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The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

The Wisconsin vaccination program on partial pause this week. State health officials follow the CDC recommendation to temporarily stop the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. This is the battle to control forthcoming federal COVID money continues at the state Capitol. And as tensions mount throughout this week at the Minnesota trial of Derek Chauvin. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” the fight for control of federal COVID dollars at the state Capitol. Party leaders are here. The push to get children vaccinated. And the trauma impact of the Derek Chauvin trial. It’s “Here & Now” for April 16.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Man:

Say his name.

Crowd:

Daunte Wright.

Frederica Freyberg:

Demonstrations through the week over another Black man shot and killed by a police officer in a Minneapolis suburb. The same week testimony in the criminal trial of Derek Chauvin wrapped up, after weeks of evidence, including the repeated replay of video detailing the death of George Floyd, who succumbed after the police officer held him down with his knee. How triggering are these relentless events? How oppressive is the feeling that Black lives don’t matter? We check in with Dr. Alvin Thomas, clinic psychologist and assistant professor at the UW-Madison School of Human Ecology. Doctor, thank you for being here.

Alvin Thomas:

You’re welcome. Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

How are the Chauvin trial for the office charged with the killing of George Floyd and the police killing of Daunte Wright affecting the mental health of Black men and boys in particular right now?

Alvin Thomas:

I think you put your finger on the pulse in that we’ve had these repeated experiences of Black Death being streamed into public spaces and private spaces for a lot of people. And whether it’s George Floyd or Daunte Wright or the countless others before and probably after this, what we’re seeing is this repeated exposure to images like this and in some cases video like this and in other cases just hearing about it. This repeated exposure constitutes some kind of potential trauma, in some cases direct trauma for the family members, but for others who are not necessarily directly related, that experience of vicarious trauma. These things that we experience both directly and indirectly have very stark negative impacts on our psyche and our ability to function normally.

Frederica Freyberg:

We see protests and demonstrations over what happened to George Floyd and Daunte Wright and so many others. You have said, “Black people are crying out and America is not listening and not responding because it hears the noise and not the pain.” What is this disconnect?

Alvin Thomas:

I think the disconnect is often that we see people first as roles, as social rules and social designations before we see them as human beings. And because we’re disconnected from that human connection, that joins all of us, that collective humanity, it’s a lot easier to dismiss sometimes what’s happening with another individual. That sudden loss of inner sense, that sudden change in our worldview, that the world is safe. That the world has opportunities for all, that the world is a place that’s full love, that is suddenly and permanently transformed into a worldview of the world as an unsafe, scary, dangerous, unpredictable space.

Frederica Freyberg:

Some decry the property destruction of protests. But is that expression of anger among those protesting wrong?

Alvin Thomas:

I think we get into a weird space when we start to legislate wrong and right with regard to an individual’s attempt to express something that’s not being heard. If I bring it back to just how a child would react, for instance, if a child is reacting to something that’s happening inside of them or some perceived mismatch between the needs that they have and the society or the family’s attempt to meet those needs, if that mismatch continues to go on and the child is not seen, there’s a frustration in meeting those needs, eventually the individual starts to act in different ways to attract attention to the issue. And I think that’s what I’m talking about when I say we hear about these cries. We hear about the protests. We hear about the destruction of property, but underlying the protests and the destruction of property is that cry that says I am human and you’re not hearing me.

Frederica Freyberg:

The CDC just declared racism a serious public health threat, and you wrote, once again, I quote your own words, that “as we speak the Black community is being devastated by catastrophic losses. Both the loss from COVID-19 and at the hands of police in a different kind of a fatal epidemic.” How overwhelming is this vulnerability?

Alvin Thomas:

I think the vulnerability is far more than we are seeing. I think what we are seeing are the things that are on the surface. In line with the CDC’s declaration, the APHA – American Public Health Association – had a similar declaration in 2019 and 2020 addressing a number of different elements of the problematic relationship that our institutions have with Black communities. What we are seeing, though, an awareness — maybe not so much — well, a growing awareness of the symptoms of the larger issue, but without the determination to address the underlying issues, which is historical and deeply entrenched marginalization of certain groups, one of them being the Black community.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your message to people struggling with mental health triggered pointedly right now?

Alvin Thomas:

Look at the people around you to see whether or not you’re seeing a change, a drastic change in their behavior. That’s usually the first sign that something is happening for the individual that they’re harboring, they’re dealing with something on the inside that they can’t yet find space to explore it.

One of the things that a few of my colleagues and I from the Urban League of Madison and from

New Balance Life Wellness [?] with some monies from the WPP partnership have done is to do some work specifically with Black men and Black boys, trying to support them and to engage in mental health conversations. And that is probably one of the first steps. Giving people the space to be able to share their stories, unfettered and unjudged and supported in sharing their stories and getting the support that they need.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We leave it there. Thank you very much. Thanks for your insights, Dr. Alvin Thomas.

Alvin Thomas:

You’re welcome. Thanks very much.

Frederica Freyberg:

Republican majorities in both houses of the state Legislature passed a number of bills this week, including changes to state election procedures. The hottest debate came with bills related to how to spend a large part of the over $3 billion federal COVID relief stimulus money. One plan directs 10% of their last property tax bill to property owners. That would account for just over $1 billion of the federal COVID aid to the state. Republicans approved a plan that would allow $500 million of the feds relief money to pay off state debt, $310 million to shore up the state’s unemployment fund, over $308 million for bridges and road repair and $68 million for communications upgrades and a mental health center in northern Wisconsin. Democrats say using the federal relief funds in those ways is not allowed based on federal guidelines and as interpreted by the non-partisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau. What’s more, the bills may have the word “veto” written all over them. Governor Tony Evers says legislative oversight would only slow down the release of the money.

Tony Evers:

I can’t imagine having the Joint Finance Committee being in charge of that, where one senator could raise his hand and — his or her hand and say, sorry, I don’t like that. Where do you go? You do nothing.

Frederica Freyberg:

Governor Tony Evers speaking in La Crosse on Thursday.

Earlier, I spoke with Senate Majority Leader Devin LeMahieu. Why do you want the Legislature to control how $2.7 billion of the federal COVID stimulus is spent?

Devin LeMahieu:

The Legislature has an important job that we’re working on, the budget, going forward. And with this last round of spending by the federal government, $1.9 trillion nationally, with over $5.7 billion coming into the state of Wisconsin, we feel that it’s important for the Legislature to have a voice in how that $3.2 billion that the governor has sole discretion over is spent. It’s very important to provide framework, sort of a roadmap as we enter the budget process going forward. Without a framework or a roadmap, we’re sort of flying blind going into the budget because we don’t know if the governor is sitting there with all kinds of federal money in his pockets. It’s going to be hard to develop a budget.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you not think that Governor Evers is spending the federal funds in the right way?

Devin LeMahieu:

We don’t know how he’s going to spend the funds. We just simply don’t know. So we chose — the goal behind our 11-bill plan for spending this federal funds is to make sure that it’s investing in one-time items to make sure that it’s not causing a future deficit by using it for ongoing expenses and making sure we’re investing in infrastructure in the state of Wisconsin and small businesses, in families who are paying property taxes, some of the people who have been hardest hit for some of the personal relief. And also investing long-term into infrastructure so it can have long-term, lasting effects, such as broadband, local roads, things like that.

Frederica Freyberg:

There is some crossover between the governor and majority Republicans, namely on things like broadband, small business and tourism. Why not kind of work together so that you can work on this roadmap together?

Devin LeMahieu:

You know, that’s what we wanted to do. That’s why we came in last month in the Legislature and passed the Legislative Oversight Bill giving JFC passive approval over how this federal money is spent in the state of Wisconsin. Unfortunately the governor vetoed that the minute it came to his desk. It appears that the governor has no desire to include us in this process. We feel that it was important to just put that roadmap out there on how we think it should be best spent.

Frederica Freyberg:

What happens when Governor Evers vetoes the bills?

Devin LeMahieu:

Then I guess we’re starting from scratch again, and like I mentioned earlier, it makes it very tough to develop a budget. The governor has, you know, broadband spending in the budget. But we don’t know if he’s going to spend money on broadband with the federal money. So how can we put that in the budget? The governor has replacing lead pipes in Milwaukee in the budget. That was one of the provisions that we had in our bills. So if he vetoes it, and he has the ability to do it with federal money, how do we put that in the budget? That’s sort of the dilemma we’re facing as we start going through the budget process.

Frederica Freyberg:

What if some of the spending in your bills that’s not allowed under the federal bill?

Devin LeMahieu:

We don’t know that for certain at this point. There are fiscal bureau papers put out that are speculating on what the federal guidance might be. But the U.S. Treasury hasn’t issued that guidance yet. But we feel that it’s important to put those priorities out there. Hopefully the federal government gives a broader, broader — in their guidance broader use of that funds to make sure we can invest in infrastructure. Some of the bills we think for sure will be covered under this and some might not be, they might be, but we think they’re important to put those priorities out there.

Frederica Freyberg:

On a different matter but related, what’s your response to the Evers’ administration making kind of a saving construction to get the enhanced Food Share federal funding? Is that a good thing, in your mind?

Devin LeMahieu:

That was a fix that we had in AB1 that the governor vetoed, so obviously we thought that was a priority to make sure that that FoodShare ability to get the expanded federal access was going forward. There’s still probably some questions legally if the governor has the authority to do that after some of the recent Supreme Court rulings. But — so we’re checking into that. But I think it’s definitely beneficial for the state for that funding to be continued going forward. You know, apparently the Biden administration is willing to provide some pretty broad, broad interpretation of federal law to the governor in this instance and hopefully, hopefully the U.S. Treasury can provide some of that broad guidance to us as we spend federal money to make sure we know what’s best for the state of Wisconsin and the federal government may not know what’s best for the state of Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your position on requiring people to get a COVID vaccine?

Devin LeMahieu:

I don’t think people should be required to get a COVID vaccine. If a private business makes that determination, I guess that’s up to the private business. But I definitely don’t think government should be mandating that individuals get a COVID vaccination.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your message to people about getting a vaccine?

Devin LeMahieu:

You know, we’re over a year into the pandemic. People have learned a lot about the pandemic. There’s been a lot of information learned. And it’s definitely up to the individual. Hopefully a lot of people do get vaccinated to make sure we get up to that herd immunity. So I’d encourage vaccinations for all people, but I understand some people may not feel, depending on their circumstances, may not feel comfortable. But it’s great that Wisconsin is — seems to be ahead of the curve working with, you know, Walgreens and the hospital association and clinics to get the vaccines out. So that’s great for the state of Wisconsin and hopefully people continue to get vaccinated.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We appreciate your time. Senator LeMahieu, thanks very much.

Devin LeMahieu:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

We turn now to the other side of the aisle and head to Oshkosh. That’s where we are joined by Assembly Minority Leader Democrat Gordon Hintz. Thanks very much for being here.

Gordon Hintz:

Happy to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

You said the Republican bills to take control of how to spend some $2.7 billion of the federal COVID stimulus money is designed to, “score political points.” How so?

Gordon Hintz:

Well, first off, I think Governor Evers has done a tremendous job, a nonpolitical job, trying to address the needs of our state, both during the height of the pandemic, coming out of the pandemic and by introducing a budget that really tries to turn the corner both on the public health side and the economy. And with the American Rescue Plan Act, we expect more of the same. It’s that kind of discretion that I think we need where we don’t need the micromanaging and politicizing each of these decisions. Legislative Republicans refused to act for the last nine months heading up until this session starting and a week ago introduced these bills that when you look at their track record since Governor Evers has been elected, time after time, their priority seems to be to try to thwart, sue, stop, make the governor look bad. I just don’t think the public has any appetite for this at a time when we should be managing the crisis and de-politicizing things.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about the argument that Republican budget writers need to know where this money can be plugged in as they try to recraft the budget?

Gordon Hintz:

Well, I mean, I think a lot of us have those questions as well, but remember some of the Republican attempts that were introduced may not actually be compliant with what the federal government is asking for in terms of what they’re going to allow. This is one-time money. I think the governor is slowly releasing very deliberate considerations on what can best help address COVID and help build back our economy. The recent announcement of $100 million for the economy is something. I think there will be discussions about infrastructure, broadband, some of those things. I think we will know a lot that prior to the deliberations of the Finance Committee. But I don’t think that’s what was going on with the proposal by the Republicans. I think this was just sort of more of the same, trying to combat Governor Evers politically and he’s not interested and I don’t think the public is either.

Frederica Freyberg:

That said, wouldn’t this call for some working across the aisle to best help Wisconsin as it tries to recover? The entire onus not necessarily on Republicans?

Gordon Hintz:

Absolutely. And look, I think one of the best moments we’ve had in a pretty toxic political environment was last April where we did work across the aisle and had a near unanimous COVID package that we worked hard on together, signed into law by Governor Evers. I think there was hope over the last year that that would somewhat continue. And I think it’s possible now. And that’s what I mean. If there are ideas or there are questions or suggestions, I would reach out to the administration or the agencies. But I think it’s important to understand just like the CARES Act resources last year, you know, you want to have some flexibility as we hope we know where we’re going to be in a few months. We don’t necessarily know. So tying up those resources isn’t necessarily the best idea. It’s not prudent. But we’ll have to see how it impacts the budget overall.

Frederica Freyberg:

There are some shared interests between the GOP and Governor Evers, namely, spending money on broadband, small businesses and tourism. But when Governor Evers vetoes the Republican bills, as he has as much as promised, how does that set him up for criticism for rejecting that spending?

Gordon Hintz:

Well, on the bills that have been introduced, they haven’t exactly been introduced with the governor’s input and there’s always been a clear poison pill. That’s a part of all of these things. If you’re going to repeal the mask mandate, if you’re going to introduce oversight where you can micromanagement the governor’s spending decisions, those are probably things that are pretty clear the governor is not going to sign, which I think makes it clear that this is more political. I think you mentioned a lot of things that there are areas of agreement. I mentioned broadband, transportation, infrastructure. Given that a lot of the federal money that we’re talking about is one-time, I think we really need to look at what are the things that we can really catch up on. The governor has made a priority of lead pipe replacement, groundwater, a lot of things that impact communities throughout the state that we could make some significant headway on. And a budget that I think has the resources to make a difference as proposed by Governor Evers. So I think we’re open. But, you know, they’ve got to let go of the fact that Governor Evers is governor. If any one of them wants to be governor, they can run.

Frederica Freyberg:

Right. We leave it there. Representative Gordon Hintz, thanks very much.

Gordon Hintz:

Thank you.

Julie Willems Van Dijk:

To prioritize the health and safety of our residents and to provide enough time to learn more and make evidence-based decisions about the effect of this news on the vaccine roll-out, we have paused the use of Johnson & Johnson vaccine in Wisconsin. It is important to know that these reactions, we call them adverse events, represent six adverse events out of 6.8 million doses of Johnson & Johnson vaccine. That means that nearly 6.8 million Americans have received their shots of Johnson & Johnson without experiencing this adverse reaction. I want to make sure you understand that it is very rare and that we are taking this action out of an abundance of caution.

Frederica Freyberg:

Even without the Johnson & Johnson vaccine still in the mix for now, about a quarter of people in Wisconsin are now fully vaccinated. The focus has mostly been on adult vaccinations, but our next guest says making sure younger children are able to get vaccinated is important to end the COVID-19 pandemic. Dr. Jim Conway is professor of Pediatrics at UW School of Medicine and Public Health and an infectious diseases vaccine expert. Thanks very much for being here.

Jim Conway:

Happy to be here. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

First, on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, what should people who have received it know?

Jim Conway:

I think for people that have received it recently, they need to just be aware of reporting side effect symptoms that they consider particularly severe. So for about the two, three weeks after they get the vaccine any kind of severe headache, respiratory problems, especially difficulty breathing or any particular pains really need to be reported and probably evaluated by a medical professional.

Frederica Freyberg:

How might its pause exacerbate vaccine hesitancy?

Jim Conway:

Yeah, it’s a problem but I think it’s also in some ways got a silver lining. I think this shows how seriously we take safety and even just a handful of cases is enough to trigger the system to say let’s pause and take a second and look at this and make sure we’re not missing anything. Remember that most of the vaccine trials are done on 30, 40, 50,000 people. But if there’s something that’s a one in a million or one in ten million side effect, that’s only going to become apparent after you roll out more and more millions of doses. And at 6.5, 7 million doses of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine, this is still early in the game but I think it’s very appropriate to pause and just make sure that we’re not missing something important.

Frederica Freyberg:

Meanwhile, why do you say that it is vital that children get COVID-19 vaccinations as soon as they are cleared to do so?

Jim Conway:

Yeah. I think it’s important that people realize that early on in this pandemic we understood two things. One is kids don’t seem to get very severe disease and they didn’t seem to be major drivers of transmission within communities. That was partially related to the fact that schools had all gone virtual and everybody was being so very careful and everybody was really mitigating and these kids were really being kept in bubbles. I think what we started to realize is that as we’ve opened things up and kids are more active and more engaged and interactive with others, that they certainly can be infected. While they still don’t seem to do poorly with the infection, they can transmit to others and they actually can cause small outbreaks and transmission within their peer groups, but also back into their families and communities. If we really want to get rid of this once and for all, we need herd immunity to be across the board of all age groups and not continue to have a reservoir of vulnerables who are going to continuing to be circulating the disease.

Frederica Freyberg:

I understand trials of the vaccine for younger children are well underway. When might we be expect to be cleared for use for those?

Jim Conway:

It’s interesting they’re doing these in sort of a step-wise manner. They finished up to the 12 to 15-year-olds for Pfizer. Moderna’s almost done with the 12 to 17-year-olds. So I think the approval for those groups should be sometime in early summer. And so we should be able to start immunizing middle and high school kids before we get back into the fall semester. Then they’re gradually working their way into the six to 11-year-olds and then the three to five-year-olds and then finally the six-month-olds to two-year-olds. I think those groups will probably be more toward the end of 2021. Probably the youngest kids, I would say, probably in early 2022.

Frederica Freyberg:

Pfizer vaccine is cleared for people 16 years and older now. How important is it for that age group to get vaccinated?

Jim Conway:

I think while there is vaccine available and while people have a capacity to accommodate those groups, I think it’s really important to start vaccinating as many of those people as quickly as possible. What the goal should be is if we can get through most of those groups in time that when the EUA – the Emergency Use Authorization – for Pfizer amendment that adds on the 12 to 15-year-olds, that then will be essentially the next group we can tackle. I think what we really want to avoid is bottlenecks where all of a sudden, a large group of people are suddenly eligible and there are still other people straggling along. So right now, I think young adults really need to get moving and get themselves immunized and then the 16 and 17-year-olds, mostly so we can clear the capacity so when 12 to 15-year-olds are approved, we can get them moving over the summer.

Frederica Freyberg:

So Wisconsin is at just more than 25% fully vaccinated. At our current pace, are we winning this race against the variants?

Jim Conway:

Yeah. It’s optimistic, but there’s still a little bit of touchiness over these next two months. I mean these variants are surrounding us. Michigan and Minnesota both have had real flair ups. We’re starting to see transmission now in various areas around Wisconsin. We do need to be aggressive about trying to get more of the population immunized as quickly as possible. While we’re in this immunization ramp-up, we do need people to really buckle down and be patient and continue to do their mitigation activities so we don’t see much more spread. We’ve been very successful in the older individuals in Wisconsin. We’re one of the most successful states in that group. We’ve really protected a lot of the most vulnerable. But now we really need compliance and buy-in from people that are going to be the ones that are unfortunately going to be the ones keep transmitting. We are starting to see a little bump-up in hospitalizations around the state. I think these next two months are really pretty critical.

Frederica Freyberg:

We will be watching. Dr. Conway, thank you very much.

Jim Conway:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

That is our program for tonight. For ongoing coverage on all of the news we’ve covered, go to PBSwisconsin.org and click on the news page. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.