FREDERICA FREYBERG:

COAL OR COMBINED COAL/GAS MAKE UP THE MAJORITY OF WISCONSIN’S POWER PLANTS. HYDRO, NUCLEAR AND WIND ARE OTHER SOURCES. GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER RANG ALARM BELLS THIS WEEK SAYING CUSTOMER RATES WILL GO UP AS EMISSION LEVELS GO DOWN, CALLING THE E.P.A. REGS A CHAIN SAW TO THE ECONOMY. SCOTT MANLEY JOINS US NEXT. HE’S THE VICE PRESIDENT FOR GOVERNMENT RELATIONS AT WISCONSIN MANUFACTURERS AND COMMERCE. AND THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

SCOTT MANLEY:

THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO HOW WOULD THIS CLEAN POWER PLAN KILL MANUFACTURING JOBS IN WISCONSIN?

SCOTT MANLEY:

IT IS PRETTY SIMPLE. BECAUSE IT WOULD CAUSE OUR ELECTRICITY PRICES TO SKYROCKET. AND IF YOU WANT TO BE COMPETITIVE AS A MANUFACTURER, NOT JUST IN THIS STATE OR THIS COUNTRY OR — BUT GLOBALLY, YOU’VE GOT TO HAVE ACCESS TO AFFORDABLE ENERGY. AND THE REASON WHY IS BECAUSE ENERGY COSTS FOR A MANUFACTURER ARE OFTEN IN THE TOP TWO, THREE OR FOUR COSTS THAT THEY FACE AS A BUSINESS. AND SO IF WE TAKE ONE OF THOSE MAJOR COST DRIVERS AND, YOU KNOW, MAKE IT SKYROCKET THROUGH A REGULATION LIKE THIS, IT IS GOING TO MAKE IT MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT TO BE COMPETITIVE AS A MANUFACTURER AND TO KEEP MANUFACTURING JOBS HERE. WE THINK THIS RULE WILL CAUSE MANUFACTURING JOBS TO GO OVERSEAS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND WHY DOES THIS PLAN HIKE THE COST OF ELECTRICITY?

SCOTT MANLEY:

BECAUSE IT TAKES ABUNDANT AND AFFORDABLE SOURCES OF ENERGY LIKE COAL AND SAYS WE’RE GOING TO MAKE IT ECONOMICALLY IMPOSSIBLE AS A PRACTICAL MATTER FOR YOU TO USE THAT. WE’RE GOING TO REQUIRE YOU TO REPLACE AFFORDABLE ENERGY WITH EXPENSIVE ENERGY. I’LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF THAT. I JUST SAW A STUDY THIS WEEK THAT SUGGESTED THAT THE COST OF INSTALLING NEW WIND ENERGY IS THREE TIMES AS EXPENSIVE AS UTILIZING EXISTING COAL. AND THAT’S AN IMPORTANT DATA POINT FOR A STATE LIKE WISCONSIN. BECAUSE WE GET OVER HALF OF OUR ELECTRICITY FROM COAL RIGHT NOW AND ELECTRICAL RATE PAYERS HAVE INVESTED AN AWFUL LOT OF MONEY IN COAL THAT THIS RULE APPEARS TO WANT TO CUT US OFF FROM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SUPPORTERS OF THIS PLAN, THOUGH, SAY IT WILL SAVE RATE PAYERS MONEY BY INVESTING IN ENERGY EFFICIENCY WHICH LOWERS HOMEOWNERS AND BUSINESS OWNERS’ ENERGY BILLS.

SCOTT MANLEY:

WELL, LOOK, WE HAD OUR STATE UTILITY REGULATORS DO A STUDY OF THIS RULE SOMETIME AGO. THEY CAME UP WITH A COST RANGE FROM $4 BILLION TO $13 BILLION. IT WAS A DIFFERENT VERSION OF THE RULE. BUT THIS RULE GOT MORE STRINGENT FOR WISCONSIN THAN THE PREVIOUS VERSION. SO WE THINK IT IS GOING TO BASE EVEN MORE EXPENSIVE. THERE IS NO WAY THAT WHEN UTILITIES BEAR THESE COSTS THEY AREN’T GOING TO PASS THEM ALONG TO RATE PAYERS. I MEAN THE REALITY IS THAT ELECTRIC PRICES WILL GO UP FOR BUSINESSES AND FOR FAMILIES AND BY AN AWFUL LOT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO THIS HAS BECOME AN ARGUMENT, THEN, OF JOBS VERSUS THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE OR THE ENVIRONMENT?

SCOTT MANLEY:

NO, IT DOESN’T BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY DON’T NEED THIS RULE TO HAVE CLEAN AIR. WE HAVE SMOG STANDARDS, SOOT STANDARDS, CARBON MONOXIDE STANDARDS IN PLACE RIGHT NOW THAT POWER PLANTS AND OTHER BUSINESSES ARE REQUIRED TO MEET. THESE ARE HEALTH-BASED STANDARDS THAT PROTECT HUMAN HEALTH. THIS RULE — AND LET’S TALK ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THIS RULE IS AN INCREDIBLY INEFFECTIVE RULE AS IT RELATES TO GLOBAL WARMING AND CLIMATE CHANGE. USING THE E.P.A.’S OWN DATA, THIS RULE WHEN FULLY IMPLEMENTED IS PREDICTED TO REDUCE GLOBAL TEMPERATURES BY 0.02 DEGREES AND TO REDUCE SEA LEVEL BY ONE-ONEHUNDREDTH OF AN INCH. THAT’S THE THICKNESS OF THREE SHEETS OF PAPER. SO A LOT OF US ARE SITTING HERE THINKING WHY ARE WE GOING TO SPEND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND PUT THOUSANDS OF MIDDLE CLASS FACTORY WORKERS OUT OF A JOB SO THAT WE CAN HAVE A NEGLIGIBLE IMPACT ON GLOBAL TEMPERATURE?

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE OUGHT TO BE REDUCTIONS IN CARBON EMISSIONS?

SCOTT MANLEY:

YOU KNOW, WE’RE ALREADY ON THAT PATH. I MEAN WE HAVE — IF YOU LOOK AT WISCONSIN AND THE UNITED STATES AS A WHOLE, OUR CARBON EMISSION PROFILE OVER THE LAST DECADE, IT’S ALREADY GOING DOWN. WE DON’T NEED A RULE LIKE THIS, AN OPPRESSIVE RULE LIKE THIS THAT’S GOING TO KILL JOBS IN ORDER TO GET THERE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU THINK THERE OUGHT TO BE MORE RETRO FITS AND OTHER MEASURES TO REDUCE IT MORE, THOUGH, THAN WHERE IT’S ALREADY REDUCED FROM?

SCOTT MANLEY:

WELL THE PROBLEM IS YOU CAN’T RETROFIT REDUCTIONS IN CARBON DIOXIDE BECAUSE THE TECHNOLOGY ISN’T THERE RIGHT NOW. THE E.P.A. RULE DOESN’T CONTEMPLATE RETROFITTING FACILITIES. IT CONTEMPLATES SHUTTING DOWN COAL AND REPLACING IT WITH THINGS LIKE WIND AND SOLAR. THE PROBLEM WITH WIND AND SOLAR IS, THEY’RE NOT STEADY PROVIDERS OF ELECTRICITY. THEY’RE INTERMITTENT. IF THE WIND ISN’T BLOWING OR THE SUN ISN’T SHINING YOU DON’T GET ELECTRICITY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ON THIS VERY BASIC POINT, DOES WMC BELIEVE THAT CLIMATE CHANGE RESULTS FROM HUMAN ACTIONS?

SCOTT MANLEY:

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENT SIGNS OUT THERE ON THAT. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE GLOBAL WARMING PROPONENTS CAN’T EXPLAIN IS THAT WHY FOR THE LAST 18 YEARS WE HAVE SEEN FLAT TEMPERATURES EVEN WHILE OUR CARBON DIOXIDE EMISSIONS GLOBALLY HAVE BEEN STEADILY INCREASING? THEIR MODELS CANNOT EXPLAIN WHY THE GREENHOUSE EFFECT HAS BEEN ON HOLD FOR THE PAST 18 YEARS AND WE HAVE NOT SEEN GLOBAL — AVERAGE GLOBAL TEMPERATURES INCREASE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS NO?

SCOTT MANLEY:

WELL I THINK IT’S AN IMPORTANT QUESTION AND WE DON’T THINK IT MAKES SENSE TO REARRANGE OUR ENTIRE ECONOMY AND PUT PEOPLE OUT OF WORK IN RESPONSE TO PREDICTIONS ABOUT WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE WHEN THOSE MODELS HAVEN’T BEEN ACCURATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE. SCOTT MANLEY, THANKS VERY MUCH.

SCOTT MANLEY:

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.