it has been very difficult with the president in the White House on this issue because I think there’s competing factors within the White House, whether it be Miller and Kelly, or other staff. It’s been very challenging.

Frederica Freyberg:

Did you hear their voices in his State of the Union?

Mark Pocan:

That was the part that I think is most memorable from a negative perspective of the State of the Union was just the fear-mongering around immigrants. We talked more about MS13 gang members as if they’re around every corner than we did talk about the opioid crisis or other issues. So, clearly there was a lot of fear-mongering put in that speech to try to justify a wall and I think most people think the wall’s unnecessary, but immigration reform is a conversation we have to have.

Frederica Freyberg:

The president was able to boast, many would believe rightfully, about the economy. I mean, unemployment is low. The stock market is screaming hot. Do Democrats like yourself reject that these are positive indicators of a strong economy?

Mark Pocan:

It's a positive sign that for 80 consecutive months, so, the vast majority of that under President Obama, since 2008 the economy has been coming up. The problem is the stock market alone isn’t a good indicator of how real working families are affected by it. We’re finally seeing a little bit of a spike in people’s wage, but that’s been behind. So while productivity is up and the stock market’s up, people aren’t really seeing it yet in their paychecks and that’s the part we have to address because wages have been flat for so long. There’s some catching up to do. The minimum wage is way subpar and I think once we address those issues, then real working families across Wisconsin will actually feel the economy like those in the top 1 and 2% have felt it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, speaking of more money in people’s paychecks, the Republican tax plan would put more money in people’s paychecks. We are told that average families will see lower tax bills as well. What’s your take on those can tax cuts?

Mark Pocan:

Two things. First of all, these are tax cuts done for the wealthiest, for the Republican donors as said by several Republicans during the whole process. In ten years, when the tax cuts for the middle class completely go away and vanish, they stay for the corporations and for the wealthiest. So, 83% of the money in ten years will go to the top 1%. That’s the facts of what they passed. So people will see a little increase now and I would caution people that there was a big controversy. The IRS might have maybe overestimated because they were being a little bit politically pressured to give you bigger amounts now that you may not see at tax time next year. So be a little careful if you’re one of the people who waits for that refund. You may be getting more now. So just be a little bit aware of that, but on general, the tax cuts are totally skewed for the corporations and wealthiest. And ten years the only part that’s left. So really, if you want to do tax relief in a meaningful way, you have to affect working class people. Middle class, those aspiring to be in the middle class for a longer period of time than what they’re doing.

Frederica Freyberg:

What's your take on the president’s plan for infrastructure spending?

Mark Pocan:

We’re hoping we can maybe have some negotiation on this because I think he has talked about investing in infrastructure. The problem is the vast majority of what he’s talking about is selling off roads and bridges to private companies and letting them build things and charge tolls. So just maybe got a little bit in your check off the tax bill and now you’re pay it to cross a bridge somewhere. That’s not investing in public infrastructure like I think most people consider. Investing in roads and bridges and schools and broadband with public dollars is what would actually make sense. And if he’s willing to do more than what he’s talked about in that area, I would love to work with him as I think most people would. But right now, just selling things off to Wall Street hedge fund managers so they can make a profit and everyone else pays a toll is not a good idea.

Frederica Freyberg:

Congressman Mark Pocan, thanks very much.

Mark Pocan:

Sure, thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

In tonight’s closer look, unpacking the politics of the State of the Union and looking ahead with capitol consultants managing partner and Republican strategist Bill McCoshen, and Democrat Scot Ross, executive director of One Wisconsin Now. Guys, thanks very much for being here.

Bill McCoshen, Scot Ross:

Thanks for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:

So right out of the shoots, I want to ask you both what your reaction is to the White House releasing what I’ll call the Republican Fiza memo. Bill?

Bill McCoshen:

I think they turned it back to Congress to release and it should have been released by the time this airs. I think it’s a good thing. I think the American public needs to know if there’s — either if the fix was in to help Hillary Clinton or to hurt Donald Trump. Neither is right and I think they ought to release the Democratic memo, too. The public needs to know. They have to have confidence in their top cops at Justice and FBI. And right now I'm not sure they do.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about the fact the FBI and Justice are both saying, “Please don’t do that.”

Bill McCoshen:

Of course they are because it’s going to expose a lot of the things that they’ve been doing potentially wrong.

Scot Ross:

This is nonsense. This is about covering Donald Trump’s keister. And Paul Ryan is not only — not just complicit. He is now aiding and abetting the trashing of law enforcement. Every person involved in this is a Republican. Donald Trump got caught. He is afraid of getting exposed as colluding with the Russian government to get his election. And now they are doing a smoke and mirrors, muddy the waters thing which is what Republicans are really good at.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you don’t feel like it’s politicizing the whole investigation?

Bill McCoshen:

I think the whole investigation is political. So, why not put the facts out there for the public to judge one way or the other. Put the Republican memo out, and then follow the same process and put the Democratic memo out. Let the people decide.

Frederica Freyberg:

You’re steaming hot on this.

Scot Ross:

I am steaming hot because this is ridiculous. This is four pages of garbage written by Devin Nunes.

Bill McCoshen:

He’s never read it. You have to have top secret clearance to see it today.

Scot Ross:

Devin Nunes was over at the White House, getting his talking points and getting his direction and going to secret meetings. Now he’s put out a four-page memo saying that the top law enforcement is somehow in the tank for Hillary Clinton. My god, James Comey.

Bill McCoshen:

We know, we know that.

Scot Ross:

My god, people rightfully say that James Comey and what the FBI did in terms of the election are why Donald Trump is in the White House right now.

Bill McCoshen:

Your viewers are smart enough. Let’ em judge for themselves.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Let’s take a listen to something the president said during the State of the Union. He seemed to be putting people who might cross him on notice. Let’s listen.

Donald Trump:

So tonight I call on Congress to empower every cabinet secretary with the authority to reward good workers and to remove federal employees who undermine the public trust or fail the American people.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, who’s he talking about there?

Scot Ross:

I don’t know. I didn’t — I can’t see the video right now but I'm wondering if when he started talking about respect, Paul Ryan may have backed up just a bit in case a lightning bolt struck. You know, what the speech was is our American carnage, the sequel, you know, MS13. This was a ridiculous speech of xenophobia, racism, of non-truth telling and basically laying out the division that exists in America for all to see and he continues to just simply play to 35% of the electorate.

Bill McCoshen:

On your point, he's a businessman. He’s the first true businessman to be president in several decades and this is what happens in the private sector. If you mess up, you’re out. That’s how it should work it the public sector and that’s what he’s speaking to. And my guess is the majority of Americans are with him on that.

Frederica Freyberg:

It sounded kind of menacing, like he might be talking about some of these people in the FBI or the Justice Department or — we don’t know.

Bill McCoshen:

We never really know with Donald Trump. You know, maybe we’ll know in a tweet someday down the road, but I think process-wise, what he’s speaking to, the American people are with him.

Scot Ross:

I’m going to agree with him on one thing and that is he has some sort of experience in business but he’s not a businessman. He’s a brand manager. That’s what the Trump empire was about. It was about the brand.

Bill McCoshen:

He can manage my brand. He’s worth billions of dollars.

Scot Ross:

He brands himself in terms of this 35%.

Frederica Freyberg:

You feel like he gets a bump out of this speech?

Bill McCoshen:

He did. His poll numbers are already up. Morning Consult, Politico put something out today. His favorability is now up to 49, which is the highest it’s been since June of 2017. So he absolutely got a bump. Two different national polls, one by CBS, one by Politico, said more than 70% of the people who watched the State of the Union thought it was really good. So I mean, there’s no question he got a bump out of this. Smart politics.

Frederica Freyberg:

You’re not going to talk about a bump.

Scot Ross:

I don’t necessary think–if there is a bump, it’s not long lasting. It’s probably people who were asked, “Are you ok with the speech being finally over?”

Frederica Freyberg:

So meanwhile, that’s good and may allay some of the concern on the part of Republicans for midterms?

Bill McCoshen:

Yeah, no question about it. The higher his numbers are, the more likely it is they’ll maintain their majorities in both houses. Now, let’s just say the map favors Republicans in the senate anyway. Ten senators who are up this year are in states that Trump won. Six of those by double digits. So, the map favors Republicans to keep the senate. But as it relates to the Congress, there is a relationship between the president’s approval rating and their ability to maintain that house.

Scot Ross:

Yeah, the politics — the map may favor the Republicans but the politics favors the Democrats.

Bill McCoshen:

No way. That’s changed.

Scot Ross:

Right now you’ve got 12 house seats that are open right now the Democrats are targeting. And they are out-fundraising the Republicans 3 to 1 in those 12 house seats all across the country.

Bill McCoshen:

The Republicans have raised more money than ever before, ever before. They will be well funded in the races. The pendulum has swung on policy. The tax cut has been huge so far. And people just saw the first signs of that in their paycheck yesterday and they’ll continue to see it throughout 2018. That benefits Republicans.

Scot Ross:

[inaudible] is clearly with the Republicans and Senator Adam Jarchow to the 10th Senate district. Absolutely 100%. Listen, you can see the politics in the way Scott Walker started to pander to his base in terms of this welfare reform nonsense of trying to pay off voters with a$100 check right before the election. And that he’s basically running a 1994 campaign, touring the state with your pal Tommy Thompson right now.

Bill McCoshen:

I ran that campaign.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to talk about that in a minute, but first I want to get to what the president said about infrastructure spending. Let’s go ahead and take a look at that sound bite as well.

Donald Trump:

Tonight I'm calling on Congress to produce a bill that generates at least $1.5 trillion for the new the infrastructure investment that our country so desperately needs.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, the thing about this, though, is that the states have to spend money to get money. And now I know that Governor Walker is talking about potentially being ok with a gas tax so that we could get some of this federal money for infrastructure spending? What about that?

Scot Ross:

His first effort on this, Trump’s was not one single penny to actually spend on asphalt to pave a road anywhere in the United States of America. This is smoke and mirrors. And the fact that Scott Walker has made an election year conversion, next we’re going to find out that water’s wet.

Bill McCoshen:

I think the policy’s good. We do need to improve our roads, our bridges, our harbors and our airports. There’s no question about that. I think the politics are tricky. I’m not sure he can get any additional spending through Congress at this point after the tax increase. And to Scott's point, I mean states have to spend potentially up to 70% in match money and Wisconsin isn’t well positioned to get that.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s talk about, as you just were a moment ago, Tommy Thompson and Governor Walker flying around the state touting this welfare reform. Thoughts?

Bill McCoshen:

It worked for Tommy Thompson. It was without question one of the things that helped him win the governorship in 1986 and it continued to be popular, to the point where Bill Clinton signed the federal welfare reform into law ten years later.

Frederica Freyberg:

It’s back.

Scot Ross:

Yeah, it’s definitely back but the fact is that attacking people, the most recent barometer we have of that is the Republicans went all in on attacking Patty Schachtner up in the 10th Senate district campaign about welfare reform, about opposing having people urinate in cups in order to get their public benefits. And she won by 10 points in a seat not held by — not won by Democrats since 1996. And so the politics on this are all wrong but Scott Walker’s going back to that well about dividing people, about pulling out the dog whistle. And I think he’s going to find a real problem this time around.

Frederica Freyberg:

We need to leave it there. Scot Ross, Bill McCoshen, thanks very much.

Scot Ross, Bill McCoshen:

Thanks.

Frederica Freyberg:

A public hearing at the state capitol stretched for hours midweek as people on both sides spoke out on the raft of special session bills related to new requirements for recipients of public benefits. Requirements like drug testing for those in public housing and making food stamp recipients work more hours in return for eligibility. Republican framers of the bill say the point of the changes is to get recipients off welfare and into work. Those opposed say it doesn’t always work as intended.

Lisa Subeck:

And certainly the idea that simply increasing the number of hours by ten is suddenly going to make people more successful, um, I — I'm looking for the evidence there. I feel like they are better evidence-based strategies we can use. And I’m wondering if you have evidence that that works.

Robin Vos:

So this is not just about kicking people off of benefits and your characterization which is what I think you’re trying to imply, it’s really about getting people the benefits of work, not the benefits of government dependence.

Frederica Freyberg:

And finally tonight, a look ahead to next week. That’s when we’ll look at a bill introduced earlier this month that could redirect funds that are currently sent to school libraries. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

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For more information on “Here and Now” 2018 election coverage, go to WisconsinVote.org.