Here & Now

Here & Now for August 28, 2020

Announcer:

A PBS Wisconsin original production. The following program is part of our “Here & Now” 2020 election coverage.

Frederica Freyberg:

Kenosha, another Black man shot by police. Violent protests lead to more gunfire and two people dead. An underage vigilante charged with their murder. And Wisconsin takes a place at the GOP National Convention in the party’s call for law and order.

Donald Trump:

I profoundly accept this nomination for president of the United States.

[cheers and applause]

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” the latest on the tragedy in Kenosha. And a conversation with Attorney General Josh Kaul. We’ll recap the GOP National Convention with former Lieutenant Governor Rebecca Kleefisch and hear about the coveted rural Wisconsin vote from a party leader in Wausau. Plus, a post-convention talk with our political panelists McCoshen and Ross. It’s “Here & Now” for August 28.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

National attention was drawn to Kenosha this week as police shot Jacob Blake, a 29-year-old Black man, seven times in the back. Will Kenneally reports on the ensuing protests and calls for change.

Will Kenneally:

A Black man shot by police, an all-too familiar story happened in Kenosha Sunday, turning the city upside down and attracting global attention once again.

Jacob Blake Sr.:

They shot my son. Seven times. Seven times. Like he didn’t matter. But my son matters.

Will Kenneally:

Police were trying to arrest Jacob Blake, shooting him as he entered his car. He survived, but his family said he’s paralyzed and the incident sent Kenosha reeling. Protests continued throughout the week, ranging from peaceful to violent.

Police:

Please clear the roadway.

Will Kenneally:

Culminating Tuesday night when a 17-year-old was shown on video fatally shooting two demonstrators and injuring a third. The Illinois teenage now faces multiple charges including two counts of murder.

Daniel Miskinis:

Everybody involved was out after the curfew. I’m not going to make a great deal of that. But the point is the curfew is in place to protect. Had persons not been out involved in violation of that, perhaps the situation that unfolded would not have happened.

Will Kenneally:

Tensions were further raised by images of police handing out water to armed militia at the protests.

Police:

We appreciate you guys. We really do.

Will Kenneally:

The erosion of trust in the system led demonstrators to call for holistic change.

Woman:

If the system requires further investigation other than visual proof and multiple witnesses, then we don’t want the system.

Man:

That’s right.

Woman:

Period.

Michael Bell:

The system, the system, the system is broken.

Will Kenneally:

Michael Bell lost his son to a Kenosha police shooting in 2004. Since then, he has worked to reform how police investigations are handled.

Michael Bell:

That’s why it’s so important to have an outside agency conduct this. So if you really want to know the truth about what’s going on, you have to do that.

Will Kenneally:

Right now, the state Department of Justice is leading the investigation into the shooting. It was announced earlier in the week that the FBI would launch its own civil rights investigation.

Josh Kaul:

Having topnotch investigators who handle a lot of these cases and are expert in investigating them I think is a good process.

Will Kenneally:

That is not enough for protestors.

Woman:

We want the officers who shot Jacob Blake in the back, we want them fired, we want them arrested, and we want them prosecuted.

[cheers]

Will Kenneally:

The investigation could take up to 30 days and will ultimately be in the hands of the Kenosha County DA whether to file charges against the officer. Community organizers say people can take change into their own hands by showing up to local government meetings and continuing to pressure officials.

Woman:

Right now we’re kind of stuck with the list of options that are on the ballot for November. But there is elections every year. People here, you have the power to stand up and represent your community. Consider running for office. Consider finding somebody to represent you.

Will Kenneally:

Reporting from Kenosha, this is Will Kenneally for “Here & Now.”

Frederica Freyberg:

To call public attention to changing the pattern and practice of police officers, the Milwaukee Bucks this week boycotted one of their games. They had a phone call with Wisconsin Attorney General Josh Kaul to understand the particulars of the shooting of Jacob Blake by a Kenosha officer. The state Department of Justice is investigating the shooting of Jacob Blake and Attorney General Josh Kaul joins us now. Thanks very much for being here.

Josh Kaul:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you have been swift to provide investigative detail to the public. How important is that in your mind in the midst of the angst and anguish in Kenosha that has spread really all across the country?

Josh Kaul:

We want to be as open and transparent and as you said, swift in providing details about this investigation to the public as we can be. But that also has to be balanced against our primary priority which is to make sure that this investigation is full and thorough. So we’re not going to be releasing any information that in any way might undermine our ability to conduct that kind of investigation. But to the extent that we can do that consistent with making sure the investigation is full and thorough, we want to do so.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is the latest status on your investigation into the police officer who shot Jacob Blake seven times in the back and the other officers involved? For example, have you determined why the officer would shoot and was Jacob Blake armed?

Josh Kaul:

The investigation is moving forward quickly. We have conducted several material witness interviews, for example. Evidence has been sent to the crime labs for analysis. I’m not going to comment on some of the specifics on facts that are probably going to be disputed facts at the center of this case. But we are working to move the investigation quickly so that a decision can be made and we can move forward as appropriate.

Frederica Freyberg:

For example, you were releasing today that officers tried to use Tasers on Jacob Blake and they failed. Also, that there was a knife in the floorboards of his car. Are those accurate things that you have released so far?

Josh Kaul:

That’s right. We’ve been releasing information that we think is clearly established based on the facts from our investigation. But we also only released that information once we believed it was appropriate based on the interviews that had been conducted. We’re going to keep doing that as we move forward, because we want to keep people informed to the extent we can. But I also — it’s also critically important to the investigation that we only do so in a way that’s consistent with keeping that investigation full and thorough.

Frederica Freyberg:

How long do you expect your probe to continue and when might this case then be handed over to Kenosha County for any charging decisions?

Josh Kaul:

I don’t have a specific date. What I can tell you is we’re going to continue moving forward as swiftly as we can consistent with making sure that the investigation is conducted with the kind of integrity it needs to be.

Frederica Freyberg:

Will you then make a recommendation to the DA on what they charge?

Josh Kaul:

Our practice in these cases is not to make a recommendation to the district attorney as to whether there should be charges brought or not, but instead to present the information as fully as we can be. Our goal in this case, as in any case, is to vigorously pursue justice and get to the truth of all the relevant facts.

Frederica Freyberg:

I know that this other case that we’re about to talk about is being charged by Kenosha County. But as to the fatal shooting of two demonstrators in the midst of the protest by an Illinois teenage vigilante armed with an AR-15, what is your response to that?

Josh Kaul:

Well I thought that that event was despicable. We have seen violence and arson and destruction of things in the city of Kenosha. And that needs to stop. Fortunately, we have seen a few nights now of peaceful protesting rather than the kind of violence and destruction we had seen. But the people of Kenosha have been through very traumatic events, need to have the opportunity to grieve, to come together, to raise the issues that they want to raise, to protest peacefully, without having people who are in many cases from outside of Kenosha and even outside of Wisconsin, as the shooter who you just mentioned is, coming in to try to create chaos in the city of Kenosha.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is it your understanding that these are organized groups or somehow spurred by organized groups to move into these kinds of situations?

Josh Kaul:

As you said, the Kenosha County DA is the one prosecuting this case, but I’ve certainly seen reports indicating that there were efforts to organize people online and extremist violence by militia groups or white supremacists is a real issue. IT is — there have been incidents of domestic terrorism. We need to make sure our law enforcement entities, including the federal government, are vigorously investigating those cases and, where appropriate, bringing prosecutions.

Frederica Freyberg:

Josh Kaul, thanks very much.

Josh Kaul:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

Shifting from Kenosha to the Republican National Convention. Last week the president tried to steal the thunder of the DNC by coming to Wisconsin. But Senior Political Reporter Zac Schultz tells us Wisconsin played a very limited role this week.

Andrew Hitt:

Thank you, everybody, for joining us. We sure wish you were here with us in Charlotte.

Zac Schultz:

Like the Democratic Convention the week before, the Republican National Convention was mostly virtual, with the speeches pretaped or presented live from everywhere but the host city of Charlotte.

Andrew Hitt:

We had a number of training sessions.

Zac Schultz:

However, some delegates, like Wisconsin GOP Chairman Andrew Hitt, did attend in person for the purpose of officially nominating Donald Trump for president. Former Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker read the nomination for Mike Pence as vice president.

Scott Walker:

Mr. Chairman, it is my honor to nominate our friend, Michael R. Pence, to serve as the Republican Party’s 2020 candidate for vice president of these United States of America.

Zac Schultz:

Scott Walker was the only Wisconsin politician with a role at the RNC. However, two Wisconsinites did give brief speeches on Tuesday.

Chris Peterson:

My name is Chris Peterson. My husband Gary, our family and I milk 1,000 cows on a dairy farm in Grantsburg, Wisconsin.

John Peterson:

I’m John Peterson, owner of a second generation metal fabrication business called Schuette Metals.

Zac Schultz:

There was no mention of Kenosha police shooting Jacob Blake in the back seven times or of the white vigilante arrested on charges of first degree intentional homicide after he drove from Illinois with a gun and killed two people and injured a third. But Pence did condemn the protestors.

Mike Pence:

So let me be clear. The violence must stop, whether in Minneapolis, Portland or Kenosha.

Zac Schultz:

Reporting from Madison, I’m Zac Schultz for “Here & Now.”

Frederica Freyberg:

As we’ve said, former Republican Governor Scott Walker delivered the nominating speech for vice president Mike Pence. Former Lieutenant Governor Rebecca Kleefisch was not in Charlotte, but was cheering the ticket on from Wisconsin. She joins us now from her home in Concord. Thanks very much for being here.

Rebecca Kleefisch:

Absolutely. Good to see you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Interestingly, the Republican Party presented no new 2020 platform at this convention except to support the president’s “America First” agenda. How would you describe what that is?

Rebecca Kleefisch:

Well, I would say the Americans — or “America First” agenda, Frederica, is about prioritizing our national interests. One of the things the president spoke about last night that I think America frankly needed a good reminder of, is how he has prioritized America on a global scale. I think people start to forget in the midst of some of the cultural dissents that we’ve seen and the coronavirus and COVID-19 health care crisis that al–Baghdadi and Soleimani are dead and that we have a USMCA – United States/Mexico/Canada agreement. We’re bringing manufacturing jobs and agriculture jobs back to the heartland of this country. Those are all things that I think sometimes get rolled to the backs of our minds when we look at the news cycle.

Frederica Freyberg:

There was a lot made, speaking of news cycles, of fact-checkers being kept very busy during this convention. The Washington Post, for one, described the speeches as a “fire hose of false claims and a tsunami of untruths.” So how are voters supposed to separate fact from fiction?

Rebecca Kleefisch:

Well, I think you have to look at the actual data and the actual statistics. The speakers who are on the RNC stage, just like the speakers on the DNC stage, have facts and data that they use in order to build their argument for election. And I am a former journalist, a recovering journalist, and just like you Frederica, we each as journalists choose how we represent facts. What things make it into that first sentence, what things make it into the headline. And I think as rhetoric soars, sometimes facts are there, but then when the journalists choose to put them through a filter, they determine that with a couple of tweaks, things aren’t exactly the same. I’ve seen this time and time again on PolitiFact.

Frederica Freyberg:

I have to move along, but now you’re saying that it’s the fact-checkers that are skewing the facts. But so I actually want to move along to something very, very important as well. The president’s theme of law and order comes through loud and clear. But he really had no specific mention of what happened in Kenosha to Jacob Blake or about the teenage vigilante now charged with murdering two demonstrators. What would you like to say about what has happened in Kenosha, including about that teenage shooter?

Rebecca Kleefisch:

Personally? My heart goes out to Kenosha. I think Julie Jackson, the mother of Jacob Blake, was very eloquent in making the family statement when she asked for peace and she said Jacob would not want this civil unrest in the wake of the shooting. But as a journalist, I find it very disturbing that we see politicians coming out and trying the cop involved in the shooting before the facts have even been fully investigated by our Department of Justice. That’s dangerous behavior in a free country, where we know that you are innocent until proven guilty. And so I think we need to let the facts shake out. We need to pray for Kenosha. We need to be prayerful about the recovery of Jacob Blake, keep a mind’s eye to what his children have seen and be very hopeful about change in the future. But I think one of the most important things that needs to come out of the Kenosha situation is body cameras. It’s going to be very challenging for DOJ to investigate this when Kenosha does not have body cameras and when people are talking about defunding police, but yet they want more accountability and transparency, body cams give you that.

Frederica Freyberg:

I have to ask you about your comment about the teen shooter. What about accountability there?

Rebecca Kleefisch:

Oh, I think that there must be accountability. And you’ve seen, the DA has already issued charges. Once again, the investigation will ensue but I think in this age of social media where everybody is taping things on cell phones, we become judge and jury in our own households on our couches after watching Twitter and Facebook. That’s dangerous behavior. We need to let DOJ do its job.

Frederica Freyberg:

We need to leave it there. Former Lieutenant Governor Rebecca Kleefisch, thanks for taking your time.

Rebecca Kleefisch:

You got it.

Frederica Freyberg:

If Wisconsin is considered a critical battleground in November’s presidential election, how central is the central and northern part of the state toward swinging the election? President Trump carried the 7th Congressional District which encompasses northern Wisconsin, by 20 points in 2016, while winning the state by a razor-thin one percentage point. The slightest swing could matter. We are joined now by someone who knows the 7th District very well. Kevin Hermening is the former Marathon County Republican Party chair. Thank you for joining us.

Kevin Hermening:

Thank you for the invitation.

Frederica Freyberg:

How important is your region to the outcome of this presidential election, in your mind?

Kevin Hermening:

I think the 1% equated to about 52,000 votes if I’m not mistaken. That was statewide in 2016. Marathon County, which is right in the heart of the 7th District, not geographically but certainly population-wise, accounted for 26,000, or half of that differential for the president. It appears by everything that I am seeing across the region as I look at yard signs and apparent enthusiasm, not that the Democrats aren’t enthusiastic about defeating President Trump but the yard signs, the appearances on behalf of the candidates and others have certainly indicated to me that it’s likely to result in another big win for the president here in the Marathon County and central Wisconsin area.

Frederica Freyberg:

As to that razor-thin margin, I want to say it was even less than that, something less than 23,000. So hence our battleground status.

Kevin Hermening:

Yes.

Frederica Freyberg:

You have said that there is no way Joe Biden wins where you are. But what if he even nips into the Republican numbers there?

Kevin Hermening:

Well, that’s a great question, and actually you make an excellent point, because if the Democrats are able to increase their numbers in other parts of the state, it means that Marathon County is going to have to hold its own from last time and perhaps even boost the numbers. So that’s something that former Congressman Sean Duffy was very well-versed on and played a big role in and Congressman Tiffany, newly elected this spring understands that as well. That’s why you’re seeing so much attention being paid here. That’s why there is a local and in fact in some of the areas in the 7th District there are Trump headquarters and staffers who are on the scene trying to turn out the vote and identify those critical undecided voters. They’re the ones who are really going to decide.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, you ran for office before in that area. How has that district changed so vastly over these years?

Kevin Hermening:

It’s very different from the 1980s when I ran for Congress against Congressman Dave Obey, who served for more than 40 years. The reason is it’s so different is that the population has shifted. The population has gotten older. We’ve seen a lot of manufacturing jobs leave the area over the last 35 to almost 40 years now. Perhaps most critically of all, redistricting has played a big role in why it is so clear that the 7th District remains Republican. Again whether we can hold those numbers or not, that’s our goal on behalf of the president.

Frederica Freyberg:

The Democratic Convention showed Joe Biden as empathetic, which the Republican Convention, as you know, also sought to portray in Donald Trump. In your mind, is that the defining character for the next president in these uncertain and tumultuous times?

Kevin Hermening:

Well, I’m not hearing a lot about that as an important or critical issue, at least on the Republican side. The Democrats perhaps are grasping at whatever opportunities they can to paint the president as not being particularly empathetic. But it seems to me that a return to the strong economy earlier this year that the president had presided over played a big role in that, as well as whether or not we can remain a strong presence on the world stage.

Frederica Freyberg:

Kevin Hermening, we need to leave it there. Thanks very much.

Kevin Hermening:

Thank you. Have a great day.

Frederica Freyberg:

You too. Finally tonight, convention insight and election foresight with our “Here & Now” political panel, Bill McCoshen and Scot Ross. Thanks for being here.

Bill McCoshen, Scot Ross:

Thanks for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:

So I’m going to start with you, Bill. How would you grade the conventions in terms of giving a boost to their respective candidates?

Bill McCoshen:

Well, I’d give Democrats a “C.” It was more like a zoom chat room for four days last week. They used mostly Hollywood elites and career politicians and I don’t think any of that resonates with average voters, particularly voters in the state of Wisconsin. I’d give Republicans an “A,” a solid “A” because they had real people, real stories. They were talking languages and to people that care about issues in the state of Wisconsin. They spoke their language so I give them a solid “A” for sure.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about you, Scot?

Scot Ross:

I’d give the democrats an “A-” for talking about issues that actually do really matter to people, whether it’s health care, whether it’s dealing with the pandemic, whether it’s the record unemployment, whether it’s about the criminality of the Trump administration. I think all those things are important to people and Democrats talked about those. On the Republicans, I think on substance in terms of truth, I give them an “F.” I think that’s the lowest grade you can give them. And then on talking about issues that people care about, I’d give them an incomplete. That’s what I’d do. Yeah. That’s the way I’d see it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Has what’s happened in Kenosha kind of overshadowed presidential politics for Wisconsin, Bill?

Bill McCoshen:

I think it’s now driving presidential politics. There was a new poll out this morning that had Donald Trump with a one-point lead in the state of Wisconsin, had him tied in Minnesota and leading in Michigan. So I think Kenosha is going to be a big deal. Here’s the reason, Fred. People in Wisconsin didn’t really relate to what was going on in Seattle or Portland. But when it happens in Kenosha in your own backyard that means something to you. And I think it’s a bad sign for Democrats. They didn’t react soon enough, including our governor, who got excoriated by the Kenosha News editorial board yesterday for his lack of action on this thing. And it will play a factor in the presidential race at least for the next couple weeks, maybe longer.

Frederica Freyberg:

Scot, what do you think about that, a bump for Donald Trump from Kenosha.

Scot Ross:

No, I think the news out of Kenosha is that a Black man, an unarmed Black man was shot seven times by police when he was absolutely no threat. This continues to be a problem. These are why these uprisings are happening. It’s happening because as Jacob Blake’s father said today in Washington D.C., there’s one justice system for white people and there’s one justice system for Black people. Democrats and independents are recognizing that and they’re saying enough is enough. On the other hand, Donald Trump just continues to try and divide and stoke this. He wants to do that to get reelected. I don’t think it’s going to work. I think the people are going to do the right thing.

Frederica Freyberg:

Zac pointed out earlier in this program that Republicans spoke to their upset about the protests and law and order, but not to the shooting by an officer of Jacob Blake or the 17-year-old gunman who allegedly murdered two protesters. How is any of this even partisan? Bill?

Scot Ross:

I think it’s partisan because I don’t think any of the Republicans are willing to even criticize the 17-year-old who shot three people including killing two. I think that’s what the issue is here. The issue is here that we need to be coming together. We are not going to be able to do that with Donald Trump and his cohorts. That’s why it’s partisan.

Frederica Freyberg:

Bill?

Bill McCoshen:

I think more than anything, Fred, this issue needed leadership and it needed it a lot sooner. For the governor to wait until Thursday, four days after the shooting to finally arrive in Kenosha, is inexplicable to me. I worked for a governor who would have been there that night or the next morning. I know Jim Doyle, a Democrat, Scott Walker also would have also been there. So I think the lack of action or reaction from leaders in Wisconsin has caused this thing to get worse than it needed to be.

Frederica Freyberg:

With just about a minute–go ahead.

Scot Ross:

Republicans in the legislature haven’t been to work in 130 days whether it’s the pandemic or this. The fact is that Governor Evers had a package of eight different bills he wants to pass. Robin Vos is calling for a task force. Bill, you know as well as I do, task force is where action goes to die.

Frederica Freyberg:

They’re coming in on Monday.

Bill McCoshen:

They’re coming in on Monday. In a situation like this, the governor has got to be there. He’s got to be meeting with local leaders. He’s got to be meeting with law enforcement. Frankly he should have been meeting with black ministers. This needed action immediately and it didn’t get it.

Frederica Freyberg:

I think we need to leave it there. Thanks very much. This turned out, of course, not to be a super fun conversation, but a very serious one, but we really appreciate your insights. Thanks very much for being here.

Scot Ross:

Thank you.

Bill McCoshen:

Thanks for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:

That is our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a safe weekend.

Announcer:

For more “Here & Now” 2020 election coverage, go to PBS.org and click on news. Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.