Here & Now

Here & Now for April 23, 2021

Announcer:

The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Judge:

Find the defendant guilty.

Frederica Freyberg:

Three counts, murder and manslaughter. Three verdicts of guilty for the former Minneapolis police officer now behind bars for the murder of George Floyd. The verdicts sparked immediate reaction from the White House.

Kamala Harris:

Today we feel a sigh of relief.

[cheers and applause]

Frederica Freyberg:

In Milwaukee, celebration as well as resolve.

Woman:

Black lives matter.

Frederica Freyberg:

Resolve to use the guilty verdict to spearhead meaningful police reform, even as state lawmakers acknowledge the progress this week represents.

LaTonya Johnson:

On behalf of African-Americans all over this state, the verdict yesterday was a win.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” the meaning and future implications of the historic court decision on the murder of George Floyd. A national expert on police reform is here. So is Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes. And we’ll hear from the co-chair of the Assembly Task Force on Race, Representative Shelia Stubbs. It’s “Here & Now” for April 23.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Across the country in the moments after the guilty verdicts were read, people took to the streets, this time in peace, with tears of joy. That was the scene in Milwaukee. “Here & Now” reporters Will Kenneally and Murv Seymour were there.

Maria Hamilton:

Today I applaud people in leadership in Minnesota for doing their damn job.

Will Kenneally:

It was a widespread feeling of relief as Wisconsinites heard the news that former officer Derek Chauvin was convicted of murdering George Floyd. Most heard the news while at home.

Adante Jordan:

I was actually at home shaving. I know that with what has happened in past case there was no hope of, you know, believing that there would even be a verdict. So to actually get it and to actually get it on all three is where the joy and the relief comes in.

Will Kenneally:

The relief came from seeing justice done, according to many. That another Black man would not be killed by police without facing a conviction. This pain is familiar in Milwaukee.

Man:

This woman stands in this circle as a stark reminder of why y’all standing here today. We didn’t have eyes on the Dontre Hamilton case. We didn’t have eyes on Dontre Hamilton like the world watched Derek Chauvin.

Will Kenneally:

Dontre Hamilton was shot and killed by Milwaukee Police in 2014. His mother Maria spoke at a rally shortly after the verdict was read.

Maria Hamilton:

We still hurt. There’s thousands of me that have not seen the inside of a courthouse. And we still have to figure out how we going to get up.

Will Kenneally:

She asked those around her to take a step back and ask themselves what they can do to best lift up the community. Others saw the verdict as a teaching moment.

Dee-Dee Davis:

Are you having those conversations? Do your kids get to watch the court trials of George Floyd? Do you explain to them the importance of what just happened today? If you haven’t, it is my job as an educator, as a Black mom, to implore you to do so.

For me, as an educator, it is definitely a teachable moment in how — especially when you look at the justice system, how a verdict of peers, you know, multiracial peers, can change a verdict versus having peers that don’t look like them.

Our kids are not learning at school not to be racist. Our kids are not learning at school make friends with people who don’t look like you.

Will Kenneally:

While the guilty verdict was a celebration for many, it also served as an indication that there’s still work to be done.

Adante Jordan:

This is a definite celebration we celebrate with the Floyd family, but we still think about the other families that did not get theirs and their killers are still back at work, still throughout the community. And so we want to make sure that cases like this continue to happen, where people continue to get the justice that they deserve when unjustly killed by our police department.

Will Kenneally:

Reporting from Milwaukee, I’m Will Kenneally for “Here & Now.”

Woman:

Tell me what democracy looks like.

Crowd:

This is what democracy looks like.

Murv Seymour:

I’m Murv Seymour with details on what people expect now that a guilty verdict is in after this enormous trial.

David Bowen:

We know that folks have been calling for change for quite some time. This should put a fire under everyone that we cannot ignore this issue any longer.

Murv Seymour:

For perspective, we talk with a lawmaker who has continually taken to the streets in support of community activists marching for change.

David Bowen:

Folks in the state have to be accountable. My colleagues in the Legislature and we all must rise to the occasion to work with each other rather than letting the petty squabbles get in the way. Let’s actually do something that will save lives in the state of Wisconsin.

Man:

I’m not a use-of-force expert.

Murv Seymour:

Just this week, a special bipartisan task force of state representatives announced more than a dozen recommendations on creating statewide standards for policing that includes things like forcing officers to intervene if they see another one using excessive force and making it criminal if they don’t. Stronger whistleblower protection for officers who report witnessing excessive force. And a statewide ban on chokeholds and what is considered a chokehold. They also recommend body cameras for all cops statewide and psychological evaluations for every officer before they’re even hired.

Tom Barrett:

There are people in positions of authority.

Murv Seymour:

Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett says it’s clear. Changes in protecting his city must come with new approaches and accountability, improved enforcement and increased respect for the community. He says the end of the Chauvin trial is not the end of problems in policing.

Tom Barrett:

This is not the conclusion of anything. The fight for racial justice, the fight for fair policing, the fight for community involvement has to continue. It will continue. Because we continue to see too many people dying at the hands of police officers throughout this nation. And that has to change.

[chanting]

Murv Seymour:

So how do social justice protests in Kenosha, Madison, Milwaukee and other parts of the state effect actual changes how people of color are policed and protected? Listen to this Milwaukee protestor.

Do you think your presence here is going to have an effect on policing at all?

Shaei:

Yeah, most definitely. I mean we all have a voice. And when we come together that just makes one gigantic, unified voice. And so I most definitely believe that I as an individual coming together with other individuals can — will most definitely make a change.

Man:

The people, united, will never be divided.

David Bowen:

The murder of George Floyd sparked the whole country and the world to engage in activism.

Woman:

Black lives matter.

David Bowen:

The most that we’ve seen since the Civil Rights Movement of the ’60s. You ask them if protesting works.

[chanting]

Shaei:

It’s a small step forward but it’s still a step forward.

David Bowen:

We need to embrace reform. It’s time for us to be very creative, think outside of the box.

Murv Seymour:

Reporting for “Here & Now” I’m Murv Seymour.

Frederica Freyberg:

As you saw, that was Murv Seymour reporting. He joins the “Here & Now” news team with a beat focusing on issues of racial justice. And Will Kenneally recently joined the reporting staff of “Here & Now” after a tireless year as digital editor. This week Governor Tony Evers signed an executive order directing state law enforcement including the State Patrol, Capitol Police and DNR wardens to review and update their use-of-force policies. And the order specifies that deadly force, including chokeholds, be used only as a last resort. It also calls for officers to employ de-escalation techniques and that they should intervene to stop excessive force by another officer. Following the conviction of Derek Chauvin, the Wisconsin Lieutenant Governor said he hopes the verdict ushers in a new era and that we “all deserve better.” Mandela Barnes joins us now from Madison. Lt. Governor, thanks for being here.

Mandela Barnes:

Thank you so much for having me today.

Frederica Freyberg:

When the verdict came down, you said, “It’s an amazing thing, the idea of justice can be cause for celebration.” What are your concerns that some people will consider the Chauvin conviction a one-and-done and say, see, the system works and just leave it there?

Mandela Barnes:

Yeah. Yeah. I certainly don’t want to look at this as an overall victory. This is accountability in one instance. As we know, justice would be George Floyd still living and breathing today. And I also don’t want people to get complacent and think that the movement has reached its peak. I don’t want people to think that this is the culmination of a yearlong of organizing and demonstrating because it’s absolutely not that. We have to make sure that there are more instances of accountability like this so that we can be on the path to true justice. There are so many communities, so many families and individuals who didn’t even get to see what happened or didn’t even realize the accountability that we saw earlier this week with Derek Chauvin, so many more instances even here in Wisconsin, that we need to make sure that we are truly on the path to achieving justice.

Frederica Freyberg:

Meanwhile, as we just detailed, the governor signed an executive order directing state law enforcement agencies on use-of-force. How do you regard that directive? Does it go far enough?

Mandela Barnes:

Well, I think that we are doing what we can at the state level. As I’ve said many times before, we need a coordinated approach. We need to make sure that it is local, state and federal government doing the right thing to make sure that policing in our communities is held to a standard, a certain standard, a much higher standard than we see now. At the state level with our law enforcement agencies, the governor is taking the necessary step, a step that he is able to take right now. As we see, the Legislature has decided to not act. The governor introduced a — released a package of legislation last year and it’s still sitting there. They have yet to take it up. And so with a Legislature that chooses to ignore the reality of so many people in our state, so many Americans, the governor is taking that step to make sure that we do exactly what we can do with our law enforcement agencies.

Frederica Freyberg:

And yet are things different today? Could there be new momentum?

Mandela Barnes:

Well, absolutely. I think there should be new momentum. I think we should turn the page, like I said, to a new era where we should not have to sit on pins and needles after watching a video of a man killed and wondering which way the verdict is going to go. I think that’s probably one of the most astounding parts about all of this, is we still felt — I don’t mean just we as Black people, I mean we as the people in America still sat with baited breath as the verdict was read aloud not knowing which way it would go regardless of the fact that we saw this video. I think the fact that people are celebrating justice, and this isn’t an indictment of people who are celebrating the fact that there was a guilty verdict, this is an indictment on the system that has denied justice to communities for so long.

Frederica Freyberg:

Given the bipartisan makeup of the Task Force on Racial Disparities, the Speaker’s Task Force, what are your expectations that its recommendations will result in bills that the governor would sign into law?

Mandela Barnes:

I think that speaks a little bit more to, you know, the lackluster, you know, nature of the task force. We presented the Assembly and the Senate, we presented the Legislature with a package of bills. And if they thought there were issues, it should have been debated on the Assembly floor and on the Senate floor. I think that even though there is this Racial Disparities Task Force, the fact is there are members that represent racial and ethnic minority groups in the Legislature. There is a Legislative Black Caucus. I bring this point up all the time because it feels like the leadership of the majority party in the Legislature has chosen to ignore those Black lawmakers who’ve already introduced bills. And even white lawmakers who have introduced bills for police accountability. I think as we’ve said before, this is a delay tactic so they don’t have to do much. Bills did not come out of this task force. Some recommendations did but if they were truly committed to the work, if the speaker really wanted to see this through, there would have been legislation that came as a result of the work of this task force.

Frederica Freyberg:

We’ll see where that goes. Lieutenant governor, thanks very much for joining us.

Mandela Barnes:

Thank you so much for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

If anyone knows the tension between policing and race it’s our next guest, the former Madison police chief, in law enforcement for more than 35 years, a consultant for the U.S. Justice Department on community and police relations and the expert who upheld the decision to not charge the Kenosha police officer who shot Jacob Blake. Noble Wray says he advocates for police and for police reform. We get his take on the Derek Chauvin verdict and what comes next. Noble Wray joins us from Madison. Chief, thanks very much for being here.

Noble Wray:

Thank you. I appreciate the invitation.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what was your reaction to the Chauvin `verdict, both as a member of law enforcement and from a personal standpoint?

Noble Wray:

From a personal standpoint, one of the things that jumped out as I watched that were the citizens that were observing what was going on. And from their perspective, they were not in any way, shape or form being adversarial. They were just describing how they felt, what was actually happening. And I thought that was something that was missed in this. They really were citizens that cared about George Floyd and I thought that that was missed in the whole trial and what was going on.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what was it like from both perspectives, to hear the testimony and repeatedly see the video of the officer’s actions that resulted in the officer’s murder conviction?

Noble Wray:

This was a no-brainer from the beginning. I thought and many in law enforcement thought that this was something that was clearly an excessive force case. It was nine minutes and so many seconds. This was something that I think most people understood straight from the gate. And you didn’t have to be a law enforcement expert to be able to determine that this was an indictment on humanity.

Frederica Freyberg:

So with 37 years in law enforcement then, would you describe what happened to George Floyd as an outlier in police practice or an example of all too common use-of-force, especially against people of color?

Noble Wray:

I really think that these cases should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis because they’re so complex. The other thing that I think it’s important for people to recognize is the framework in which the Supreme Court has laid this out, objectively reasonable, that I don’t think we’re going to get different results and I think the public expects something different. But we’re not going to get different results when it’s framed out based upon how the Supreme Court has laid this out, this objectively reasonable standard.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what can be done about that, that objective reasonableness standard? It kind of depends, right, on who you’re calling objective to meet that threshold? And what do you do about that if you are trying to implement reform?

Noble Wray:

The reality is although we refer to it as being objective and reasonable, because you’re dealing with someone’s judgment, his subjectivity is always here. And so as long as we are judging this, you will always have a subjective part of the analysis that will take place here. And I don’t think people realize that. It is what a reasonable officer would do under certain circumstances. And I think we all understand that. But there’s still a level of subjectivity that we have to account for.

Frederica Freyberg:

As to that, have strides been made in mitigating implicit basis wherein when people, particularly law enforcement, see Black people, they see a threat?

Noble Wray:

Yeah. I mean, the research is out there. I mean, there is a Black threat implicit bias. There’s data, there’s research, there’s empirical information out there that would show. Here’s the thing in terms of the Black threat implicit bias, many police officers right now start to pull back, because they don’t want to be the CNN, the Fox News, the social media example. So they are pulling back on some of the activities and actions that they would take, both in the area of use-of-force as well as the work that they do.

Frederica Freyberg:

So that would be regarded, I trust, as a good thing.

Noble Wray:

In some respects, it’s a good thing. In some respects, it’s not. Because proactive police, engaging with community, talking to people, explaining what you’re doing, engaging with community is the heart and soul of community policing. So if we’ve got police officers that are pulling back, they’re not engaging, that’s the downside. The part in this where I think officers are thinking through this one is the use-of-force. You know, how do I approach this? Should I slow down? Should I create distance? All of those things are critically important for police officers not to engage in uses of force.

Frederica Freyberg:

You said at the conclusion of your Jacob Blake review that the policing field must continue to focus on the sanctity of human life in dealing with deadly force. How does the policing field get there and stay the focus on the sanctity of human life?

Noble Wray:

I don’t think, Frederica, that we have pushed hard enough on, you know, this idea that we have to have, you know, firearms as part of ending this. I really don’t. The Second Amendment is something that is guaranteed to citizens. It is not guaranteed to police officers. We should be pushing harder as a profession, that we can stop a human being without taking a life. That is so critically important. I don’t think as a profession, I think we fail in that arena.

Frederica Freyberg:

Noble Wray, thank you very much. Thank you for joining us.

Noble Wray:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

As you heard earlier, a group of lawmakers, law enforcement and community leaders formed after the shooting of Jacob Blake released a final report of 17 recommendations this week for changes to police practices in Wisconsin. Earlier this week, Marisa Wojcik spoke with Representative Shelia Stubbs, co-chair of the Speaker’s Task Force on Racial Disparities, which led the work on the proposals.

Marisa Wojcik:

I just want to start by asking you what was your reaction when the guilty verdict came down?

Shelia Stubbs:

I cried, because for so long you watch so many families go through this criminal justice system and we never feel like there is any sight of justice. And, you know, giving so much information and still feeling like no matter what’s been given, no matter how much evidence it is, the community always feel like there’s no justice. And so yesterday it was first important for me to process that Mr. George Floyd should be alive today. And, you know, my goal is not just to hold police officers accountable, but to ensure police violence does not continue to impact any community. But in addition it was a moment to literally take a deep breath and process what happened.

Marisa Wojcik:

How has the progression of this past year and specifically the trial influenced the work of the task force and of the subcommittee on law enforcement policies and standards?

Shelia Stubbs:

Well, what’s most important is to make sure that protestors and community would be brought in that space, our pastors, our law enforcement experts, our community activists would be able to come in that space and really bring truth to the reality. So as we’ve done our work for seven months, we’ve been together when the verdict of the Jacob Blake case happened. Our task force continued to meet during the verdict of the Breonna Taylor case and our task force had just completed our work an hour before the verdict in the George Floyd case. These are such huge national tragedies that have happened and the pressure I felt when we’d have to come in the room. You would see community activ– I have been out protesting. I have to come in that room as a chairperson. But it’s important that I take what I hear in the streets and the policies and the demand and come in that room and craft legislation that is meaningful. So it was important to hear what community has been saying. Number one is that enough is enough.

Marisa Wojcik:

Quite frankly, are these issues difficult to discuss with people who have not lived the experience of being Black in America and in Wisconsin?

Shelia Stubbs:

I think it’s a tunnel vision. It’s not hard for me to talk to anyone. But I think what was important is to listen to communities of color that are impacted. Listen to validators or leaders or influencers in the community say here’s the reality. I don’t think oftentimes law enforcement get a chance to have that conversation. The conversations they have with community is always after a major unrest or after something’s happened. But what if those conversations had taken place before, prior to those incidents. It was not hard but I think it was important for every task force member to speak truth to whatever the issue was. I think you heard some really, really personal conversation which is you don’t understand what it’s like to be in a car driving down the street Black and your cell phone is mistaken as a gun. Like you don’t understand because you’re white. And so we weren’t looking for empathy. We were looking at I can begin to understand why this is an issue, why they’re pressing on certain reforms, why is that necessary for communities of color. In that room, we had members crying at different times through the process. We had members yelling at different times. We had members need to get up and stretch and walk out and come back in. What you saw in that room was reality. This is hard work. So what I want you to really understand is it took the task force, members from the community to come into the Capitol and work with law enforcement and two elected officials to work on a bipartisan piece of legislation in order to move any police reforms across the state of Wisconsin.

Marisa Wojcik:

Do you see challenges ahead as this — as these recommendations do move towards the Legislature, a Republican-controlled Legislature?

Shelia Stubbs:

Absolutely. So that’s important because the Republicans are in control of both houses and our governor is a Democratic governor. But because we worked bipartisan with community, why on earth would our colleagues not want to accept recommendations from community that has spent seven months becoming experts in these topics and in these scenarios. And, remember, this legislation was drafted with people of color in that room. Who would argue with that?

Frederica Freyberg:

The task force hopes the recommendations will be introduced as legislative bills in May. Marisa Wojcik’s complete interview with Representative Stubbs as well as continuing coverage of Wisconsin police reform efforts can be found online at PBSwisconsin.org and then by clicking on the news page. And that is our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.