Frederica Freyberg:

Former police chief David Couper and his policing policies had a major influence on a young Madison officer, an officer who would go on to become Madison’s police chief. Former police chief Noble Wray is currently the interim leader of the Urban League of Greater Madison. He joins our discussion this week to talk about race and economic disparity, and an apparent deep mistrust of police among minorities, all of which seem to fuel tensions in Missouri and across the country. Chief, thanks very much for being here.

Noble Wray:

Thank you. Thanks for the invitation.

Frederica Freyberg:

You know, I was struck this week, as was the country, listening to US Attorney General Eric Holder talk about how even when he was a federal prosecutor walking the streets in Washington he would be stopped by police or his car would be searched. Are these things that happened to you?

Noble Wray:

Yeah. I mean, when I applied for the Madison Police Department, that was the one issue that I was confronted with, and it was almost an issue of me being able to get on the department. I was asked during the interview, Noble, don’t you think that the Milwaukee Police Department has paid too much attention to you? So it’s part of what you struggle with as an African-American male growing up in America.

Frederica Freyberg:

So if that’s the case for people like you and the US attorney general, what is it like for young African-American men in places like Ferguson, and so many other places?

Noble Wray:

It’s difficult. There’s no two ways about it. I have two sons and I would tell my sons, you know, to listen, to cooperate, don’t run. But it is something that you will have that conversation. My parents had that conversation with me. It is– if you’re contacted, you know, do whatever you can not to intensify the situation. And it’s part of life. It’s part of life living in America.

Frederica Freyberg:

And Holder described it as leaving him angry and upset. So how does a police department effectively kind of work with a population which might be in a perpetual state of anger and upset, and mistrusting police authority?

Noble Wray:

Well, the first thing after watching what took place in Ferguson, it was clear to me that you can’t wait until the incident erupts, the flashpoint. My observations were that you need to be working in advance. You need to have relationships with the community. That takes a long time. And it’s always very vulnerable. But it takes a long time. People have to understand police officers from their perspective and then viceversa. And that takes a commitment to building relationships. You cannot be there when there’s just a call, an incident or problem.

Frederica Freyberg:

Does it make a difference if a police force is overwhelmingly white compared to the population that they’re policing?

Noble Wray:

Absolutely. And I think it makes a difference in three ways. One is credibility. If you’re looking at a department and it does not look like you or reflect that community, you have a credibility problem. Two is a diverse department within provides you with different insights and perspective. And, number three, a part that’s missed in this whole thing is that when you have a diverse department, you get input from a community, a diverse community. The more input you get, the more a department is able to reflect the community’s views.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now I know that David Couper was among those who started integrating Madison’s police force. How well did that work along with his methods in this city?

Noble Wray:

That worked very well. I think what really pushed us into a point where we could connect with the community– I mean, I know a number of people remember back in the ’80s we had a number of neighborhoods that could serve as a flashpoint anytime in Madison. There were about eight or nine neighborhoods. The fact that we put neighborhood officers and willing to commit to a relationship, willing to commit to a partnership, where the people in the community understood the officer as a person, they understood– They knew their name and then viceversa. And they worked on problems together. That made, I think, the biggest difference, along with diversifying the agency.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, this was a specific approach, a method on the part of the Madison Police Department. Are other departments, other chiefs of police across the country listening to that message that this department tried to engender?

Noble Wray:

A lot of departments follow the community policing philosophy out of the ’80s. It takes a commitment to being willing to, you know, to put police officers where they’re not just constantly responding to calls, but to work proactively. That’s a heavy investment. But you get a return on your investment when the community is willing to do something that they were not willing to do in this incident in Ferguson and that is, you’re always going to meet a time of truth and choice. And it is up to the community to decide if they’re going to have faith in you and give you an opportunity to explain yourself. And that’s what most departments call being able to pull from the well of trust.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Noble Wray, thank you very much.

Noble Wray:

Thank you.