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The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

The work ahead for clerks, after the final ruling on redistricting. Ukrainian families separated stay connected and a pandemic rule restricting immigration is expected to soon be lifted.

I’m Frederica Freyberg, tonight on “Here & Now,” Congressmen Tom Tiffany and Mark Pocan offer opposing views on rescinding a Trump era immigration policy. Displaced Ukrainians make the best of being in Wisconsin and a county clerk explains preparation for Wisconsin’s next elections. It’s Here & Now for April 22.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

New COVID 19 cases are steadily rising again in Wisconsin, and across the country. The new climb has prompted Milwaukee Public Schools to reinstate its mask requirement. This as a federal judge this week removed the nationwide mask mandate for all public transportation. Now it is up to individual cities, counties, and airlines to decide if passengers should be required to mask up to prevent the spread of COVID 19. And another pandemic-driven federal policy is set to end. Immigration restrictions that effectively close the U.S. border with Mexico to incoming migrants. The policy, known as Title 42, allows the Centers for Disease Control to severely limit immigration, even for those seeking asylum to prevent the spread of disease. Put in place by former president Donald Trump, it is now set to end under Joe Biden. Our first guest tonight recently visited the southern border and wants the restriction to remain in place. Republican Congressman Tom Tiffany from Wisconsin’s 7th congressional district joins us from Wausau. Thanks very much for being here.

Tom Tiffany:

It’s good to join you, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you traveled to the southern U.S. border with Mexico this month. And wanted to talk with us about it. Why?

Tom Tiffany:

Actually just this week, I went down to the Yuma sector, and I think the thing that was striking is that I was there about two years ago under the previous administration. We saw with local, state, and federal officials they were working together quite well and really had made progress in controlling the number of people that are coming into the country illegally. Now, as you go to places like Yuma, you see it’s really very much out of control at this point. And people coming into the country that just really almost willy nilly. We’re seeing got-aways that exceed in the hundreds of thousands besides the two million people that came in illegally in 2021. And if Title 42 goes away, it is going to be a tidal wave because there are thousands of migrants just waiting on the other side of the border, and the cartels in Mexico are ready to deliver them to the United States.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why should the COVID public health policy that closed the border to asylum seekers though, be maintained when everything else is opened up?

Tom Tiffany:

You know you look at the Biden administration is going to contest the mask mandate being struck down in courts. They’re going to contest it. Yet so they want the mask mandates on airplanes, why would they not want to keep COVID restrictions in place for those that are trying to enter our country illegally. I think it’s inconsistent on the part of the administration.

Frederica Freyberg:

We know immigration is a key political focus of Republicans but is the party trading on fear and dislike of people from other countries, particularly Central America or Mexico?

Tom Tiffany:

I would urge people to go down to the southern border and see really what’s happening and talk to the border patrol, what’s going on. Just this morning, a border patrol agent drown in the Rio Grande trying to save someone coming across the border illegally. We’re seeing these types of things happen regularly. This has huge national security concerns, besides the two million people that came in illegally last year, there were hundreds of thousands of got-aways. Are some of those terrorists? Do they have terror backgrounds? That’s really of a great concern for those that are concerned about national security. But on top of that, you have all the drugs that are flowing in. The amount of methamphetamine, and fentanyl that is pouring into our country, that has increased exponentially here since January 20 of 2021 when President Biden took the restrictions off from the southern border, in particular “Remain in Mexico.” It’s killing people throughout America. And all you have to do is talk to your local sheriffs here in Wisconsin and they’ll tell you the stories about the fentanyl and methamphetamine deaths that are happening here in our state.

Frederica Freyberg:

It’s not all people who are members of a drug cartel or drug traffickers though. I mean, we understand that many of these people seeking asylum in the United States are coming from very difficult circumstances in Central America. What would you do if you were trying to protect yourself or our family from poverty or crime in your home country?

Tom Tiffany:

Well, when I was in Yuma this week, I happened to see some people just coming across the Colorado River and giving themselves up to the border patrol to be processed. To be sent into America, via a bus and then airplane to various states around the country. And I saw a man from India. A man from Columbia, amongst others and they were dressed just like Americans. They were not — I mean you could tell it was not legitimate asylum seekers. All you have to do is go back to “Remain in Mexico,” which was in place before January 20, of 2021. I believe it was about 95% of the asylum seekers who had to remain in Mexico to have their hearing held were declined because they were not legitimate asylees. When I was down in Panama a year ago, we heard from many Haitians and Cubans that they had been living in countries like Chile and Brazil for years. And we asked them why would you come now? Because the border is open. Their lives were okay at that point. They’re not legitimate asylum seekers. We should only let those in that have a legitimate claim.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about Ukrainians now fleeing the war? Do you welcome them?

Tom Tiffany:

If you go back to Afghanistan last August, I was very critical of the administration and how they handled that. We should not — most of those people did not go through the special immigrant vias process to be able to process them for terror backgrounds. I would say the same in regards to the Ukrainians. We should not simply be allowing people to come in on parole because that’s what Secretary Mayorkas is doing. He’s using an authority called parole. Parole is meant to be used on an individual basis. He is taking masses of people, like from Afghanistan, like Ukraine and saying we’re just going to pass you into America via parole. Parole not meant to be used that way. Furthermore, if you take those people away from Europe, just like we took the people out of Afghanistan, many of them would resettle back into their home countries once things settled down. This may be the best thing that Vladimir Putin wants, is for the Ukrainians to abandon their homeland and go to another country halfway across the world with very little prospect of them coming back to the Ukraine.

Frederica Freyberg:

So is your answer to that no? That you are not welcoming Ukrainians?

Tom Tiffany:

If they have a legitimate claim, but they need to be done on an individual basis. No different than the Afghans and others that request this. If you are going to use parole, it is in the law that it’s done on an individual basis, not a mass settlement like the administration is using. They’re distorting the law at this point.

Frederica Freyberg:

We need to leave it there. Thank you. Our time is up. Congressman Tiffany, thanks very much.

Tom Tiffany:

Thanks for having me on tonight.

Frederica Freyberg:

On the other side, Democratic Congressman Mark Pocan from Wisconsin’s 2nd congressional district joins us from Madison. Thanks for being here.

Mark Pocan:

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

In a letter to the CDC you signed with other House Democrats, you called Title 42, which has been in place for two years and closed the borders due to COVID-19, illegal. Why?

Mark Pocan:

Well, first of all, most of what happened in this area, under Donald Trump wasn’t done for health concerns. We know that. He mishandled COVID in every possible way. It was done as just another way to stop people who might be legitimately coming to this country to seek asylum. There’s a process we’re supposed to follow, and this allowed you not to have that process. That’s the real problem with it. I know the Republicans politically love to talk about this as one of their top three hits that they’re putting out for the campaign. But I can tell you that people in the district don’t reach out to us about the southern border as must as they do making sure they get their mail delivered, for example. On this particular issue though, because it was a fake issue by the Trump administration, about COVID, we should then be smarter and be back to the position that we’re dealing with those issues as asylum cases. And even more important at some point, Frederica, we need to be doing some resources and some help in the countries that people are coming from. If we give people a reason not to leave the country they’re in, then this political argument that some people like to have will become even less relevant than it even is to people in my district.

Frederica Freyberg:

Interestingly, though, some Democrats are even hedging on rescinding Title 42, what is your comment on that?

Mark Pocan:

Yeah, again, I can’t speak for other folks. I can just tell you that I was in Congress during this period. We saw how it was misused. And it’s time that people have legitimate asylum requests, we go back to being that country that legitimately looks at those.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you think that Ukrainian people fleeing war should be given preferential treatment to those fleeing poverty and crime of which we speak?

Mark Pocan:

I don’t know about preferential treatment. I think what we need to do is make sure that we have a system set up to take refugees again. In south central Wisconsin, under the Trump administration, I think every single agency closed down except for Jewish Social Services and they stayed open at a loss to their operation because of how we changed policies during that administration. We’ve always been a country that’s had our arms open for refugees for legitimate purposes. I don’t think anyone thinks someone coming from Ukraine right now as a refugee is not legitimate. We should be making sure we are allowing folks into this country like we always have and that we have the support of agencies fortunately that we do have in south central Wisconsin to help those families find places.

Frederica Freyberg:

Speaking of Ukraine, what is your response in reaction to what is going on there right now?

Mark Pocan:

It’s horrific every day to watch what’s happening, right? Vladimir Putin has proven a couple of things. One, that Russia is not the superpower that it pretends to be and Vladimir Putin certainly isn’t the leader that he needs to be. He’s an autocrat, and I think he’s an autocrat who is losing a grip on where he’s at and where Russia’s at. Because of it, they’re where they are in the war. When Ukraine is able to almost out-muscle, so to speak, in the situation on the ground right now, that tells you a lot. I think, we need to get resolution so we can stop the bombing and the deaths that are happening in Ukraine. And then go after Vladimir Putin for the crimes that he has committed by going into the sovereign nation as he has. I think we’re providing everything we can, and I know the president is going to be asking for more when we get back. I believe next week. And we need to continue to do anything we can do to support the Ukrainian people.

Frederica Freyberg:

On the COVID front, people no longer need to wear masks on airplanes and all of these measures are being loosened or eliminated. And yet the numbers are ticking up in Wisconsin also. What can you say to constituents who might be a little confused about what is going on with this?

Mark Pocan:

I don’t blame them. I am a little confused at times on exactly where we are with COVID. The problem is a lot of people think they’ve decided that COVID is over. I think COVID will tell us when it’s over. The good news is from people I respect who are the scientists and doctors in this area, it does look like omicron and the new variant of omicron are pushing out completely the worst parts of COVID. And this may be that stage where this becomes a more mild disease and we can move on and we won’t have the deaths and hospitals filling up like they did for the first several years of COVID. But again, we need to follow the science a little bit. I know when I fly to Washington, I’m going to wear a mask because I don’t want to 1) get someone sick. I have a lot of access with people, and I could be a carrier and I don’t want to get others sick. And I also don’t want to get sick from others. I think that’s still a common courtesy. People are going to have to do what they are the most comfortable with. But I still am going to look to the experts on this. And I hope we really are in this final stage where it turns out to be much less severe. More contagious but less severe. And it’ll be probably more like the flu. But I am not 100% sure that’s where we are at. It looks like that is where we’re going.

Frederica Freyberg:

With just less than a minute left, I want to get your take on last week’s Wisconsin Supreme Court ruling on the legislative maps and how they ruled on that.

Mark Pocan:

Yeah. You know I will tell you, if there are two things I could change that would fix just about every other issue, one is you stop gerrymandering, whether by Democrats or Republicans and quit having politicians pick their voters rather than the other way around. We have that problem in Wisconsin. And two, change how we finance campaigns. When you allow billionaires and large donors to have more of a voice in the campaign process than people who are your constituents, we’ve got a system that ultimately is going to hit a wall on democracy and cause real problems. I am very concerned. This is always around as an issue but we find new ways that billionaires have found ways to put a million dollars into a primary in various races around the country. I can tell you that’s more than most candidates raise for their own primary. We gotta turn those things around or we’re going to have some serious issues in Wisconsin. That was a great case of the gerrymandering problem only continuing to exacerbate our problems in the state legislature.

Frederica Freyberg:

Mark Pocan, thanks very much.

Mark Pocan:

Sure. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Also this week, Ukrainians who arrived in the U.S. by April 11, fleeing the war and Russian violence, are eligible for temporary protected status, shielding them from deportation, and granting permission to work and access services. This is good news for a Ukrainian mother now in Wisconsin with her daughter, finding refuge, if not relief. Marisa Wojcik reports.

Marisa Wojcik:

Varvara Druzhyna is like any other six-year-old girl. Every morning she gets ready for school with the help of her parents. But Varvara has only had this particular routine for about two months. Ever since she and her mother escaped Ukraine. They came to Madison to stay with friends.

Man:

We lost all control. Varvara’s in charge.

Marisa Wojcik:

The mother, Anna Mykhailova, video calls her husband Sasha, Varvara’s father, back in Ukraine every morning. And same as if he were here with them, accompanies Varvara and Anna on the half mile walk to school.

Anna Mykhailova:

I have perfect life. I have everything. I have family. I have husband. I have perfect, best daughter.

Woman:

Have a good day, kiddo.

Anna Mykhailova:

I couldn’t accept this new reality. It’s like maybe a dream or

Woman:

Nightmare.

Anna Mykhailova:

Nightmare. The Russian army came. It was forced decision. And to — we can’t decide by ourselves what we would do, where we will live, how we will live. They decided for us.

Marisa Wojcik:

What was it like making that decision? Okay, we need to leave, and figuring out how you were going to leave?

Anna Mykhailova:

My husband he asked every day. You should leave. You should leave, please. You should leave. I saw picture of a dead girl on internet. And she was the same age like my Varvara. And I thought it could be my kid too.

Marisa Wojcik:

They made it to the U.S. on March 3rd. What did you feel when you landed in the United States?

Anna Mykhailova:

Guilty.

Marisa Wojcik:

Why?

Anna Mykhailova:

Because I am safe. But all my family, not. They have stayed in Ukraine.

Marisa Wojcik:

More than anything, Anna wants to go home.

Anna Mykhailova:

And I am here only because of Varvara. I think if I didn’t have Varvara, I would be in Ukraine with my husband, with all my family.

Marisa Wojcik:

But she’s also seeing things through her young daughter’s eyes.

Anna Mykhailova:

Our Polish friends, they ask if she missed home and she said, yes, I miss home. But I want to live too. To have real life.

Marisa Wojcik:

Anna’s Russian relatives refuse to believe this reality.

Anna Mykhailova:

I have relatives in Russia, in Rostov. And they didn’t believe. They didn’t believe me. I sent pictures from my apartment. When it will touch them personally, I think they will wake up.

Marisa Wojcik:

Without knowing the future, Anna endures. What brings you joy?

Anna Mykhailova:

Good news from home. Only good news.

Marisa Wojcik:

Her husband comforts her from inside the war zone.

Anna Mykhailova:

Yeah. I’m okay. I’m okay. But I hear Bubba. Sasha, Sasha. Someone close the door. I think whole world like united because of Ukraine.

Marisa Wojcik:

She fears the world will soon forget Ukraine.

Anna Mykhailova:

I am afraid that it’ll be everyday news. I had life. I had everything, and now we have nothing.

Marisa Wojcik:

What does victory mean to you?

Anna Mykhailova:

We will free again.

Marisa Wojcik:

For “Here & Now,” I’m Marisa Wojcik in Madison.

Frederica Freyberg:

The ruling a week ago from the Wisconsin Supreme Court to side with Republican redistricting maps came down as the high court simply ran out of time. Now, the state’s clerks have to pick up the slack and adjust for things like wards being split apart. La Crosse County clerk Ginny Dankmeyer joins us to describe more. Thanks very much for being here.

Ginny Dankmeyer:

Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, what are the practical implications for election clerks of the new maps that the Wisconsin Supreme Court adopted a week ago.

Ginny Dankmeyer:

What we have to do at this point is get them into WiscVote so we can let the voters know what districts they are in. More importantly so they know who their constituents are. Who the people are circulating papers And then on our end, we have to prepare. We have elections coming up this fall. We have ballots we need to prepare for. The August ballots have to be out at the end of the June. So we need to see where these ward lines are. We need to find out what ward are split. Do municipalities have to go back and create new ward lines, pass new resolutions. It’s a lot of work on our end to make sure everything’s finalized so we can get these ballots ready for the fall elections.

Frederica Freyberg:

A lot of work. How different are the maps drawn by Governor Evers from the maps drawn by the Republicans in the legislature?

Ginny Dankmeyer:

I really think that varies based on the districts and the areas you lived in. For La Crosse County they didn’t vary too much. I believe with the GOP maps we gained one Assembly district and a Senate district. Whereas if we kept the Evers map, we would have had the same Assembly districts. We would have added one to the south. For us, the changes were very minimal. They followed the municipal lines for us. It came through pretty good for us. I think no matter map you went with; it would have been easy for us to keep moving forward in preparing for the fall elections.

Frederica Freyberg:

So if the legislature’s maps were adopted under the ‘least change’ approach to the old maps which they were. Do you think that reduces the amount of work? Could it have been more different?

Ginny Dankmeyer:

I definitely think there were probably some maps out there that could have caused a lot more work. If you’re splitting municipalities down the middle. If you’re splitting wards all over. That’s a lot more work on our end. That’s a lot more work for the municipalities to get those new wards listed and it’s a lot confusion at polling place. Instead of an entire municipality being one Assembly district, now parts of it will be this Assembly district, parts are going to be here. You’re going to have multiple ballot styles, making sure the poll workers are giving out correct ballot styles. And it’s clean if we follow the ward lines, the municipal lines, and make it simpler for the voters and the poll workers more importantly.

Frederica Freyberg:

So how would you describe the roller coaster of redistricting decisions for clerks.

Ginny Dankmeyer:

It’s been a fun ride. All we can do is tighten our seat belts and go with it. We don’t have a lot of say in it. We just have to sit back and wait until the decisions are made Once the decisions are made, then have to move forward and get done what we have to get done. It’s nothing new for us. There’s a lot of times new laws that are enacted days, weeks before elections. And we just go with it. I think you have to be prepared for that. If you are a clerk, whether municipal county clerk, changes are coming and we’re going to figure out what those changes and we’re going to move forward. That’s all we can really do about it.

Frederica Freyberg:

We talked about voters, but what about for candidates now able to gather signatures to run for office. Are clerks fielding questions from them?

Ginny Dankmeyer:

We’re fielding questions from any officer or any candidate that’s going to be filed in our office. A lot of the Assembly, the Senate congressionals, they’re following — filing papers with the elections commission. They’ll be getting questions and answers through them. Luckily for us, our constitutional officers are up this fall. It’s the entire county so there’s not a lot of lines to deal that we have to deal with. They know it’s within the county, they can circulate their papers. It was a big decision because on April 15th is when they could start circulating their papers, and if you delayed that, that was less time for them to get their signatures needed to get their name on the ballot.

Frederica Freyberg:

Right at the last minute. So heading into 2022 elections, has the abuse of clerks resulting from the tumult of the 2020 election stopped or lessened?

Ginny Dankmeyer:

I think it’s lessened a little bit. There’s still groups out there, still people out there, that want to kind of attack what we’re doing, and challenge that we’re not secure, we’re doing this or that. I think a lot of people are starting to understand how this works. We’re doing as much outreach we can to the public on this is how secure elections are, this is what we do, and hope people can start to understand it. We’re always open to questions. I am always open to do presentations to help the people understand what we’re doing to make sure these elections are secure, they’re with the outmost integrity, and people can trust when they go to the polls and vote that their ballot is going to be counted.

Frederica Freyberg:

And what about changes around voting rules on such things as ballot drop boxes and other procedures that have been the subject of investigations and vitriol. How are clerks keeping up with those changing rules?

Ginny Dankmeyer:

That’s just like everything else. February election, you could use drop boxes. April election, you couldn’t. We work with our clerks to make sure they get that information out. We did media releases to all of the public. I did as much interviews as we could. Let the papers know, the TV stations, know that the drop boxes are not allowed. And the clerks put notes on the drop boxes to let people know you can’t be using these. It was just one of those changes we work with as they come along, and deal with it and move forward and try to get as much education as we can to the voters out there so they know what the new laws are.

Frederica Freyberg:

Thank you very much and thank you for your work, Ginny Dankmeyer.

Ginny Dankmeyer:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website PBSwisconsin.org and click on the news tab. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.