Here & Now

Here & Now for April 24, 2020

Announcer:

The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. This week on “Here & Now,” protests against extending the “stay at home” order in Wisconsin. And reaction from Governor Tony Evers in my weekly one-on-one interview. Also an update on the COVID-19 pandemic from State Epidemiologist Dr. Ryan Westergaard. Plus the Badger Bounce Back Plan to reopen Wisconsin. Missy Hughes, Secretary of Wisconsin’s Economic Development Corporation, joins us. That’s “Here & Now” for April 24.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Despite the COVID-19 pandemic, protesters gather at the state Capitol in Madison Friday afternoon, a week after Governor Tony Evers extended Wisconsin’s “safer at home” order until May 26. Governor Evers, this week, refused to grant a protest permit. In violation of that order, protesters still gathered and carried signs rejecting the extended “safer at home” order enacted to slow the spread of the deadly coronavirus. Demonstrators argue they are willing to take the risk in order to protect businesses and prevent further damage to the economy. Also this week, state Republican legislative leaders took their case to the Wisconsin State Supreme Court, challenging the governor’s extension. At the same time, the Wisconsin Tavern League and the Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce, the state’s largest business trade association, presented their plans to get Wisconsin working again. “Here & Now” Senior Political Reporter Zac Schultz explains why so many are willing to risk lives to reopen the economy.

Chris Marsicano:

We’ve been here 55 years.

Zac Schultz:

Chris Marsicano is co-owner of the Village Supper Club in Delavan and he’s been trying to keep his sense of humor through the COVID-19 pandemic.

Chris Marsicano:

Hell must have frozen over because the bars in Wisconsin are closed.

Zac Schultz:

He’s also president of the Tavern League of Wisconsin, representing 5,000 bars across the state. So he’s the face of a movement to reopen Wisconsin’s bars on May 1st, nearly a month before Governor Evers’ new “safer at home” order expires.

Chris Marsicano:

Our goal is to get our people open and to get it open safely.

Zac Schultz:

The Tavern League says they have a plan to open safely, following similar social distancing guidelines and safety protocols that grocery stores and other essential businesses are following.

Chris Marsicano:

I have over six family members on my staff here, so I want to make sure my family’s safe too. We’re not going to do anything to endanger the public, to endanger our employees, to endanger our families. But we can’t survive much longer.

Kurt Bauer:

We’ve got to figure out a way to get people safely back to work. Otherwise we will have an economic crisis that will actually eclipse the public health crisis.

Zac Schultz:

Kurt Bauer is president of Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce, the state’s biggest business lobby. They have their own plan to allow more businesses to reopen when they can do so safely.

Kurt Bauer:

Nobody is suggesting we go back to business as usual right away. This is going to have to be incremental. First and foremost, we have to make sure people are safe. We want to protect lives, but we also have a mandate to protect livelihoods.

Tony Evers:

No one wants to reopen our economy as much as I do, but folks, like I’ve said before, it has to be more like turning a dial than flipping a light switch.

Zac Schultz:

Governor Tony Evers introduced his own plan to reopen the economy called the Badger Bounce Back Plan. The difference is the business community wants a hard date to reopen but the governor’s plan would require the state to have enough tests and personal protective equipment to demonstrate COVID-19 is under control for consecutive 14-day periods.

Tony Evers:

Right now Wisconsin does not meet the criteria the White House established to start reopening our state.

Zac Schultz:

Business leaders understand reopening will lead to more infections, hot spots and likely deaths. Bauer says the goal of “safer at home” was to bend the curve of COVID-19 cases, not avoid deaths altogether.

Kurt Bauer:

That’s basically unrealistic in a global pandemic.

Zac Schultz:

He says COVID-19 outbreaks aren’t that different from other health risks businesses face every day.

Kurt Bauer:

That pertains to agriculture, manufacturing, construction. Those are high-risk sectors of the economy for workplace incidences. Now we’re talking about taking precautions to keep people healthy.

Zac Schultz:

Both Bauer and Marsicano say they understand the governor is in a tough position, but they’re willing to accept the risks and expect their employees are as well.

Chris Marsicano:

It’s a tough call. We’re dealing with so many unknowns with this virus. I mean, I think most of us are flying in the dark here.

Kurt Bauer:

We know that there are going to be flare-ups. That’s unavoidable until we have a cure, until we have a vaccine. We don’t know when that will occur and we can’t wait.

Zac Schultz:

Reporting from Madison, I’m Zac Schultz for “Here & Now.”

Frederica Freyberg:

The new “safer at home” order runs from April 24 until May 26 and does allow for curbside pickup at libraries and golf courses can reopen with new restrictions. For the first time, Governor Tony Evers this week outlined the criteria that must be met before schools and businesses can reopen and showed his frustration with Republicans who look to settle the matter in court. Governor Evers has agreed to join us each week, and earlier I spoke with the governor. Governor, thanks very much for being with us.

Tony Evers:

Thank you much. Good to be back.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, so protests and lawsuits over the extension of the “safer at home” order. In reporting on the Republican suit brought to the Supreme Court, I described you as being livid. What makes you so angry about them seeking the remedy to blocking this order in court?

Tony Evers:

Well, first of all, what frustrates me is that we made a decision to follow the White House and the CDC’s kind of process to determine when we’re ready to open up parts of our economy. So we’re following a Donald Trump model here. And so if that’s what they’re annoyed about, then they need to go talk to Donald Trump. But the bottom line is, it’s a continued attack on the executive branch. They started it with the lame duck session, and they continue to this date. And it would be just a minor irritant if — this will delay things, and this will delay things in a way that I believe actually costs lives and also increase the possibility of us, you know, even furthering down the road our opportunity as a state to open up economically. It’s not necessary. It’s a political power grab, plain and simple. And, frankly, we got a lot of stuff on our plate now. We don’t need political power grab to be inserted into the middle of it.

Frederica Freyberg:

You said that you believe the Supreme Court will listen to science to keep people safe, but what if they agree with the Republican Legislature? What then?

Tony Evers:

Well, I guess it goes through some — it’s their ball game then. They have — they will have the ability to do what they want to do. And it will all be done through administrative rule-making and, frankly, it’s been my observation in the past that that is not something that happens in a day. It happens in weeks and sometimes months, you know, in some cases half a year. So to do this in that fashion just — it doesn’t speed up anything and it creates havoc and I just — I just think the — we are on — we are in a good place. We need to move forward in this state, not battle this out in the Supreme Court.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, Wisconsin is not alone, but our economy is cratering with lost business and lost jobs. State coffers could be gutted. What is your message to the beleaguered people of Wisconsin as new COVID-19 cases and deaths continue?

Tony Evers:

Well, we have a plan. The plan is quite simple. It has the three criteria by which we’re going to be judging whether we are making some progress. We have to do testing. We have to do the contact tracing. All those things have to be in place. The people of Wisconsin have sacrificed a bunch, and I appreciate that. We have to continue to take care of this virus. But at the same time when we have opportunities to open the door a little bit in certain areas to allow businesses to expand and bring back workers, we’re going to do that. If that happens before May 26, let it happen. We are willing to do that. But we have to focus on the virus. We have to get to a point where we’re boxing in the virus, not boxing in people.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, this is your Badger Bounce Back Plan to slowly reopening, and it includes seeing a 14-day decline in positive cases, being able to test 85,000 people a week and deploying 1,000 contact tracers. How far are we or how close are we to meeting those metrics?

Tony Evers:

Well, the metrics around the number of tests, we’re getting close. I think today we had over 10,000 tests. So it’s seven days a week, we’re at 70,000. We know we can increase that. We’re asking our physicians and other care providers to test people that are showing symptoms. I think the lab capacity is overall across the state in pretty good shape. Personal equipment is not so good, although we’re going to receive a large shipment from the federal government. So those pieces, I think, we’re in a pretty good place. But now we’ve had an outbreak in Green Bay with a meat-packing plant. I don’t know the specifics, but I guess it has to do with not having the appropriate things in place there. That will set back that part of the state, simple as that.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your response and reaction to that, if in fact those plants have not been practicing safety measures?

Tony Evers:

Well, shame on them. And shame on their insurers for insuring them. We have a pandemic. And one of the core pieces of that pandemic is to have physical distance between people. And if — I don’t know this, but — and if that physical distances has caused this, then that’s a problem and we’ll have to look at it. Clearly we’re working with the local health officials to see what we should be doing next. We’re spending most of our time, frankly, testing and tracing the folks that have been infected so that we can keep things to a minimum.

Frederica Freyberg:

Aside from that cluster of positive cases in that area, what about the argument that not all places are hit as hard as cities and that those localities should be able to reopen, even now?

Tony Evers:

Yeah. And we look at that regularly. And there’s a swath of counties in the northern part of our state that have very small numbers. Actually, a couple have zero. But that doesn’t mean there’s no virus in that county. Clearly, only — it takes a test to make that happen and takes symptoms to make a test happen, and many people are asymptomatic, so they’re never going to be tested. There’s virus all across the state. But we are willing to look at — as we move forward, if there’s things we can do individually or regionally, we’ll take a look at that.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Governor Tony Evers, thanks very much. Thanks for joining us.

Tony Evers:

Thanks, Frederica. Take care.

Frederica Freyberg:

As of this week, the number of COVID-19 cases in Wisconsin exceeded 5,000, with more than 250 deaths. Is the “safer at home” order working? Are we flattening the curve? Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Those are some of the questions we posed to State Epidemiologist Dr. Ryan Westergaard this week and, doctor, thanks very much for joining us.

Ryan Westergaard:

Thanks for inviting me back.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about those questions? Midweek Wisconsin saw the largest one-day increase in confirmed COVID-19 cases to date. Why is this happening now?

Ryan Westergaard:

Yeah. It’s difficult to tell. The two reasons that could be an explanation is one is that we’re testing more people. And the second is that there’s more transmission in the community. And I think both are partly true. We’re unfortunately seeing additional outbreaks of COVID-19 in congregate living settings and some workplaces. So I think at least part of the numbers are being driven by outbreaks that we’re seeing. At the same time, we are trying to increase testing and getting the word out to providers to test a larger number of people, so that might also be playing a role.

Frederica Freyberg:

So it may be difficult to say given all of that, but how far do you think we are from hitting the so-called peak?

Ryan Westergaard:

It’s really difficult to say. Of course, you never know until you’re past it. But what our curve, what our epidemic curve looks like so far is relatively flat. So we’ve had an average of 150 and we’ve had over 200 cases this week, but for the past week to two weeks, we’ve been at a pretty consistent number of new cases. That’s actually what flattening the curve looks like. So I think that’s evidence of our success, that we’re not seeing a peak necessarily, but we’re seeing a plateau. That’s what we see when a disease epidemic is spread out over time. So it could be, although, like I said, we don’t know and we’re not out of the woods to continue to see more cases, but we might be in the middle of a peak and it’s just taking longer than it would otherwise

Frederica Freyberg:

And so that would suggest that the “safer at home” orders have been working?

Ryan Westergaard:

I think given what we know about how this virus epidemic has worked in a large number of communities where social distancing wasn’t implemented early, is that there’s no question that it’s working. If we projected the number of cases we had in early March and followed that exponential growth model to see what would have been expected if we continued in our normal set of interactions, we would have had many more thousands of cases. So I think the data are pretty clear, using a number of computer modeling strategies that we’ve saved probably well over 1,000 lives by doing the “safe at home” order that we’ve done. It’s really — it’s really without question.

Frederica Freyberg:

As you mentioned, we continue to see these hot spots popping up, like in Green Bay, where so far more than 250 cases are linked to meat processing plants. How concerning are those kinds of clusters?

Ryan Westergaard:

Yeah. It’s terribly concerning because it reinforces what we’ve learned about the virus, that absent really strict precautions on physical distancing or infection control precautions like we do in hospitals with masks and other personal protective equipment, the virus is so highly contagious that when people are in close proximity doing — at the workplace in essential businesses like in food service, a single case or a small number of cases can quickly spread through a community. So it’s very concerning. And I think it calls for the type of containment efforts that we need to really scale up in the coming months, because until we have a vaccine, the risk for these localized outbreaks and the potential for those turning into larger community spread is going to be there. So we have to really focus on containing cases at the individual level by doing these public health strategies like quarantine and isolation.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, there’s new guidance from the state about who should get tested? Who should get tested now?

Ryan Westergaard:

In a perfect world, everyone who has symptoms that could represent COVID-19 which is acute respiratory illness, shortness of breath, cough, sore throat, body aches like the flu, should be tested for COVID-19. Everyone knows we’re not in a perfect world. The reason it’s imperfect is that health systems around the state don’t have similar access to the testing materials. A lot of health care is being done remotely via telehealth, so people are being encouraged to not come into their providers. So right now, there’s sort of a model we have in mind, which is that to really get the best information about the epidemic, we need to test most people with symptoms and probably a subset of people without symptoms if they’re connected to an outbreak investigation. But the reality is is that the health care system is a little bit — not running at its normal state right now because of personal protective equipment shortages and changes in operations to preserve the health care workforce for an expected surge. So it’s turning out that most hospitalized patients with symptoms are being tested right now, but there’s certainly capacity at the laboratory and our goal is to test a large number of people, including most people with symptoms.

Frederica Freyberg:

It has been reported that at least 19 people either voting or poll workers have tested positive since election day. Are you able to tie those cases to in-person voting?

Ryan Westergaard:

We can’t prove that without some pretty sophisticated molecular testing that’s not available routinely. What we’ve learned and what’s common among all cases that get reported to public health is through an interview process there’s a subset of people who may have been exposed because they were in the community associated with voting. Some of those people reported other potential exposures as well. And so at this point, it’s a possibility. We’re concerned about the possibility for future elections that we need to have really robust infection control precautions. And so it’s informed our thinking. But we haven’t been able to prove it conclusively that they’re obtained through the voting process.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. With just about a half a minute left, overall what is your best advice for people right now?

Ryan Westergaard:

I think the advice is hang in there. Everyone should know that we’ve done tremendous good. Many lives have been saved by all the sacrifices we’ve made by staying at home and changing the way that we live and work. It’s going to be a long haul, though. We’re hoping that things are going to be closer to normal in the coming months as we ramp up our public health infrastructure and get closer to a vaccine. But until we have am effective vaccine, I think there’s going to be a lot of changes we need to live with to prevent the spread of the infection.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Dr. Ryan Westergaard. We really appreciate you being with us.

Ryan Westergaard:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

The gradual reopening of the Wisconsin economy is based on several key tracking factors in the COVID-19 pandemic. As the governor has said, it’s more than just flipping a switch. The new normal isn’t anything like we’ve seen before. The Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation will offer advice and guidance to business owners on how to prepare with safety in mind. Secretary and CEO of the WEDC, Missy Hughes, joined us earlier from Viroqua. And, Secretary Hughes, thanks very much for doing so.

Missy Hughes:

Good morning.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you described this week the impacts of COVID-19 on Wisconsin businesses as incredibly devastating and now we see results of the survey out of UW-Oshkosh released this week that showed 35% of businesses polled in Wisconsin say they will be forced to close in the coming months, and that’s just from the impact so far. What is your reaction to that survey?

Missy Hughes:

You know, that survey is part of the data collection that we’re doing to understand the impact. We kind of have three levels for that. One is we’re looking at big data. So we’re looking at what are the consumer transactions that are happening around the state and trying to understand where are we seeing things steady as she goes and real drops off in activity. We’re also using our network of economic developers all around the state to tell us anecdotally what they’re seeing. So the survey is really in line with what we were anticipating and seeing, and it is devastating to just see the drop in economic activity and know that that’s really hitting small businesses in particular.

Frederica Freyberg:

How have federal funds coming into Wisconsin helped small businesses?

Missy Hughes:

So we’ve actually done well in the application process and the approval process for the small business administration loans. We have about $8 billion worth of federal funding headed our way to 43,000 businesses. So that’s about $190,000 per business. As we see the next tranche of federal dollars coming through, we hope to continue the application and approval process. Our small businesses have done well because they have good relationships with their community banks and their credit unions. They’ve been all working extra hard to get those applications in and I anticipate we’ll keep seeing that come through.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is it possibly enough, though? What kind of help would you like to see at the state level in terms of grant programs?

Missy Hughes:

Yeah. I think more is going to be needed across the board. And what we are looking at is an opportunity to target grant funding specifically to help businesses in that moment when they’re reopening their doors. So if we had an ability to give a $2500 grant to a business, they could use that to buy their perishable supplies, maybe to help float payroll for a few days, do some marketing to let people know that they’re open. I’m just looking for that little bit of grease that will help that economic engine restart. But I think it’s definitely — we’re looking under the mattress, we’re looking wherever we can to try and find resources to help the businesses of Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

This greasing the engine to get the economy started again is something that you’re calling “Wisconsin Ready” and what does that entail?

Missy Hughes:

So there’s three parts to “Wisconsin Ready.” One is we talked about the data and getting our information about the impact and what’s happening. And then being there with the businesses to stand open, to reopen their doors. So if you’re a small restaurant or a small retail business, you need to think about what is your consumer expecting when they come in your doors. You know, when will I be cleaning? What do I do in a dressing room at a retail store to make sure that my customers are comfortable? So we are reaching out to businesses to get their thoughts on what are they thinking about, because the businesses are being very proactive about this. Then we’re collecting that information so we can keep sharing it out throughout Wisconsin. The next piece is we talked about helping businesses find resources, whether it’s federal or state level. And then the third part is getting the word out that we’re all doing this together. We all need to be thinking about social distancing together. If you’re a customer walking into a cafe or retail store, you need to be conscious of that employee, think about their safety, think about other folks in the store. That’s how we’re really going to get this economy rolling again is if we’re all being conscious of what we need to do in order to protect ourselves. And then we won’t find ourselves in a place where we’re stepping back. We can keep moving forward.

Frederica Freyberg:

Ahead of that, though, for the businesses that remained open as essential, we have been seeing clusters of cases in places like Green Bay and elsewhere with COVID-19 spreading through plant floors. I’ve read reports of some employees, not necessarily in these plants, but others, saying that they are working elbow to elbow on the line, some of them saying they don’t have protective equipment. So what is WEDC doing about those kinds of conditions right now?

Missy Hughes:

Well, we’ve found ourselves in that conversation a bit because as we were navigating the essential versus nonessential conversation with businesses, we received calls from employees concerned that their business isn’t really essential but they have to go to work or they’re concerned about the workplace conditions. And what we’ve really done is work with employees as best we can, understanding these are tough conversations, to say, “Can you talk to your employer? Can you let them know that you’re concerned about the safety here? You’re concerned about how this is — the workflow on the floor.” And I think employees have been really working with employers to do that. I’ve seen employers shifting their protocols, making sure that they’re doing what they can to have employees safe. A lot of employees are being very flexible and allowing folks to — if you’re not comfortable being there because you have someone at home who’s compromised, employers are being very flexible there, too. So it’s a work in progress as these things kind of develop.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Secretary Missy Hughes, thanks very much for joining us and good luck.

Missy Hughes:

Thank you so much.

Frederica Freyberg:

That is our program for this week. Be sure to join us online throughout the week for updates on the COVID-19 pandemic at PBSwisconsin.org. Then click on the news tab. Also, for ongoing, in-depth coverage on the coronavirus response in Wisconsin, visit our partner news site at WisContext.org. This week a look at lessons learned from Wisconsin’s 1918 pandemic. That’s WisContext.org. Thank you for watching “Here & Now.” Stay well, Wisconsin, and we will see you next week. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.