Here & Now

Ron Johnson, Incumbent U.S. Senate Candidate: Full Interview

Frederica Freyberg:

First Ron Johnson, thanks very much for doing this.

Ron Johnson:

Happy to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

We want to ask you first why you think voters should return you to the Senate?

Ron Johnson:

If you take a look at my background. How I grew up. Worked hard all my life. You know a lot of people say they’re for the working man and woman. I’m a working man. And from a very young age, mowing lawns, caddying, paper routes. My family would get together in the basement. We’d smooth out soap balls for little bath boutiques. I got my first tax-paying job at Walgreens grill as a dishwasher for minimum wage. A buck forty-five an hour. Paid my way through college. And then when I had an opportunity, helped start, grow and build a business involved in manufacturing for 30 some years. We export products around the world. And we’ve always maintained that manufacturing base right here in Wisconsin creating Wisconsin jobs. And then when I became panicked for this nation, let’s face it, you take a look at the polls. Americans by a huge majority don’t believe this nation’s on the right path. I certainly didn’t believe it was on the right path in 2010 when I stepped up to the plate, won election. Became a citizen legislator serving as a U.S. Senator. I’ve not only traveled tirelessly around the state. I’ve not only listened to the concerns of Wisconsinites. And I can pretty well sum it up by the way in one word, security. You know not only national and health care security, er, national and homeland security but it’s job security, income security and retirement security and health care security. But I’ve not only listened, I’ve acted. And I’ve actually gotten real results. Very rare in my first term, I’m chairman of a full standing committee of the Senate. Chairman of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. And using a business person’s approach. Trying to find areas of agreement. You know when you sit down at negotiating table of business you don’t start arguing right off the bat. You lay out all the areas of agreement. Well that’s the approach I’ve used as U.S. Senator. And it’s gotten real results. Frederica I’ve, under my chairmanship, I’ve passed 83 pieces of legislation through our committee. 28 now have been signed into law in some way, shape or form. And I’m working on a host of issues. Foreign policy-wise. We were just on the floor of the Senate this Thursday asking for unanimous consent on federal right-to-try law so that the 32 state right-to-try laws can actually be effective and save Americans’ lives. So the host of issues, the dozens of real results, the real accomplishments that I’ve gotten as a citizen legislator using that outsider’s approach to actually get real results. Compare that to Senator Feingold, who let’s face it, is a career politician. 34 years in politics. Has very little to show for it. I mean he has accomplished very little. He had one high profile failure, campaign finance reform. So much of that’s been ruled unconstitutional. So I think it’s just that contrast. Do Wisconsinites want a career politician that really didn’t deliver in 34 years? Or somebody like me, a citizen legislator with a manufacturing, private sector background, in a very short period of time has figured out a way to get real results even in divided government.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let me go ahead and look at our first topic here and that is jobs and the economy. You want to lower taxes and government regulations to boost jobs and the economy and cut federal spending. On the first one, for whom would you lower taxes?

Ron Johnson:

Well first of all what I want is I want is a competitive tax system. What we should do is scrap the entire tax system. Right now 70 some thousand pages costs hundreds of billions of dollars to comply with. So the tax system I would envision would be elegantly simple. Based on two principles. Raise the revenue you need. And do no economic harm. Trot, top, stop trying to socially and economically engineer the tax code. We do a terrible job. Nobody’s that smart to try and direct people’s economic activity so I’m talking about an elegantly simple tax code. And Frederica we have to reduce regulatory burden. We’ve, in my committee, we actually have a sub-committee I set up on regulations. Over regulation. It costs about $2 trillion per year to comply with federal regulations. Now I know we’re getting immune to these massive numbers. Let’s bring it down to a household level. That’s about $14,800 per year per household complying with federal regulations now. Nobody writes a check out for that. That cost manifests itself in reduced opportunity, lower wages. There’s the cause of wage stag–I’m concerned about income inequality. Let’s stop stagnating wages because of over regulation and then it also results in higher prices. The cost of a water heater is increased by $450 per water heater because of federal regulation. So those are self-inflicted wounds on economic growth which is the number one component of the solution is economic growth.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now your opponent says that you back tax breaks for corporations and billionaires over relief for the middle class. How do you respond to that?

Ron Johnson:

He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Point to what I would support. What I don’t want to do is certainly increase taxes. And I’ve never voted for a tax increase. And I actually do want to reduce the tax burden on every American, every Wisconsinite. I want Wisconsinites to keep more of their hard-earned dollars in their pockets but I have no idea what Senator Feingold’s talking about nor does he.

Frederica Freyberg:

On trade, the politics of trade I don’t have to tell you are increasingly complicated. Donald Trump opposes trade deals like the Trans-Pacific Partnership but so does your opponent. Chambers of Commerce support it as does President Obama. What is your position on this TPP?

Ron Johnson:

Well first of all I’m actually doing the hard work of reaching out to people who in Wisconsin would be affected by this trade deal. Talking about their very complex businesses. How they’d be affected by a very complex, very large deal. Over 6,000 pages. So I’m actually doing that hard and thoughtful work of getting their input. And listen I’m happy to have a new president negotiate a better deal but it’s true. We need to keep overseas markets available for agricultural products in Wisconsin as well as our manufacturing projects. In Wisconsin our exports equal our imports. So it’s extremely important we don’t start engaging in trade wars. And so we definitely need to engage in trade around the world but it has to be fair. And I would agree. We have not, we’ve not gotten a good deal in a lot of these trade deals. And we’re being taken advantage of by different countries. And so we have to really take a look at that but again, I do not want to engage in protectionism. We have to keep those overseas markets open for our customers. And I’ll just keep looking at these trade deals until you know up til the point it’s actually presented on the floor of the Senate for a vote.

Frederica Freyberg:

On Social Security you’ve described it as a Ponzi scheme and said that we need to address our deficits in Social Security and Medicare. How?

Ron Johnson:

Well first of all let’s look at the reality of Social Security. Over the next 30 years, Social Security will pay out about $14 trillion more in benefits than it brings in the payroll tax. That’s clearly unsustainable. In about 2010, we actually flipped from actually having more in the payroll tax than we’re paying out in benefits. Now we pay out more in benefits than we receive in the payroll tax. So $14 trillion deficit over the next 30 years. We need to understand it. If you’re going to solve a problem, the first step in solving is you have to, you actually have to admit you have one. And so as I said before, the best way to solve that deficit in Social Security is economic growth. If, right now we’re growing about 2%. Over the last 100 years, the American economy has grown about 3.5%. So we’re way underperforming what the potential of our economy is. If we go from 2 to 3% growth, that’s another $14 trillion of economic activity over the 10 year period. 2 to 4% is $29 trillion. Even with the meager economic growth we’ve had since 2009, revenue to the federal government has increased by $1.1 trillion. There’s the solution to solve the deficit problem in Social Security. Economic growth and again, you have to reduce the regulatory burden. You have to reduce the, you have to have a competitive tax system. You’ve got to start celebrating and incentivizing success rather than demonizing and demagoguing against it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Would you privatize Social Security?

Ron Johnson:

No. I’ve never said that. The claims that the, you know Senator Feingold says I’ve had, are false. They’re just simply not true. What I did make comment is it was a shame that when President Bush was trying to save Social Security back in, during his administration, that he didn’t have some bipartisan support for actually trying to save Social Security back then. He never, he never proposed privatizing Social Security. I know he was talking about some you know certain private accounts for young people for a certain amount of the Social Security. But he never proposed privatization. All I ever said about Social Security in terms of you know that type of solution would be, it’s a shame that President Obama, er, President Bush didn’t get greater traction so we could have addressed that problem of Social Security back when the solution was easier than waiting another 10 years before we’re addressing it now.

Frederica Freyberg:

On health care we know you really don’t like the Affordable–

Ron Johnson:

I really don’t.

Frederica Freyberg:

Care Act.

Ron Johnson:

And I’ll tell you what. Wisconsinites don’t like it either. The ones that have been really harmed by the, let’s face it, the massive consumer fraud that Obamacare was.

Frederica Freyberg:

However it is the law of the land. What now?

Ron Johnson:

Well first of all, let’s honestly talk about what the promises made under Obamacare were and how miserably they’ve failed to be kept. President Obama and let’s face it, Senator Feingold in an op-ed, said that if you like your health care plan, you’d be able to keep it. If you like your doctor, you’d be able to keep it. President Obama says as a candidate, if you pass this health care plan, families will pay up to $2,500 less for health care. Well none of those things came true. Far from it. Janice Fenneman in Spooner, Wisconsin because of Obamacare, her premiums skyrocketed from $276 per month to $787 per month. And that’s not an outlier. That’s pretty typical. Millions of Americans, thousands of Wisconsinites lost their health care plans. There’s a couple with cancer that were on the high-risk pool. They lost that. That was written into the law. President Obama, Senator Feingold knew Americans and Wisconsinites would lose their health care coverage and yet they kept basically lying to Wisconsinites and the American public. So the solution would be, ok it’s in law, and I’ve actually proposed this. Let’s eliminate the individual mandate. Let’s give people the freedom to choice whether or not they’re going to buy insurance first and foremost. Secondly, let’s eliminate and do away with the national definition of health insurance. Let’s turn that back to state regulation. Let states determine what kind of insurance policies can be purchased in their state. And then let consumers purchase across state lines. And then secondly, let’s eliminate the Cadillac tax. I think those three reforms would go a long way toward fixing and repairing the damage of Obamacare.

Frederica Freyberg:

On women’s health, you have a 100% rating from National Right to Life. Your opponent has a 0% rating. Compare your position on abortion, birth control and funding of Planned Parenthood?

Ron Johnson:

Well I’m absolutely for birth control. I actually co-sponsored a bill to allow women to purchase birth control over the counter. So again, a lot of claims to the contrary, completely false. I support birth control. That’s a good way of family planning. No doubt about it. I happen to believe life begins at conception. But I also believe in the exceptions. I’m not going to impose that. So from my standpoint, it’s just a very personal, personal choice. I certainly didn’t run for office on the social issues. I’m really trying to concentrate on the economic issues. Trying to create greater opportunity but you run for an office like this, you have to tell people what you believe.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about funding for Planned Parenthood?

Ron Johnson:

I certainly agree with the Hyde Amendment that no American taxpayer’s money should go toward things like abortion that they find themselves morally wrong. So there’s-certainly want to fund women’s health issues, women’s health clinics but we just should not be funding abortions. There’s no reason for doing that.

Frederica Freyberg:

On national security, how does the U.S. stay safe in the face of ISIS?

Ron Johnson:

First have to strengthen our economy. You know I agree with Admiral Mike Mullen where he said the greatest threat to our national security is our debt and deficit. We gotta bring the deficit down so we can strengthen our economy. So we can have the resources to strengthen our military. And then we actually have to show leadership. I was, for the second time by the way, the U.S. representative, one of the U.S. representatives to the United Nations General Assembly just a couple weeks ago. And also two years ago. One of the points I made was two years ago, I went to New York as that representative. And President Obama gave I think a very strong speech calling on elements, the modern elements within Islam, to repudiate and reject this perversion of their religion. He barely mentioned it in his second speech. Back two years ago, he also laid out America’s goal toward ISIS which was defeat it. That was two years ago. Because we haven’t defeated ISIS, they’ve maintained that territory and that caliphate. They continued to train. They train little children to behead their enemies. We’re concerned about inspired lone wolfs. Now we’re hearing about directed wolf packs in Istanbul and Brussels airport. We just had, in front of my committee, I called the threat hearing with Secretary Jeh Johnson and Director Comey and Director Rasmussen. And as Director Comey said that if we ever get around to defeating ISIS you know because of all the training, because of all the ISIS operatives now, we’re going to see as we clench our fists around ISIS, we’re going to see a diaspora of terrorists unlike we’ve ever seen in human history. So because we have allowed ISIS to continue to exist, they’ve become-they’ve evolved. They’ve metastasized. They’re a growing threat. And you don’t have to just believe me. Listen to CIA Director Brennen who said all of our efforts over the last two years. And Nick Rasmussen basically confirmed this in our hearing. He said all of our efforts have not reduced their terrorist capability and their global reach. They remain a formidable, resilient and largely cohesive enemy. That’s pretty sad after two years of effort.

Frederica Freyberg:

On immigration, what should U.S. policy be on undocumented immigrants?

Ron Johnson:

First we have to secure the border. We’ve got to show the American public that once and for all we’re committed to securing our border for a host of reasons. Public safety. The drug wars for example. National security as well as you have to have a secure border if you can stand up a legal immigration system. Once we do that you know I’ve held multiple hearings on this. Nobody knows for sure but somewhere between 11 and 12 million people in this country illegally. About 8.1 million of those individuals are in the workforce contributing to their community, not creating any problems for anybody. Once we secure our border, I think we need to take a look at those individuals. Have them come forward. Admit they did something wrong. I think my guess is employers would probably pay some kind of fine. Can’t have amnesty. You can’t condone that type of action. But I think once we secure that border, I think we can treat those individuals with real humanity. But we also need to deport criminals. People just feeding off our welfare system. We have to have a legal system based on the principle of what is in America’s best interest and the best interest of American and Wisconsin workers.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so is that a pathway to citizenship?

Ron Johnson:

You know I have yet to have and this may change some day, but I’ve been saying this for quite some time and I’ve yet to have an immigrant in Wisconsin ask for citizenship. If they’re involved in their community and living in the shadows, that’s not good for anybody. They just don’t want us deporting their mom and dad or husband and wife. And we’re not going to be breaking up families. We shouldn’t break up families. But granting citizenship to somebody who’s broken the law, I don’t think that makes any sense. Again for somebody who has broken the law. That’s somebody who’s proactively themselves come in this country illegally. So I don’t think they particularly want it. I don’t think we should offer it. There’s another way of handling this.

Frederica Freyberg:

Should the U.S. allow Syrian refugees into our country?

Ron Johnson:

Well we currently are. We’ve hit the 10,000 limit. As Chairman of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Government Affairs, I’ve viewed my role because President Obama has legal authority to do it, to hold the administration’s feet to the fire and make sure that they don’t take any risks. And we can let Syrian refugees in without taking risks. One of the suggestions I made is let’s establish criteria. 10,000 out of the millions displaced because President Obama’s weakness. It’s pretty easy to just set some criteria. Let’s say women and children, relatives of Syrian-American citizens that have the financial wherewithal to support them. There’d be a good criteria. And then in the vetting process if there’s any doubt whatsoever, don’t let those refugees in. So you just establish those criterias. Don’t take any risks. I would never support a Muslim ban. Let me tell you why. We have for example Iraqi interpreters that saved American soldiers’ lives. Right now we don’t have enough visas for those interpreters. And we’ve had reports that ISIS is slaughtering some of them and their families. So again we’re a very humane nation. There’d be no religious test but we need to vet and not take any risks with people we let in this country legally. And it should be again in the best interest of America and the American workers and Wisconsin workers.

Frederica Freyberg:

On education, PolitiFact rated as mostly true that you’re opposed to all government-assisted student loans. What if a student wants to go to college but can’t afford?

Ron Johnson:

First of all PolitiFact is completely wrong. It was a lot of my efforts that got Lamar Alexander who’s the Chairman of the H.E.L.P. Committee in charge of this in terms of jurisdictionally who was holding up the extension of the Perkins loans for example. Perkins loans. And he was doing it for a good reason. He wanted to consolidate all these loans. Do you realize we got 38 different programs that lower payments to about 10% of discretionary income? A lot of those, depending on what kind of work you do, will actually pay off your loan after 10 or 20 years. We’ve got 38 different programs along this. It’s just simply false. I’m the guy that really pushed Lamar Alexander to lift the hold so we could extend Perkins loans for two years. So listen I want every American who wants a four year degree to have the opportunity to get one. But I’m also concerned and here’s the problem we have to address, is the explosion in costs of higher education. Costs of college have increased at two and a half times the rate of inflation. Why? The federal reserve bank in New York in a study points to the reason. The federal government pouring money into it in the form of student loans. And so we have to understand when the federal government does that, it has very negative, unintended consequences. So we have to really address the unaffordability of college so that college is more accessible. But again it’s completely false that I oppose student loans. I also supported the [unintelligible] stabilization bill that Senator Alexander and Colburn and Burke worked on a bipartisan basis. So again those, those claims are completely false.

Frederica Freyberg:

What’s the best way to get at the national debt?

Ron Johnson:

Economic growth. Again I just laid it out there. Even with the meager economic growth we’ve had, somewhere around 2%, we’ve increased revenue to the federal government by $1.1 trillion dollars since the trough of 2009. We go up to 3%, we go up to 4%, that’s a tremendous amount of added economic activity that will be taxed. Revenue would flow into the federal government. So there’s the most painless, the best way of actually addressing the debt and deficit.

Frederica Freyberg:

On gun control, cities like Milwaukee as you know struggle with gun crime and violence. What’s your position on stricter laws on guns?

Ron Johnson:

We have all kinds of gun control laws. Take a look at the city of Chicago. Some of the strongest gun control laws and look at the level of murders in the city. That’s not the solution. We should enforce the laws we have. I mean the statistics on actually enforcing for example violations of background check are… it’s silly. A couple hundred when you got 70,000 violations. Something like that. So why don’t we enforce the laws that are on our books. Then why don’t we work in a bipartisan fashion. I supported Senator Grassley’s bill that would have put greater penalties and enforce straw purchases. Would have put more resources toward actual enforcement of laws. So, but we couldn’t pass those because, I hate to say it, democrats play politics with this. They want it as an issue rather than actually looking for a solution. I’m all about solutions. I’m all about reaching to the other side. Actually compromising as opposed to being very doctrinaire and demanding you know, basically letting perfect be the enemy of the good.

Frederica Freyberg:

On campaign finance Russ Feingold in defending his broken pledge according to PolitiFact to always to get the major of contributions from Wisconsin says Citizens United completely changed all the rules. And calls your campaign a product of the billionaire corporate benefits of Citizens United. How do you respond to that?

Ron Johnson:

The hypocrisy and phoniness of Senator Feingold on this issue is just jaw dropping. A recent report came out that you know his Progressives United, which let’s face it, that was shadow campaign. He actually tried to outlaw political action committees, which was what Progressives United was back in 1995. You know outlaw them in terms of being involved in elections. And yet it’s almost the first thing he did when he left office. Set up two PACs. Raised about $10 million. Does that figure ring a bell? $10 million. Spent about 5% to 10%–5% to 7% on other candidates. The rest he spent on himself and on his shadow campaign. And now the reports are he actually made a solicitation during you know the Act 10, in the election following Act 10. And said, “Donate to Progressives United and we will back every democrat, member or somebody–candidate running for state assembly, state senate.” Didn’t back any of them. Didn’t donate to any of them. So he’s basically fraudulent claim to his own supporters. So I think there’s the scandal. And I think again him leveling false charges against me is just a way to distract from his own hypocrisy and phoniness on campaign finance.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We have a final question and that is asking you to choose two words. Two words to describe each of the presidential candidates starting with Donald Trump. Two words.

Ron Johnson:

Businessperson. There’s two words.

Frederica Freyberg:

Okay. Hillary Clinton.

Ron Johnson:

Disqualified for office.

Frederica Freyberg:

Okay. Ron Johnson, thanks very much.

Ron Johnson:

Thank you.