Announcer:

The following program is part of our “Here and Now” 2018 Wisconsin Vote election coverage.

Frederica Freyberg:

I'm Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” should Lake Michigan water be diverted for industrial use at the Foxconn plant? Goodbye Boston Store. We’ll consider the impact of the Bon-Ton layoffs in Wisconsin. And while the week ended with mild temps, later in the program a look at what the late-season snowfall means to farmers eager to get their crops planted. And remembering attorney and activist, the late Vel Phillips. It’s “Here and Now” for April 20.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

Frederica Freyberg:

A major decision from the state DNR is fast approaching. The agency is expected to rule as early as next week whether to allow Racine to divert seven million gallons a day of Lake Michigan water to the village of Mount Pleasant for the use by Foxconn. That decision could set a new precedent for the Great Lakes Compact, which bans diversions of water outside the lake basin. Areas of Mount Pleasant are in the Mississippi River basin but the city of Waukesha was allowed to divert Lake Michigan water in 2016 under the compact. Is the Foxconn request different? As Marisa Wojcik reports with our partners at WisContext, a UW-Parkside professor of geosciences says the two requests are different.

John Skalbeck:

This is the area where they’ll return the flow to the Root River.

Marisa Wojcik:

Dr. John Skalbeck is a professor of geosciences at UW-Parkside specializing in hydrogeology. He sees the 2008 Great Lakes Water Compact as an important measure in protecting this natural resource from those outside the basin.

John Skalbeck:

Had that compact not been in place at that time, there would be a lot more pressure on the Great Lakes as far as supplying water to other areas.

Marisa Wojcik:

When the city of Waukesha, located outside of the basin, applied to divert water from Lake Michigan, Skalbeck saw it as the first test of the compact’s mettle.

John Skalbeck:

There was a need for the water. They demonstrated that need and they met all the terms of the compact.

Marisa Wojcik:

Waukesha needed unanimous approval from the Great Lakes states, unlike a pending diversion application from Racine, which would only have to get approval from the state of Wisconsin.

John Skalbeck:

Racine is applying for the water on behalf of Foxconn.

Marisa Wojcik:

Skalbeck says there are two main differences between Waukesha's diversion application and Racine's. The first being who the water is intended for.

John Skalbeck:

The provision that I have a problem with with the Racine application is over the intent for it to be for public use.

Marisa Wojcik:

The other difference.

John Skalbeck:

There was no information in the application about what that waste stream would contain.

Marisa Wojcik:

Not knowing what will be in the water when it leaves Foxconn.

Frederica Freyberg:

Again, the DNR is expected to make the decision as soon as next week on whether or not to allow Foxconn to use Lake Michigan water. Professor Skalbeck joined us on the banks of the Root River. He joins us now in studio with answers to more of our questions. Thanks for being here.

John Skalbeck:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

Picking up on something you talked with Marisa about, what is your issue with the application that says that the water diverted will be used for public water supply purposes?

John Skalbeck:

Well, the Great Lakes Compact has language regarding public water supply. And it says that it should be primarily for residential, with some commercial and industrial use.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, I guess Foxconn would be that commercial and industrial use, so it seems as though it fits within the language of the compact.

John Skalbeck:

Yes, but the diversion, this ask, is primarily for Foxconn, so a single commercial user.

Frederica Freyberg:

And is that something then that people like yourselves have made public comment about and that the DNR is now reviewing?

John Skalbeck:

Yes. So I attended the public meeting in Sturtevant and then following that public meeting, I presented a letter as a public comment.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so in your mind it’s not enough, this public use of this water that a portion of it is going to commercial use.

John Skalbeck:

Well, it seems like it might be straining the intent of the law, the compact.

Frederica Freyberg:

You also raised the issue of what will be in the wastewater, what that might contain. But the DNR says that the water will be treated to meet applicable permit requirements. So what about that?

John Skalbeck:

That’s fine, but the public should know what the waste stream contains and that I believe should have been part of the application, to know what kind of chemicals that Foxconn would be dealing with.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what are your concerns there?

John Skalbeck:

Just that it’s clear to the public, you know, what will be coming out of that waste stream and make sure that Racine knows that and can monitor for that if they’re going to need to accept that waste.

Frederica Freyberg:

How is this application for diversion different in terms of process than the Waukesha application, like time line, for example?

John Skalbeck:

Well, the Waukesha application fell into the provision of a community within a straddling county. And so that required approval from the eight Great Lakes states and the two Canadian provinces. And that time line was fairly lengthy. It was a very rigorous review. This one falls under the category of a straddling community, so it requires just approval from Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is it your sense or concern that the state didn’t take enough time?

John Skalbeck:

No. I don’t have any issue with the time line, you know, if it can get a careful and quick review. That’s fine. My main concern was that it seemed to be stretching the intent of the compact language.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what are close observers like yourself, of this Foxconn water diversion, expecting the DNR to do here?

John Skalbeck:

Well, I would guess they would make their decision based on the application and the public comments, and I guess we’ll wait and see what they decide.

Frederica Freyberg:

What's your best educated guess as to whether they will decide in favor of this diversion?

John Skalbeck:

Well, the state has initiated infrastructure already. There’s roads that are being modified. There’s pipelines that are being laid. So I would — I guess I would speculate that there would be some pressure to make sure that there’s a permit that’s issued.

Frederica Freyberg:

That's right. So in that event, in the event that the DNR in fact approves this diversion, is it your expectation that this would result in litigation on the part of people who oppose it?

John Skalbeck:

I would be surprised if there was not litigation around the approved permit. I think some folks have already made overtures during the public meeting and as well as during the public comment period.

Frederica Freyberg:

On the basis of what?

John Skalbeck:

On the basis of the public supply.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, even though, as we’ve discussed, the Racine water diversion only needs state approval, how have other Great Lakes states which are a part of the compact reacted to this particular proposed diversion?

John Skalbeck:

Well, I did see one letter from the state of New York that was also questioning the public supply. And then I believe there was a letter from Illinois about the issue of the contaminants in the waste stream. So they were just looking for more information about that.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Well, John Skalbeck, thanks for joining us twice. We appreciate it very much.

John Skalbeck:

All right. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Go to WisContext.org for new reporting on this topic.

They've been something of a fixture across Wisconsin for more than 120 years. Tonight, a closer look at the closing of Bon-Ton stores, which include Boston Store and Younkers. Bon-Ton, with corporate offices in Milwaukee and Pennsylvania, will close 260 stores in 24 states, 13 of them in Wisconsin. The Wisconsin stores employ more than 2200 people, including 700 at the Milwaukee headquarters. What does this closure say about the changing landscape of retail? And what does it mean for shopping malls, now losing their iconic anchor stores, not to mention the economics of it? For that we return to Russ Kashian, director of the Fiscal and Economic Research Center at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater. Thanks for being here.

Russ Kashian:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, from a business perspective, how stunning is it to lose 2200 jobs across the state, 700 Bon-Ton corporate jobs in Milwaukee?

Russ Kashian:

Well, I think what we have to do is reduce it from the aggregate to the individual. We have to say, it isn’t simply 2200 jobs in a state with millions of jobs. It’s jobs in every community across the state. There are Younkers and Boston Stores throughout the state. Each one of them is going to peel off some jobs. And so it’s not simply one firm going under one place, there’s an impact in almost every single metropolitan area in the state.

Frederica Freyberg:

As for Milwaukee, speaking of metropolitan areas, the iconic Boston Store seems to be one of the last big retailers standing at that downtown Grand Avenue Mall. What becomes of that property?

Russ Kashian:

I'm concerned about it, of course. I always start from the individual, concern for the employees, because this is their livelihood. This is also their life, their friends, their family, their neighbors, their customers they’ve been working with for many years. I believe the land–the property downtown Milwaukee will be reused. It’ll be reused as housing or some kind of business property. The challenge down there is going to be how it impacts the other stores in the Grand Avenue. And the reason you have an anchor tenant is the anchor provides stability for the mall. When you lose that anchor, it’s going to list. And that’s my concern, is less the Boston Store site. It’s what’s next door to it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, right. In terms of what it might mean for the downtown, which civic leaders, as you know, are trying really hard to re-invent.

Russ Kashian:

Correct. And you’re losing a major retail player, which will bring other people into downtown.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, for smaller cities that will lose their major department store, what could that spell?

Russ Kashian:

Well, I don’t think it’s good. I look at a city like Manitowoc, where the Younkers that’s there is the last remaining vestige of that mall. I don’t see it being repurposed very easily. So I think the city is going to have to be creative what to do with that facility. You have Janesville. Compounding this is the challenges that Sears and Penney's have all. So in a lot of these communities, you’ll have three anchor tenants. And the anchors are Younkers, Sears and Penney’s. All three of them are under assault.

Frederica Freyberg:

I read one expert in regard to this saying retail is in a state of disruption right now and the role of the department store has changed. How real in your mind is that?

Russ Kashian:

Well, I think it’s entirely accurate. I think the challenges — we’re doing — we do fine in the strip center where you have the unique store. Where someone pulls in, runs into the store, gets their goods and comes back out. The Bed, Bath and Beyond or those types of stores. The era of the large metropolitan mall I think has seen its heyday a long time ago. And this is the final footprint of what’s happening.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why is that?

Russ Kashian:

Well, a lot of it is e-trade. You know, we talked for years about the challenge that having the mall. The Walmart was built on the edge of town and it hollowed out the downtowns. And the mall was built at the edge of town. Southridge Mall was built in a cornfield in the 1960s. And now what’s happening is they’re building the Amazon distribution center in between several MSAs, between several metropolitan areas. And so the hollowing out is moving out even further. And so this is just what happened in the ’60s and ’70s to the downtowns is now happening to the malls as things continue to move out.

Frederica Freyberg:

The one thing that I've seen that apparently developers are doing is building these kind of open air malls, as opposed to these giant enclosed malls with, as you say, the anchor stores. What is an open air mall about in a climate like Wisconsin?

Russ Kashian:

It's about the specialty store. And the climate of Wisconsin is challenging sometimes. But I grew up in Wisconsin. 95% of the time it’s pretty good. You can run out of your car and run into the specialty store and get those goods that you’re looking for and get back to your car without having to traverse an entire shopping mall. The challenge was the department store was designed to bring the people into that store. And then they would kind of mosey on down to the specialty store inside the mall. If the department store isn’t there, then you have to go to the shopping mall and wander around the shopping mall. That’s challenging when I can simply park my car straight in front of that specialty store, the Lands' End store.

Frederica Freyberg:

You talked a moment ago about e-trade, so it’s kind of the Amazons of the world, this online shopping that is putting this pressure on bricks and mortar retail?

Russ Kashian:

It is. It is. I don’t think it’s the death knell of bricks and mortar, but I think bricks and mortar has to respond.

Frederica Freyberg:

Given the employment picture though right now, is it likely that employees who lose their jobs out of this will be able to find other work?

Russ Kashian:

Well, it’s easy to say, “Well, we have a very low unemployment rate. Therefore, they can go do something else.” I go back to the question is maybe they don’t want to — maybe they love their job. And so we have to have a little bit of concern and empathy for the people who worked at Boston Store in a social sense. Of course, they can go work somewhere. But it’s going to be a challenge because this is what their specialty was. This is what they were trained to do.

Frederica Freyberg:

Yeah. I appreciate the idea of empathy and the focus on the individual as opposed to just making it sound like a statistic and, “Oh, there’s plenty of jobs out there.” So Professor Kashian, we really appreciate your input. Thank you very much.

Russ Kashian:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

The state Department of Workforce Development reports this week that Wisconsin’s unemployment rate for March remains at a record low 2.9% for a second month, unchanged from February.

Now to the subject everyone’s been talking about this week, the weather. And an inside look at the impact all this snow may have on state farmers who are nearing planting time. A time which is fast approaching, even as many fields are currently under a deep frozen blanket. Heidi Johnson is the Crops and Soils Educator for UW-Extension in Dane County. Heidi, thanks for being here.

Heidi Johnson:

Sure.

Frederica Freyberg:

What have you heard from farmers who have planting on their calendars but now are dealing with several inches of snow?

Heidi Johnson:

They're eager to get going, but that’s pretty typical. They are used to weather. That’s something they deal with every year for everything they need to do. So they’re pretty — they usually take a pretty relaxed approach to it. So lots of people in their sheds getting their planters tuned up and making sure they have everything ready to go, so they’re keeping busy.

Frederica Freyberg:

Does it put them behind?

Heidi Johnson:

Not at this point. I mean we typically have a lot of rain in April anyways and cold soils. Our main crops are really warm season crops, so corn and soybeans. So we don’t want them in the ground when it’s this cold. The soil really needs to warm before they can get planted. So really the research that we have from UW that’s been done over the last 30 years, planting dates have changed over that time, obviously. But when we look at yields, we really want to see farmers getting in the first week of May to optimize yields.

Frederica Freyberg:

Is there is upside to the moisture that will come from this snowpack?

Heidi Johnson:

Well, it’s always good to have moisture and we want to have the subsoil really recharged with moisture so that is a good thing. I mean if it isn’t snow, it probably would have been rain. So I'm not sure it’s a huge — I think they’d rather see it in the liquid form than the frozen.

Frederica Freyberg:

As you say, producers are always kind of at the whim of weather. But how much can they weather economically, what with the collapse in milk prices and commodity prices?

Heidi Johnson:

Well, that is a concern this year. We do need a full season for corn and soybeans to grow. And so when we start to eat away at planting, then we are losing time. And then that gives the possibility of the crop not finishing all the way, which can increase drying expenses or it can reduce yield if we continue to push that planting date back. So we do want to see that happen so that they can get good yield. And it’s most important this year because of what you said, which is these challenging prices. Right now both crops and milk are — the price that farmers are receiving is pretty much less than what they can make it for.

Frederica Freyberg:

Yeah. So I've seen it described as a dairy crisis. Is that too strong?

Heidi Johnson:

We are seeing a lot of farms go bankrupt right now. And a lot of farms selling cows and going — you know, going into just crop production because they can’t keep going with the dairy production. So it is getting to the point where it’s pretty tough out there. This is — we’ve had extended low prices for dairy, so that’s the problem at this point. Farmers can weather it for a little while, but then it gets to the point where they can’t keep making less than they’re getting for the product — or keep making it for less than they get it for.

Frederica Freyberg:

Farmers that you’ve interacted with, what do they want to see done about this?

Heidi Johnson:

To see done about the prices? I think they’d just like better prices.

Frederica Freyberg:

Right.

Heidi Johnson:

That really is the bottom line. That they need a price that’s more than what they can make it for so that they can make money on it. Farming is a different industry than a lot of industries, where it’s really generations of people that have had that farm. And so when people leave farming, it’s not like leaving a different type of job. It’s a very emotional thing because you’re losing something that’s been in your family for a long time.

Frederica Freyberg:

And you’ve seen that this year?

Heidi Johnson:

We're seeing cows, going, yes, for sure. A lot of times if it’s a dairy farm, they still have acreage that they’ve been using to produce forage crops. And if they sell the cows, then they’ll just switch to producing grain crops, which isn’t a much better deal for them right now, but that’s often what we see is that switch-over. So it is tough and there are farms right around Dane County that have already had to sell their cows this year based on the prices. And we know Wisconsin is leading in farm bankruptcies. So it really is a tough time.

Frederica Freyberg:

In terms of back to the whims of weather, just ahead and, you know, starting today, it’s supposed to be kind of sunny and warm.

Heidi Johnson:

Right.

Frederica Freyberg:

So does that put farmers kind of back on the right track?

Heidi Johnson:

Yeah. I think that’s really going to help now that we’ve got good sun that’s coming, too. We want to see warmer weather. We want to get warmer nights, too, so that that soil — really soil temperature is what’s driving it, so we want to see that soil starting to warm up. If we have full sun and then warmer nights, we’re going to get there quicker. They’ve got things to do before planting like tillage or putting manure out, so there’s some activities they need to get done prior to planting so we need a dry spell for them to get some of that stuff done too.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Heidi Johnson, thanks a lot for joining us.

Heidi Johnson:

Thanks.

Frederica Freyberg:

Finally tonight, the passing of a Wisconsin legend. Civil rights leader, judge and former Wisconsin Secretary of State Vel Phillips died this week at the age of 94. Phillips was a political trailblazer and as this excerpt from a Wisconsin Public Television documentary on her life shows, there were a lot of firsts in those 94 years.

Female Narrator:

On an overcast day in August, 1967, 200 men, women and children marched across the 16th Street viaduct in Milwaukee. On the other side of the bridge, thousands of white residents were waiting. They shouted racist taunts, hurled firecrackers, rocks and bodily fluids. Although they were battered and scared, the activists marched again the next night, and the next, and the next. The marchers demanded what they believed was a basic right: the freedom to live in any neighborhood regardless of the color of your skin. They called it open housing. The public struggle for open housing in Milwaukee had started five years earlier, when one woman decided it was time for a change.

Vel Phillips:

You are aware, gentlemen, that the eyes of the nation, indeed the eyes of the world are upon Milwaukee.

Female Narrator:

Her name was Vel Phillips.

Heidi Johnson:

It was like this is my work.

Man:

She did things that were unheard of for her time.

Female Narrator:

Vel Phillips was the first African-American woman to graduate from the University of Wisconsin Law School, the first African-American and first female alderman in Milwaukee, the first African-American judge in Wisconsin, the first African-American and first female to be elected to statewide executive office in Wisconsin or anywhere in the United States.

Vel Phillips:

My mother would always tell us, if you really want it, don’t dream small dreams. Dream big dreams.

Frederica Freyberg:

Vel Phillips died Tuesday. She was 94. You just saw an excerpt from the WPT documentary “Vel Phillips: Dream Big Dreams.” You can watch the entire documentary online at wpt.org and on Monday, April 23rd, the film will be shown on Wisconsin Public Television at 9:00 p.m. Earlier in tonight’s program, we covered the jobs fallout related to the Bon-Ton corporate demise. Tune into Wisconsin Public Radio’s morning program on Monday at 6:00 a.m. for more coverage on that topic. Kate Archer Kent and her guests will discuss what the impact of Bon-Ton’s departure might mean for the broader retail landscape. Next week on “Here & Now” a new law relaxes some regulations on rental property owners. We’ll explore the impact on renters. That’s all for tonight’s program. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided, in part, by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

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