Here & Now

Rep. Kerkman On Entitlement Reform Bills

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THE STATE ASSEMBLY THIS WEEK PASSED SEVERAL MEASURES TO CLAMP DOWN ON FRAUD IN THE FOODSTAMP AND UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE PROGRAMS. ONE BILL WOULD REQUIRE FOODSHARE RECIPIENTS TO HAVE PHOTOS ON THEIR ELECTRONIC QUEST DEBIT CARDS USED TO MAKE PURCHASES. ANOTHER WOULD LIMIT THE NUMBER OF REPLACEMENT CARDS RECIPIENTS CAN RECEIVE TO NO MORE THAN FOUR IN 12 MONTHS. AND ANOTHER WOULD EXPUNGE FUNDS ON A QUEST CARD IF IT HASN’T BEEN USED FOR A YEAR. ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FRONT, THE ASSEMBLY MEASURE WOULD MAKE RECIPIENTS INELIGIBLE FOR SEVEN YEARS AFTER THEIR SECOND TIME CONCEALING HOW MANY HOURS THEY WORK OR WAGES THEY MAKE. ALL TOLD, THE COST OF IMPLEMENTING THESE MEASURES IS NEARLY $10 MILLION. SINCE 2013, THE STATE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL HAS RECOVERED MORE THAN $15 MILLION IN OVERPAYMENTS IN THE FOODSHARE AND MEDICAID PROGRAMS COMBINED. REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE SAMANTHA KERKMAN JOINS US TO DISCUSS THE MOVES TO PREVENT FRAUD IN FOODSHARE AND UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE PROGRAMS. REPRESENTATIVE KERKMAN, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

THANKS FOR HAVING US ON.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHY IN YOUR MIND DO WE NEED THESE NEW MEASURES?

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

WELL, I TRULY BELIEVE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO DESERVE THESE PROGRAMS, NEED THESE PROGRAMS, THEY SHOULD BE AVAILABLE, AND WHEN SOMEBODY FRAUDS OUT THE PROGRAM OR IS SELLING THEIR CARDS ON THE STREETS FOR 50 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR AND REPORTING THEM LOST OR MISSING, THAT THERE SHOULD BE SOME CONSEQUENCES. AND AS THE CO-CHAIR OF THE JOINT AUDIT COMMITTEE WITH SENATOR ROB COWLES, WE’VE HAD AN AUDIT ON THE FOODSHARE PROGRAM BACK IN 2012 AND IN 2014 WE HAD ONE ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT PROGRAM. AND IT REALLY BROUGHT TO LIGHT THE FRAUD AND ABUSE THAT ARE GOING ON IN THESE PROGRAMS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ON THE FOODSHARE FRAUD, WHAT IS THE EXTENT OF THAT?

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

WELL, OVER THE YEARS, THERE HAVE BEEN DEFINITELY HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TAKEN OUT OF THE PROGRAM THROUGH PEOPLE SELLING THEIR CARDS, THROUGH PEOPLE USING THEM FOR THINGS THAT — OUT-OF-STATE, WHEN THEY WERE USING IT AT THE SAME TIME IN THE STATE. THE AUDIT REALLY DID SHOW A NUMBER OF ABUSES IN THE PROGRAM. AND WE ARE TRYING TO TOUGHEN IT UP SO THAT, AGAIN, IT’S STRONG FOR THOSE WHO REALLY, TRULY NEED THE PROGRAM. THERE WERE 800,000 PEOPLE ON THE PROGRAM BACK IN 2012 AND THOSE NUMBERS HAVE GONE DOWN. UNEMPLOYMENT ROLLS HAVE GONE DOWN. AND, AGAIN, IT’S JUST TRYING TO MAKE THEM STRONGER FOR THOSE WHO TRULY NEED THE PROGRAMS, THE KIDS IN THE PROGRAM, THE ELDERLY THAT ARE USING THE PROGRAM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DID YOU JUST SAY THAT THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN FRAUD OR HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT INTO THE PROGRAM FOR THE RECIPIENTS?

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

THERE HAS BEEN FRAUD OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. I MISSPOKE THERE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ON THE ONE MEASURE TO PUT A PHOTOGRAPH ON THE QUEST CARD, THAT ELECTRONIC DEBIT CARD THAT PEOPLE USE TO PURCHASE THEIR FOOD, WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT SEVERAL MEMBERS OF A FAMILY OR EVEN ROOMMATES CAN USE THAT CARD TOGETHER? WOULD ALL THEIR PHOTOS HAVE TO BE ON THAT ONE CARD?

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

I WOULD ENVISION A CARD PER PERSON WITH — IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES HAVING MULTIPLE PEOPLE ON THE CARD.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THE COST OF THAT TO IMPLEMENT IS $7.4 MILLION AND THEN $2 MILLION GOING FORWARD EVERY YEAR. BUT YOU THINK THAT’S A JUSTIFIED COST?

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

YOU KNOW, FROM TALKING TO MY CONSTITUENTS, PARTICULAR ONE CALL THAT I GOT FROM SOMEBODY WHO WORKS IN A GROCERY STORE WHO WANTED TO PREVENT SOMEBODY FROM USING THE CARD SHE SUSPECTED FRAUD, SHE THOUGHT THAT THAT WOULD BE OF BENEFIT TO HELP OUT THOSE WHO — THOSE RETAILERS THAT ARE TRYING TO PREVENT FRAUD FROM BEING DONE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THE SECOND MEASURE LIMITS THE NUMBER OF REPLACEMENT CARDS. WHAT HAVE INVESTIGATORS FOUND IN CASES WHERE PEOPLE REPLACE THEIR CARDS MULTIPLE TIMES?

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

I THINK THERE WAS ONE CASE OR A FEW CASES WHERE PEOPLE REPLACED THEIR CARDS MORE THAN 12 TIMES PER YEAR. AND I DON’T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I’VE LOST MY DRIVER’S LICENSE ONCE OR TWICE IN MY LIFETIME. THESE ARE BENEFIT CARDS THAT ARE VERY VALUABLE TO PEOPLE, AND THEY HAVE FOUND THAT THROUGH INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING, GOING OUT AND ACTUALLY THROUGH THE INSPECTOR GENERAL THAT PEOPLE GO OUT AND SELL THEIR CARDS FOR 50 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR. THEY RELINQUISH THEIR PIN NUMBER. SO, YOU KNOW, I’M REALLY TRYING TO STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING BY LIMITING FOUR CARDS PER YEAR SO THAT IT DOESN’T HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND ANOTHER BILL — AND SORRY, WE’RE KIND OF TAKING THESE BILL BY BILL AS WE BUILT IT IN THE LEAD, EXPUNGES MONEY ON A FOODSHARE CARD AFTER A YEAR. UNDER WHAT SCENARIO IS SOMEBODY HOLDING ONTO A CARD AND NOT USING IT?

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

THERE WAS A REPORT DONE UP IN GREEN BAY AREA WHERE SOMEBODY HAD SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS THAT THEY HAD ACCUMULATED OVER THE YEAR NOT UTILIZING THE BENEFIT. AGAIN, SNAP IS A SUPPLEMENTAL PROGRAM TO SUPPLEMENT WHAT A PERSON IS ABLE TO BUY AND PURCHASE. AND IF THEY’RE NOT USING THE BENEFIT, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD BE RELINQUISHING IT OR BRINGING DOWN THE CARD TO ZERO SO THAT IT IS AVAILABLE FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO TRULY NEED IT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW, YOUR BILL WOULD MAKE A RECIPIENT INELIGIBLE FOR UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS FOR SEVEN YEARS IF THEY’RE TWICE CAUGHT CONCEALING WAGES OR HOURS WORKED. WHY SEVEN YEARS?

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

I TRIED TO FIND A HAPPY MEDIUM WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED IN CERTAIN CASES THAT IT WOULD BE A LIFETIME BAN. THE THREE CASES THAT I HIGHLIGHTED ON THE ASSEMBLY FLOOR DURING THE DEBATE. LOLITA LYNN – LOLITA LEE, EXCUSE ME, SHE WAS WORKING – WAS MAKING $70,000 A YEAR AS A NURSE AND REPORTED THAT SHE WAS UNEMPLOYED, WHERE SHE COLLECTED $43,000 WORTH OF UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS. SHE IS CURRENTLY PAYING THE STATE BACK, $12.50 PER WEEK. SHE WILL BE 123 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE ACTUALLY STOPS PAYING BACK THE STATE. AND IT’S FRUSTRATING TO ME THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FRAUDING OUT THE SYSTEM FOR THOSE WHO TRULY NEED IT, THOSE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. AND SO THAT’S WHY I BROUGHT THIS BILL FORWARD.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW, THE 2014 AUDIT OF WHICH YOU SPOKE SHOWED THAT NEARLY 85% OF UNEMPLOYMENT OVERPAYMENTS WAS UNINTENTIONAL. NOW, THE INTENTIONAL FRAUD WAS LIKE 9.5%. AND THAT CONSTITUTED A LOT OF MONEY, MORE MONEY THAN THE UNINTENTIONAL. BUT WHAT CONCERNS DO YOU HAVE THAT UNINTENTIONAL MISTAKES ON APPLICATIONS WILL ENSNARE AND PENALIZE PEOPLE WHEN YOU’RE REALLY TRYING TO CAPTURE THESE FRAUDULENT OVERPAYMENTS LIKE THE ONE YOU JUST SPOKE ABOUT?

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

WELL, THE PROCESS IS ALREADY WORKING, AS THE CHART SHOWS ON PAGE 31 OF THE AUDIT. THOSE 577,000 CLAIMS ARE UNINTENTIONAL MISTAKES WHERE PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE SAID I WORKED 40 HOURS, BUT ONLY REALLY TRULY WORKED 36 HOURS. THE SYSTEM IS SET UP TO CATCH THOSE TYPES OF HONEST MISTAKES. IN THE CASES THAT I’VE HIGHLIGHTED, WHERE LOLITA LEE AND CALVIN SANDERS, $357,000 THAT CALVIN SANDERS FRAUDED OUT THE SYSTEM. AGAIN, THOSE ARE INTENTIONAL CONCEALMENT CASES WHERE PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT THEY ARE UNEMPLOYED, BUT THEY TRULY ARE WORKING AND THEN FRAUDING OUT THE SYSTEM FOR THOSE WHO TRULY NEED THE BENEFIT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. REPRESENTATIVE KERKMAN, THANKS VERY MUCH.

SAMANTHA KERKMAN:

THANK YOU SO MUCH.