Frederica Freyberg:

Is what’s being described as cyber sabotage on the part of the Russians bad CIA intelligence or even Democrats looking for a scapegoat in a losing election or is it serious and nefarious? We wanted to check in with an expert on Russia. He’s UW-Madison’s Sociology Professor Ted Gerber who’s traveling right now but agreed to join us by phone. He’s in Amsterdam. And professor, thanks for joining us.

Ted Gerber:

Thank you. It’s my pleasure.

Frederica Freyberg:

As an expert on Russia, what’s been your reaction to this cyber intrusion or hacking during the 2016 election that the CIA attributes to Russia and now directly to Vladimir Putin?

Ted Gerber:

My own view is that it’s a very serious threat and I'm not at all surprised that the Russians would take this step. They’ve been known to have tried to manipulate elections in other countries all over the world, but particularly in their own neighborhood in places like Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia. They’ve invested a lot of resources in manipulating their own elections, so the ruling party in Russia is quite adept at the whole concept of interfering in election results. And finally, they’ve accused the U.S., the United States government, of taking measures to try to interfere in the electoral processes in other countries. So from their perspective, it’s a sort of a fair game, tit-for-tat type of message to send to the United States. So I certainly think there’s the claims that the CIA and others have made are very credible. I don’t think those who are skeptical of those claims really have much grounds for their skepticism other than their own partisan self-interest.

Frederica Freyberg:

What does Russia get out of this?

Ted Gerber:

Well, I think Russia — a number of things. So I actually think that probably going into this process, I doubt that the Russians actually thought they could alter the outcome of the election. My suspicion is that going into this, they calculated that Clinton would most likely win, but they could give her some problems. They could cause some concerns. They could undermine her legitimacy and they could raise questions about the legitimacy of the American electoral process. I think they’re absolutely delighted by — so those would have been legitimate goals from their perspective in and of themselves because from their standpoint part of their argument in recent years has been that the west is corrupt. It’s hypocritical. The United States is an aggressive power seeking world domination, and it uses notions such as democracy and human rights and civic freedoms as an excuse to pursue its own political and economic interest. And so by casting doubt on the legitimacy of the American electoral process, the Russians figured that they could further that argument in the court of world public opinion.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, you know, just back to kind of our elections, it’s reported that a super PAC tied to Speaker Paul Ryan used leaked material from hacks in political ads in congressional race, any yet his spokesperson he says he finds foreign intervention in our elections unacceptable. What kind of position does this put leaders in in the U.S.?

Ted Gerber:

Well it does put them in a difficult position. I think without question the partisan interest of those who have benefited from the Russian hacking; that is, Donald Trump, the president-elect, and also various Republicans who have used this information to their advantage, it puts those partisan interests in conflict with the interests of the country. And so I think the media, I think other politicians, I think public leaders need to really ask those who use this material where their loyalties lie, first and foremost. I think, you know, naturally in our hyper-partisan political environment in the United States, politicians have a tendency to frame everything through the question of whether it’s going to help their electoral interests and those of their party. But one would hope, anyway, that at some point the interests of the country and the interests of protecting the country’s institutions would come first. So I think this does raise some very awkward questions for Speaker Ryan and for others, including the President-elect, who has been very dismissive of the possibility that Russia has actively intervened to benefit him in the election. But it does raise serious questions. And I really hope that our social institutions, including the mass media, are up to the task of pushing this issue hard and not letting it dwindle or disappear, because I think it raises fundamental questions about — poses fundamental challenges to our country and our political system.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Professor Ted Gerber, we need to leave it there. Thanks very much for taking time out to join us.

Ted Gerber:

Thank you.