Announcer:

The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

Good evening. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” we devote the program to the race for state school superintendent. Marisa Wojcik reports on issues in the race. Candidates Deborah Kerr and Jill Underly appear together tonight just ahead of Tuesday’s election. Then analysis of the joint appearance and a look ahead to Election Day. Political panelists Bill McCoshen and Scot Ross are also here. It’s “Here & Now” for April 2.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Just three days to the spring election, three days left in a statewide campaign to lead the Wisconsin K-12 school system. There are two candidates fighting for this job. Deborah Kerr has worked in parochial, charter, private and public schools including 13 years as superintendent of the Brown Deer School District. She is currently co-chair of the UW System Task Force for Advancing Teachers and School Leaders. Jill Underly is a former high school and middle school social studies teacher. She’s worked as a licensing specialist at the Department of Public Instruction and for the past six years, Underly has served as superintendent of the Pecatonica School District. Both candidates join us in just a moment. But first, Marisa Wojcik provides this overview of some of the key issues in the race.

Marisa Wojcik:

The race for Wisconsin’s next superintendent of public schools is coming to the final push for candidates Jill Underly and Deborah Kerr, having just three days left in the campaign to appeal to voters before Tuesday’s election for the state’s top educator. The race highlights key contrasts between Democratic-backed Underly and GOP-backed Kerr, including how the state Department of Public Instruction, which oversees the largest budget of public funds, should have responded in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. The governor closed schools in the spring last year. By the fall, school districts could decide for themselves whether to reopen classrooms, teach virtually or run a hybrid model. Some districts reopened right away in September with a virtual option. Others have waited, keeping students learning from home as positive COVID cases continued to rise through December.

Sarah Ouzounian:

Some families hoped for us to open sooner. Some families are thinking we still could be waiting longer. So it differs so that’s why I’m excited because this is the chance now that families have the opportunity to choose.

Marisa Wojcik:

The Madison Metropolitan School District recently began to phase kindergarten through 2nd grade back into the classrooms with older grades to return in April.

Jackie Smith:

As an educator, children bring joy and it really has been joyful even though there’s different routines and safety procedures we are following to keep everyone safe.

Marisa Wojcik:

There’s no official record of which districts returned and when, but Madison and Milwaukee appear to be the last remaining districts teaching mostly virtually. The issue has been a lightning rod of debate. One side contending students need to be back in the classroom full time, the other side disputing the health and safety of returning in person. One thing is certain: many students struggled to learn online and districts are playing catch-up.

Jackie Smith:

There’s some structures and supports we’re exploring to ensure we really are able to target instruction for students who may have missed instruction during virtual learning.

Marisa Wojcik:

The outgoing state superintendent said school closures magnified many inequities. This is top of mind for two principals we spoke with.

Sarah Ouzounian:

The biggest thing on my mind for the state of Wisconsin is that we have some of the biggest achievement gaps in the country, so I think that needs to be the top of our focus for anyone in education.

Jackie Smith:

Continuing to disrupt practices that may have further marginalized students of color. We are definitely committed to doing that work. Hopefully who’s ever in that role will support us on that journey.

Marisa Wojcik:

Other issues at the forefront in the race are the private school voucher program, school funding and teachers unions. For “Here & Now,” I’m Marisa Wojcik in Madison.

Frederica Freyberg:

And we are joined now by the candidates. Deborah Kerr joins us from Milwaukee. Jill Underly appears from Madison and thanks to both of you for being here.

Deborah Kerr:

Good afternoon.

Jill Underly:

Of course.

Frederica Freyberg:

Hey. So Marisa teed up some of the issue areas for us to explore, first on reopening of schools. Deb Kerr, one of your campaign ads calling for full reopening says we can no longer play politics with our children. How are politics being played on this issue of reopening schools?

Deborah Kerr:

Several months I put out a plan to reopen our schools safely and sensibly. I had a statewide reentry plan and recovery plan. What’s happened is the five — some of the five largest districts in the state have not reopened because they’ve been strong-armed by the teachers unions. So that’s what I mean about the politics. We need to open our schools safely. The science shows we can open our schools safely, that students don’t spread the disease and teachers don’t necessarily have to be vaccinated to open schools safely. We have over 70% of schools open in Wisconsin. And unfortunately, the majority of those schools that are open are with white students. Our predominantly minority students, our black and brown students, are not back in school yet full-time and we need to get back to business so we can get on the road to recovery.

Frederica Freyberg:

To you, Jill Underly. What would be your guidance to districts now open or those that aren’t yet fully back in person if, as these new trends are showing, COVID cases start going up again? Your guidance to districts?

Jill Underly:

Yeah. My guidance is I would suggest that the teachers get vaccinated especially if the cases are going up but my school has been open. We really worked hard to make sure my school could be open and we did so safely. We made sure that we were able to space people out and we also made sure that we hired additional personnel and had PPE. Like I said, my school has been open. We did so safely. That’s what I’ve been saying all along, is that the local school districts know how to do this and they should be able to make that decision.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, this is a non-partisan elected office as I don’t have to tell you both, yet Deb Kerr has the backing of Republicans, including former governor Scott Walker. Jill Underly, you have the backing and endorsement of those that include the Democratic Party, politicians and unions. In a forum this week, Ms. Kerr, you accused Democrats of buying this election for your opponent. Why in your estimation would they do that?

Deborah Kerr:

Well, I don’t know. It’s unfortunate. I’m deeply saddened by it because there’s been name-calling. There’s been disparaging remarks made about my school community in Brown Deer and the Democrats and unions have put over a million dollars into my opponent’s campaign. She has dug up dirt on my previous situation in Brown Deer with a business manager. She’s hurting my Black and brown students and families by talking about issues that she has no understanding of. So those million dollar ads are being run right now. It’s very unfortunate. This is the kind of thing you see in a gubernatorial race, not a state superintendent’s race.

Frederica Freyberg:

Jill Underly, you have said it saddens you that this race has become so partisan. How so and why does it sadden you?

Jill Underly:

It saddens me because supporting our public schools, which serves 860,000 kids throughout Wisconsin, it has become partisan. There are issues such as funding, for example, reopening the schools. Those certainly are things that have made it become partisan. But organizations and individuals on both sides are lining up. For example, the big right wing anti-public education donors are of course supporting Dr. Kerr. And then grassroots, progressives, member-funded organizations are supporting me. You know, I’m proud of the support I’m getting because people are investing in a leader that they know has good judgment, can manage a budget and will make our schools stronger for every kid. I’ve been working very hard to get my message out to voters and I’m proud of the support I’ve been receiving from every corner of the state.

Frederica Freyberg:

At this point we want to go this direction. We asked each of you to come prepared to ask a question directly of your opponent. We will go first to you, Jill Underly. What is your question for Deb Kerr?

Jill Underly:

Okay. All right. Judgment is an issue in this campaign. Deb, you’ve careened from crisis to crisis in this race. You’ve got a financial problem from ten years ago still dogging you. There’s an ethics complaint about your using taxpayer resources to set up and recruit clients for your business. You had to delete your Twitter account but not before you started blocking critics. Your campaign team quit on you and your former campaign manager has endorsed me now. So my question is how can voters have confidence you have the good judgment and discipline to run this critical state agency?

Frederica Freyberg:

Ms. Kerr, go ahead with your response to that question.

Deb Kerr:

Well, first of all, I have over 40 years of experience of being in education, 34 years of public school education. I have cross sector experience. I’m parochial educated and been a superintendent for 20 years. And so I have lots of experience supervising employees and staff. Unfortunately, because this has become a partisan issue, people’s livelihoods have been threatened. And that’s so unfortunate because it didn’t have to go that way. But you also have an ethics complaint against yourself. The people who have been brought forth with those types of ethics complaints have gone to prison. The ethics complaint I have, those people have not. I had incidental contact in starting a new business and I did not exchange any kind of contractual arrangement. So I think you have brought up something that has been very devastating to my Brown Deer community and they are behind me 100%. In fact, they have come out and put ads in the paper supporting me and they will always back me because I would have never been able to stay as a superintendent in Brown Deer for 13 years if I had some other kind of financial irregularity. So you are misspoken about that and that’s very unfortunate.

Frederica Freyberg:

At this point I’d like to dig into some of that, but I also want to get to some of the important issues in this race. So I will ask you, Deb Kerr, what is your question then for Jill Underly?

Deb Kerr:

When a candidate spends all their time and their resources putting down someone else, a former colleague, it’s because they know they’re not capable of competing at a high level. You clearly, Jill, do not understand our state. You approach everything from a partisan bureaucrat mindset and I would like to hear how that is best for our state’s future. How will you take your partisan approach, strong-armed by the teachers union, to our state and work with Republican Legislature, especially after calling them transphobic? I’d like to hear how you continuing what has gone on in the DPI for years is going to make us better when Wisconsin kids have clearly suffered under your partisan style of leadership.

Frederica Freyberg:

Ms. Underly, go ahead.

Jill Underly:

All right. Thank you. So this campaign is about good judgment, and I’ve got over 20 years of experience in rural, urban and suburban school districts as well as in higher education and including the Department of Public Instruction. This campaign is about equity, a leader who can bring equity to full-day, full-week, 4K, after-school programming, expanding mental health access to our kids too. It’s about leading our school districts through this pandemic. I have a lot of people supporting me, dozens of superintendents, school board members, county board members, city council. I have a bipartisan group of current and former legislators. And they support me because I’m dedicated to Wisconsin’s kids, our public schools, and I’ve demonstrated the good judgment and financial management we need in this position.

Frederica Freyberg:

I think we leave that section there. Thank you very much. Very pointed questions, difficult in this non-partisan race, once again. But thank you. I want to get now to achievement gaps. Two educators in Marisa’s reporting spoke to their concern that the past year had exacerbated achievement gaps between students of color and white students. What is the very best way to eliminate these gaps? Jill Underly, first to you.

Jill Underly:

That’s a great question. Eliminating these gaps is something I’m very passionate about. I reflect on them as opportunity gaps however because achievement gaps make it sound like it’s something the kids did to underachieve but really it’s about opportunities and the zip code you live in determines your educational opportunities and your outcomes. So in order to address this, we have to look at equity. We have to look at the programs that work, such as expanding full-day 4K to full week. Wrap-around care, wrap-around child care for our elementary school kids, looking at expanding mental health access to our communities, especially our underserved communities as well and then also recruiting teachers and retaining those teachers, especially teachers of color because if we’re truly going to erase these gaps, we need to make sure we have teachers that look like our students. But kind of underlying all of this is the fact that our school funding formula is broken. We need to infuse it with additional resources so we can provide these opportunities for our kids.

Frederica Freyberg:

Deb Kerr, what’s your first priority in addressing achievement gaps or opportunity gaps, as Dr. Underly refers to them?

Deb Kerr:

Well, first of all, we have to acknowledge the serious nature of these achievement gaps and unfortunately under the current leadership there’s been ten years of these achievement gaps across the country between our Black and white students. We need to get Wisconsin off the list of under-performing as compared to all the other states in the United States. I will do that with my experience in leading a very diverse school district and scaling the activities that I did by focusing on literacy and math. So I was able to close achievement gaps, raise achievement and get almost 100% graduation rate of Black, brown and white students. It can be done with focused interventions and high-quality curriculum and staff development not only for teachers, but for principals, superintendents and parents too. We’ve got to get on — we’ve got to get back to school so we can be working on these exact issues. I do agree that we need to take a look at the way schools are funded. And I want to remind everyone that the state superintendent is in charge of all students. It’s the law. So I want to bring people to the table to talk about how can we best fund all kids and what does a high-quality education look like so we can close these achievement gaps.

Frederica Freyberg:

As important as that issue is, I wanted to jump to something that was mentioned previously and that is the fact that Legislatures across the country and here in Wisconsin are considering these laws to prohibit transgender athletes from playing on girls sports teams. Deb Kerr, you support those kinds of prohibitions. Tell us why.

Deb Kerr:

Well, one of the things I’ve been frustrated with is some of these questions that really are not in the purview of the state superintendent. But I speak to them from my personal experiences. So I’m a college athlete, I’m a girl of title IX. I am not transphobic. I’ve never been transphobic. I’ve worked with my kids in school district and my teachers in many, many ways to support them no matter where they come to us, what entry point and who they are and what they want to be. And so that information, the law and the Legislature, those kind of things are very complex. And they’re very nuanced. And so unfortunately my answer was taken out context in a short, little sound-bite.

Frederica Freyberg:

Okay. Jill Underly, your response to that same question? Your position on any kind — any kind legislative bills that would ban transgender athletes from competing on girls or women’s teams.

Jill Underly:

All right. Thank you. So look. Serving all kids means serving all kids. And we can’t turn our back on those who need our help the most. The truth is that this is an issue meant to divide and distract us. This race is about who has the best judgment, the best financial management skills and the best vision for the future. The comparison is clear.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to go to this important issue and that is one of the starkest differences in your positions around tax-funded voucher schools or school choice. Governor Evers’ budget calls for a cap on choice enrollment. Should it be capped? First to you, Deb Kerr.

Deb Kerr:

First of all, it’s the law. And I don’t think the Legislature is going to pass that law to cap anything. I think what we need to think about is what’s going to happen in four years when those caps come off. Right now our public schools are in a crisis because we’re not back in school full time. I’m worried that our public school parents who have gone to private schools or voucher schools because they’re on face to face instruction are not coming back. I would love to have every parent choose their public school in their own neighborhood, but this is exactly why we have school choice in Wisconsin to give parents that choice and I respect that liberty.

Frederica Freyberg:

I don’t have a lot of time left but of course I want you, Jill Underly, to have the opportunity to talk about whether or not you think that enrollment on school choice should be capped.

Jill Underly:

I do think it should be capped. I’m not looking to take a voucher away from a student that currently has one. But in the long term, we have to look at our school finance. In the long term, we can’t afford to finance two school systems in Wisconsin and we need to make sure that every child has access to a quality education in a public school every day, period.

Frederica Freyberg:

We leave it there. Deb Kerr, Jill Underly, thank you very much.

Deb Kerr:

You’re welcome.

Jill Underly:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Three more days to the spring election. That’s plenty of time to go to WisconsinVote.org for more on the candidates and issues on the DPI race. WisconsinVote.org. Joining us now to look ahead to Election Day and for analysis of the candidate conversation that just took place, “Here & Now” political panelists Republican Bill McCoshen and Democrat Scot Ross. Thanks for being here.

Bill McCoshen, Scot Ross:

Thanks for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:

So first to you, Scot. What’s your reaction to that interview that we just aired?

Scot Ross:

Well, I think it shows the real difference between the two candidates. Jill Underly believes that every student deserves a high-quality public education every day no matter where their zip code is and Deb Kerr is floundering about trying to cobble together some sort of Republican coalition to win on Election Day. I thought the contrast was very stark. It was between an educator and a politician.

Frederica Freyberg:

Bill, what do you think?

Bill McCoshen:

Well, I think where I disagree with Scot is I think it was two qualified individuals running for this position. Deb Kerr has been in public education for 40 years now. Jill Underly for a little over 20 years. So they both have been superintendents of successful school districts. Deb Kerr, a majority/minority school district Brown Dear. 80% of the students are Black or brown. She’s eliminated the achievement gap there. Jill Underly in Pecatonica, it’s only 1% Black or brown. So I mean I think where Scot and I will disagree the most is on the issues people care about. I think people want their kids back in school. Deb Kerr is for that. I think they want these achievement gaps eliminated. Deb Kerr has done that at Brown Deer.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to ask at this point why is this race for school superintendent so angry? Scot?

Scot Ross:

Well, I think it’s the tenor of the times. Right now we have a Republican Party that has gone full QAnon. They continue to push the big lie. They continue to stop, try to prevent people from voting. They’re attacking transgender students, something that Deb Kerr supports. I think that’s why there’s a certain nastiness to this. I think Dr. Underly has shown herself to be no drama, to be very competent, to be reliable, to be steady. I think that’s what the voters are looking for. I think it’s what they’ve had in the last several DPI candidates including current Governor Tony Evers.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, Bill, he’s blaming the Republicans. I trust you blame the Democrats.

Bill McCoshen:

Well, the Democrats threw the mud first here. Don’t forget, the Democratic Party of Wisconsin has put almost a million dollars in this race. The Republican Party of Wisconsin hasn’t put any money in Deb Kerr’s race. Clearly Jill Underly is the democratic favorite and more importantly, she’s the teachers’ union candidates. Deb Kerr is for the kids. Jill Underly is for the teachers. I think where Scot’s wrong about this. It got a little messy early on tertiary issues. Things that are really not relevant to this race. I wish they would have been able to speak about issues throughout the race including school choice. Deb Kerr’s a supporter of school choice. Jill Underly is not. In fact, Jill Underly was a hypocrite about this. She says she’s for public schools, but she sent her own kids to private schools when she lived in Madison.

Frederica Freyberg:

She said that was about finding a place for 4-K and after-school care. But, right, that was something that came up in this campaign. But, Scot, why did the Dems put so much money into this race? Like what, 16 times more than Kerr’s contributions?

Scot Ross:

Well, I think it’s because it shows they want to see a good, competent DPI secretary. The fact is is that every — when we do these spring elections, Republicans when it comes to things like the Supreme Court, the Republican Party is always the largest funder of the conservative candidate. So I’m glad to see Democrats jumping into these races because I think people deserve to have a full understanding of the issues. Democrats have been able to do that by talking about things like Deb Kerr’s financial mismanagement that cost Wisconsin taxpayers $136,000. The fact that she had to take down her Twitter feed. That’s pretty bad. She lost her campaign team. These are all signs of somebody who is not up to the task of managing the statewide education of our kids.

Frederica Freyberg:

It begs the question, Bill, why didn’t the Betsy DeVoses of the world pour money into Kerr when they saw the Dem expenditures?

Bill McCoshen:

I don’t think they saw the sharp contrast they were looking for early in the general election. Scot’s right. There were some missteps by the Kerr campaign. Once she got over them, the sharp contrast began to appear, particularly on the school choice issue and the reopening of all schools. We know that urban school districts in Madison and Milwaukee, for example, still don’t have their high school students back in the classroom. That’s something that Deb Kerr is for. I think it was a mistake by the choice people and frankly the business community not getting more involved in this race earlier.

Frederica Freyberg:

Bill, how badly does Deb Kerr’s former employee and the subject of Underly’s ad hurt Kerr? This is the finance manager in the Brown Deer School District and all of that. Does that hurt Kerr?

Bill McCoshen:

No. Just so we’re all clear about this and your viewers, this is pre-Act 10 and it was much harder to fire a bad employee in those days. Had that all occurred after Act 10, Deb could have acted more swiftly to get rid of that person.

Frederica Freyberg:

So Scot, Jill Underly says that goes to judgment, that kind of thing.

Scot Ross:

Absolutely. I want to just — Bill’s point on the choice community not getting involved as much, the DeVos folks, I think if Deb Kerr had started her campaign attacking teachers over and over again like she’s done the last couple weeks in particularly in your good debate, I think they would have come in a lot earlier because that’s seems to be what she has to say, the teachers are the problem. That is absolutely not what the voters of Wisconsin believe.

Frederica Freyberg:

So Scot —

Bill McCoshen:

I think what she’s saying is the union is the problem, not the teachers. I think Deb Kerr believes the teachers want to be back in the classroom, but it’s the unions in certain large urban areas that are preventing that. In fact, Jill Underly is having an event with the teacher union in Madison today while Madison high school students can’t be in the classroom. The ultimate irony.

Scot Ross:

I don’t think the question is why Jill Underly is getting the support of the hard-working teachers all across the state of Wisconsin. The question is why isn’t Deb Kerr? It’s because she’s anti-public education. It’s because she waivers on a lot of these things. It’s because of her judgment. And honestly, it’s because Scott Walker supports her campaign.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to —

Bill McCoshen:

Let’s face it. She’s a first-time candidate. So she’s made some mistakes along the way and yes, there was a change in campaign team. You know, Underly’s had the benefit of a professional campaign team and lots and lots of money all the way through. But at the end of the day on Tuesday, this is going to be a low turnout election and anything can happen. Typically in a spring election, the voting population tends to be older, they tend to be more white and they tend to be a little bit more conservative or Republican-leaning. So despite being out-spent by at least 16-1, Deb Kerr is very much still in this race.

Frederica Freyberg:

Because I would image the kinds of people that would be motivated to vote in this kind of low turnout race would be school choice advocates and teachers. Scot, who do you think has more oomph in that crowd?

Scot Ross:

Well, I think — I mean I agree with Bill, I think the turnout could be lower than we’ve had in the past. But I also know that, like you say, teachers are an active part of the voting population, especially in a DPI spring race. It is an older demographic. They’re going to get their information, a lot of them get their information from television news unlike the youngs and television news has been showing a lot of the ads for — that are against Deb Kerr’s performance and for Jill Underly’s support. So I think it’s going to be a — everybody has to do what they need to do in order to get across the finish line. I think maybe the turnout will be a little bit higher than what Bill’s predicting, but I think it’s within the realm that Jill Underly gets across the finish lights first on Election Day.

Frederica Freyberg:

We’ll see what happens. Bill and Scot, thanks for joining us on this.

Bill McCoshen, Scot Ross:

Thanks for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:

For more news from “Here & Now,” you can visit PBSwisconsin.org and click on the news tab. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.