Here & Now

Obey, Petri Weigh In On Paul Ryan, Polarized Politics

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BUT FIRST, ON THURSDAY, JANESVILLE REPUBLICAN PAUL RYAN BECAME THE 54TH SPEAKER OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, THE FIRST FROM WISCONSIN.

PAUL RYAN:

BUT LET’S BE FRANK. THE HOUSE IS BROKEN. WE’RE NOT SOLVING PROBLEMS. WE’RE ADDING TO THEM. AND I AM NOT INTERESTED IN LAYING BLAME. WE ARE NOT SETTLING SCORES. WE ARE WIPING THE SLATE CLEAN. [APPLAUSE] NEITHER THE MEMBERS NOR THE PEOPLE ARE SATISFIED WITH HOW THINGS ARE GOING. WE NEED TO MAKE SOME CHANGES, STARTING WITH HOW THE HOUSE DOES BUSINESS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SPEAKER RYAN TAKES THE HOUSE REINS AT ONE OF THE MOST DIVISIVE TIMES IN HIS PARTY’S HISTORY AND A YEAR AHEAD OF A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR. EVEN WHILE CONGRESSMAN RYAN MADE HIS WAY THROUGH THE PROCEDURAL MAZE TO HIS LEADERSHIP POSITION IN WASHINGTON THIS WEEK, TWO VETERAN WISCONSIN U.S. REPRESENTATIVES TOURED THE STATE, APPEARING IN TOWN HALLS, TO DISCUSS THE FUTURE OF PARTY POLITICS. EARLIER I STARTED MY CONVERSATION WITH FORMER CONGRESSMEN DAVID OBEY AND TOM PETRI BY ASKING THEM HOW THEY THINK PAUL RYAN WILL FARE IN HIS NEW POST.

TOM PETRI:

WELL, I THINK PAUL’S TAKING ON A VERY DIFFICULT ASSIGNMENT BUT THE CAUCUS AND I THINK THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IS GOING TO ELECT HIM OR HAS ELECTED HIM. AND HE CAN RISE TO THE CHALLENGE. YOU KNOW, HE’S TAKING THE HIGHEST POSITION IN ELECTIVE OFFICE EVER ACHIEVED BY SOMEONE FROM OUR STATE OF WISCONSIN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

CONGRESSMAN OBEY, HOW DO YOU THINK PAUL RYAN WILL FARE?

DAVID OBEY:

WELL, I THINK THAT DEPENDS AN AWFUL LOT ON THE HARD RIGHT MEMBERS WHO FORCED SPEAKER BOEHNER OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE. WHAT’S GOING ON IS THAT YOU HAVE ABOUT 40 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SAYING TO BOEHNER, WE DON’T WANT YOU TO COMPROMISE ON ANYTHING. AND WE’RE GOING TO BOUNCE YOU FROM THE SPEAKERSHIP IF YOU DO. AND THEN IN ADDITION, YOU’VE GOT ABOUT ANOTHER 80 PEOPLE IN THE CAUCUS WHO ARE AFRAID TO SUPPORT BOEHNER FOR FEAR OF GETTING A PRIMARY OPPONENT. AND SO I THINK, I MEAN THEY NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT PAUL RYAN IS NOT A PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL MODERATE DEMOCRAT. THAT PAUL RYAN IS A COMMITTED CONSERVATIVE, AND HIS AGENDA AND HIS BUDGET RESOLUTION INCLUDES CUTTING BACK SIGNIFICANTLY IN EDUCATION FUNDING, PRIVATIZING MEDICARE, THINGS LIKE THAT. THAT ISN’T THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC AGENDA. AND THE PEOPLE WHO BOUNCED BOEHNER OUT NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THEY HAVE A COMMITTED CONSERVATIVE IN PAUL RYAN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

CONGRESSMAN PETRI, JUST ANOTHER BRIEF QUESTION ON PAUL RYAN. WHAT ADVICE MIGHT YOU GIVE HIM?

TOM PETRI:

WELL, I THINK HE’S DOING A GOOD JOB IN SETTING A POSITIVE TONE. I THINK THAT PEOPLE IN THE CAUCUS HAVING HAD THE CONTENTION THAT THEY HAD WHICH LED TO SPEAKER BOEHNER’S RESIGNATION WILL NOW BE MORE INCLINED TO FOLLOW HIS LEADERSHIP, ESPECIALLY IF, AS HE SAID HE WOULD, HE’S GOING TO BE TRYING TO PROVIDE POSITIVE LEADERSHIP, NOT JUST BE A WRECKING TEAM OR AN OPPOSITION PARTY. THE REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE ARE IN THE MAJORITY. AND I THINK PEOPLE EXPECT THEM TO LEAD AND MAKE POSITIVE PROPOSALS, TRY TO UNIFY PEOPLE BEHIND THEM, PASS THEM IN THE HOUSE AND IF OTHER PEOPLE OBJECT, THAT’S THEIR PROBLEM, BUT I THINK THE COUNTRY WILL APPRECIATE POSITIVE LEADERSHIP.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BACK TO A WIDER PERSPECTIVE, A RECENT WISCONSIN SURVEY POLL FOUND THAT WISCONSINITES ARE INCREASINGLY POLARIZED. I DON’T EVEN KNOW HOW THAT COULD BE POSSIBLE, BUT CONGRESSMAN OBEY, WHY IN YOUR MIND DID THIS POLARIZATION HAPPEN?

DAVID OBEY:

WELL, I THINK BECAUSE — I THINK IT STARTED WITH THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL THAT LINDEN JOHNSON PASSED A LONG TIME AGO. WHEN HE PASSED THAT, HE MADE IT DIFFICULT FOR THE DEMOCRATS TO CONTINUE TO CARRY THE SOUTH. THE SOUTH GRADUALLY MOVED INTO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. THEY FORMED AN ALLIANCE IN THAT PARTY WITH THE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN BASE, WHICH WAS THE BUSINESS-ORIENTED WING OF THAT PARTY. AND FOR A WHILE, IT WORKED. BUT AFTER THE ECONOMY WENT TO POT, JUST BEFORE PRESIDENT OBAMA TOOK OVER, WE HAD A NUMBER OF TEA PARTY TYPES ELECTED AND THEY SIMPLY FELT THAT BECAUSE THEY HAD CAMPAIGNED ON A VERY RIGID ANTI-GOVERNMENT PLATFORM THAT EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE CONGRESS NEEDED TO FOLLOW SUIT. AND A LOT OF REPUBLICANS DIDN’T WANT TO DO THAT. SO AS A RESULT, YOU’VE HAD INCREDIBLE POLARIZATION. I THINK ALSO, FRANKLY, CHANGES IN THE NEWS MEDIA HAVE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. TODAY YOU HAVE LIBERALS WATCH MSNBC. CONSERVATIVES WATCH FOX. IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT TO THINK, YOU WATCH CNN. AND THE FACT IS THAT IT MEANS THAT PEOPLE SELF-SELECT THEIR NEWS. THEY NEVER HAVE THEIR OWN OPINIONS CHALLENGED. AND THAT MAKES IT EASIER TO PROVIDE A POLARIZED POLITICAL SYSTEM, IN ADDITION TO WHICH THE WAY WE REDISTRICT STATE LEGISLATIVE MEMBERS AND THE CONGRESS IS A VERY LARGE CONTRIBUTOR. WHEN I WENT TO CONGRESS, WE HAD OVER A THIRD OF THE HOUSE MEMBERS THAT WERE IN COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS. TODAY THAT’S DROPPED TO ABOUT 10%. IF 90% OF THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS ARE LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS, ARE SAFE NO MATTER WHAT THAT OCCUPANT DOES BY WAY OF VOTING, THEN THERE’S NO INCENTIVE TO CROSS OVER AND WORK WITH EITHER INDEPENDENTS OR PEOPLE IN THE OTHER PARTY. AND I THINK ALL OF THOSE HAVE MADE POLITICS A MUCH NASTIER PROFESSION THAN IT WAS YEARS AGO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

CONGRESSMAN PETRI, DO YOU SHARTE THAT PERSPECTIVE?

TOM PETRI:

YEAH, I DO EXCEPT THAT I WOULD SAY THAT IN MY MIND, THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THE POLARIZATION THAT WE SEE IS MORE OF A RETURN TO NORMAL IN THE ERA OF GOOD FEELING WAS AN EXCEPTION IN AMERICAN POLITICS. IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY, WE’VE HAD PERIODS IN THE 19TH CENTURY AND 18TH CENTURY THAT WERE VERY, VERY CONTENTIOUS. AND OF COURSE WHEN PEOPLE WERE NOT ABLE TO FIND COMMON GROUND OR WORK TOGETHER AND FELT IT WAS IMMORAL TO WORK WITH PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE, SOME 600,000 AMERICANS LOST THEIR LIVES IN OUR CIVIL WAR. IT COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED, BUT EFFORTS TO DO THAT FINALLY LOST FAVOR WITH THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. AND THEY DIDN’T HAVE THE WISDOM AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME TO REALIZE THAT THEY’D HAVE TO WORK MORE GRADUALLY ON SOME OF THE ISSUES IF THEY WERE GOING TO AVOID OPEN-OUT CONFLICT. POLITICS IS A DIFFICULT BUSINESS. PEOPLE DO NOT AGREE. THEY HAVE VERY STRONG DIFFERENCES AND FEELINGS, BUT THE WAY TO DEAL WITH THAT IS NOT TO JUST PICK UP YOUR MARBLES OR BASH THE OTHER PERSON. THE WAY TO DEAL WITH IT IS TO LISTEN, TO SEE IF THERE’S SOME AREAS WHERE YOU CAN WORK TOGETHER AND AVOID SPIRALING INTO DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

CONGRESSMAN PETRI, STAYING WITH YOU ON THIS NEXT QUESTION, DOES THIS PARTISAN DIVIDE DRIVE GOOD POLITICIANS OUT OF THE PROCESS AS WELL AS DRIVING THE PUBLIC OUT OF ENGAGEMENT WITH IT?

TOM PETRI:

WELL, IT PROBABLY — I THINK IT MIGHT ATTRACT SOME GOOD PEOPLE TOO, FIGURE THEY’RE NOT GOING TO PUT UP WITH IT ANYMORE AND WANT TO JUST GET IN THERE AND WORK TO GET SOMETHING POSITIVE ACCOMPLISHED. BUT WE HAVE CERTAINLY SEEN VERY CONTENTIOUS PRIMARIES IN BOTH PARTIES AS PEOPLE SAY, WELL, IF YOU’RE AN INCUMBENT YOU MUST BE BAD SOMEHOW. PART OF IT’S JUST PLAIN ANTI-INCUBMENCY AS WE’VE SEEN SOME OF THE PRIMARIES EARLY AT THE PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

CONGRESSMAN OBEY, YOU’RE NOT KNOWN, WEREN’T KNOWN FOR BEING A SHRINKING VIOLET WHEN IT CAME TO ESPOUSING YOUR POLICY POSITIONS, BUT WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN YOUR MIND BETWEEN KIND OF VOCIFEROUSNESS AND POLARIZATION?

DAVID OBEY:

WELL, POLITICIANS HAVE TWO JOBS. THE FIRST JOB IS TO DEFINE THEIR DIFFERENCES WITH THEIR OPPOSITION, SO THAT WHEN PEOPLE GO INTO THE VOTING BOOTH, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY’RE GOING TO GET WHEN THEY ELECT A REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT OR SOMEBODY ELSE. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THAT’S ONLY HALF THE JOB. AFTER YOU DEFINED YOUR DIFFERENCES AND YOU’VE GOTTEN ELECTED AND YOU’RE IN A POLITICAL BODY WITH 435 PEOPLE, YOU’VE GOT TO LOOK FOR WAYS TO RECONCILE THOSE DIFFERENCES. AND THE PEOPLE WHO DUMPED JOHN BOEHNER WERE VERY GOOD AT DEFINING THEIR DIFFERENCES. THEY WEREN’T VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN RECONCILING THEIR DIFFERENCES. AND THAT LEADS TO PROBLEMS FOR THE COUNTRY.

TOM PETRI:

I JUST WANT TO IT ADD. THE FACT YOU MIGHT BE IN A DIFFERENT POLITICAL PARTY AND YOU MAY DIFFER ON A LOT OF ISSUES DOESN’T MEAN THAT YOU DON’T ALSO AGREE ON A LOT OF ISSUES. FOR EXAMPLE, PEOPLE FROM THE SAME STATE DELEGATION IN DIFFERENT — TEXAS AND A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT STATES AROUND THE COUNTRY WORK TOGETHER VERY, VERY CLOSELY ACROSS PARTISAN LINES TO ADVANCE THE INTERESTS THAT THEY CAN AGREE ON THAT WILL BENEFIT THEIR STATES. AND I DON’T THINK THAT’S A BAD THING FOR THEM. WE OUGHT TO BE DOING MORE OF IT HERE IN OUR OWN STATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

HOW DO YOU THINK OR WHY DO YOU THINK WISCONSIN ISN’T AS MUCH LIKE THAT?

DAVID OBEY:

IT USED TO BE WHEN I WAS IN THE LEGISLATURE, WARREN KNOWLES WAS GOVERNOR. HE WAS A MODERATE REPUBLICAN. THE REPUBLICANS CONTROLLED THE STATE SENATE. BOB KNOWLES, THE GOVERNOR’S BROTHER RAN THE STATE SENATE. HE WAS A SUPERB LEGISLATOR. THE DEMOCRATS CONTROLLED THE ASSEMBLY AND WE STILL GOT A HUGE AMOUNT DONE EVEN THOUGH WE HAD DIVIDED GOVERNMENT. IT DEPENDS ON THE MINDSET OF THE PEOPLE IN POLITICS IN THE FIRST PLACE. IT DEPENDS ON THE POLITICAL ERA AT THE TIME. AND AS I SAY, WHEN MOST OF THE DISTRICTS NOW IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE, FOR INSTANCE, ARE TOTALLY SAFE FOR ONE PARTY OR THE OTHER, THEN THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO WORK ACROSS THE AISLE. THERE’S NO INCENTIVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT SOMEBODY ELSE DOES. ALSO THESE PEOPLE WHO BOUNCED BOEHNER NEED TO UNDERSTAND, HE HAD — ANYBODY IN THE LEADERSHIP HAS A DIFFERENT RESPONSIBILITY THAN RANK AND FILE MEMBERS OF THE BODY. IF YOU’RE A SECOND TERMER, YOU DON’T HAVE MANY RESPONSIBILITIES. YOU CAN STAND UP AND YOU CAN SCREAM FROM THE ROOFTOPS ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE DONE, BUT IF YOU’RE THE SPEAKER OR IF YOU’RE A COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN, YOU’VE GOT TO WORK WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER PEOPLE TO GET TOGETHER — PUT TOGETHER A PRODUCT THAT PRODUCED 218 VOTES. AND THAT MEANS YOU HAVE TO WORK THINGS OUT. YOU EVEN HAVE TO VOTE FOR A LOT OF WRINKLES THAT YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO, JUST TO GIVE THE OTHER GUY ENOUGH ROOM TO COME ON BOARD.

TOM PETRI:

WHEN DAVE AND I CAME IN TO WISCONSIN POLITICS, PEOPLE WE BOTH LOOKED UP TO WERE MEL LAIRD AND GAYLORD NELSON. AND THEY HAD SERVED TOGETHER IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND STATE SENATE, WOULD GO AT IT TOOTH AND NAIL ON THE FLOOR OF THE STATE SENATE AND THEN GO OFF OF AFTERWARD AND SOCIALIZE TOGETHER. THAT WAS THE SPIRIT THAT I THINK EACH OF US TRIED TO DO IN WORKING WITH OTHERS IN OUR DELEGATION. IF WE COULD HELP EACH OTHER, WHETHER IT’S AN ISSUE INVOLVING THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN IN MADISON IN SOMEONE ELSE’S DISTRICT OR UP IN NORTHERN WISCONSIN OR IN THE FOX VALLEY THAT I REPRESENTED, WE’RE ALL BETTER OFF.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I WANT TO ASK, SINCE YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT KIND OF THE GOOD OLD DAYS, RIGHT, WOULD EACH OF YOU RUN FOR CONGRESS IN TODAY’S WORLD AS IT IS?

TOM PETRI:

I WOULD. I THINK IF A PERSON HAS A CHANCE TO ENGAGE IN PUBLIC SERVICE AND MAKE A CONTRIBUTION, THEY OUGHT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT AND DO IT. THERE’S ALSO AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE IF YOU’VE BEEN IN FOR 35 YEARS OR 42 YEARS OR SOMETHING, IT’S TIME TO GIVE SOMEONE ELSE A CHANCE. BUT IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION. BUT I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT RULE OUT, EVER. IN FACT, WE HAVE BEEN GOING AROUND THE STATE, DAVE AND I, TRYING TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GET MORE INVOLVED RATHER THAN JUST SITTING ON THE SIDELINES AND COMPLAINING IF THEY DON’T LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING.

DAVID OBEY:

WE NEED PEOPLE INVOLVED BECAUSE THERE ARE LOTS OF VERY POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THIS SOCIETY WHO WANT GOVERNMENT TO BEND TO THEIR WILL. AND UNLESS YOU GET PEOPLE, AVERAGE CITIZENS TO COUNTER THAT BY GETTING INVOLVED THEMSELVES, THIS COUNTRY IS IN BIG TROUBLE. THE MAIN REASON THAT I QUIT IS BECAUSE I REPRESENTED A MARGINAL DISTRICT. AND I RECOGNIZED AFTER THESE GOD AWFUL SUPREME COURT DECISIONS ON CAMPAIGN FINANCE THAT IF I WANTED TO STAY, I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO SPEND AT LEAST 50% OF MY TIME EVERY BLESSED DAY DIALING FOR DOLLARS, RAISING MONEY AS A GLORIFIED TELEMARKETER. I SIMPLY DIDN’T WANT TO DO THAT. AND SO WE’VE GOT TO, IN ADDITION TO CHANGING THE WAY THAT WE REDISTRICT PEOPLE, WE ALSO HAVE TO — WHAT THE COUNTRY NEEDS IS TO ELECT THE PRESIDENT FOR AT LEAST THE NEXT 12 YEARS WHO WILL VOTE TO, I MEAN APPOINT THE RIGHT KIND OF PEOPLE TO THE FEDERAL SUPREME COURT SO THEY WILL REVERSE SOME OF THESE GOD AWFUL CAMPAIGN FINANCE DECISIONS THAT HAVE MADE MONEY ALL POWERFUL TODAY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE. CONGRESSMAN PETRI, CONGRESSMAN OBEY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

DAVID OBEY AND TOM PETRI:

THANK YOU.