Here & Now

Koval and Johnson Discuss Robinson Decision

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WHAT CAN BE DONE MOVING FORWARD TO BUILD TRUST, COOPERATION AND A SENSE OF COMMUNITY? NOT ONLY HERE IN MADISON, BUT ACROSS OUR STATE? THIS WEEK TO HELP US SHED LIGHT AND UNDERSTANDING ON THE ISSUES AT PLAY BETWEEN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND MINORITY COMMUNITIES, WE HAVE INVITED MADISON POLICE CHIEF MIKE KOVAL TO JOIN US. HE’S A MADISON NATIVE WHO FIRST JOINED THE FORCE IN 1983 BEFORE BECOMING CHIEF ONE YEAR AGO. AND MICHAEL JOHNSON C.E.O. FOR THE BOYS AND GIRLS CLUB OF DANE COUNTY, HAS BEEN PROACTIVE IN HIS WORK WITH THE COMMUNITY AMD REACTION TO THIS RECENT SHOOTING AND THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR BEING HERE.

KOVAL AND JOHNSON:
THANKS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WE JUST HEARD ON THIS PROGRAM, FROM EVERETT MITCHELL AND HIS LAST WORDS IN THAT INTERVIEW WERE, THAT NOBODY SEEMS TO HAVE A SENSE OF TRUST IN THE SYSTEM. CHIEF KOVAL, DO YOU THINK THAT THE INVESTIGATION BY AN OUTSIDE AGENCY, IN THIS CASE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HELPS IMPROVE TRUST OF THE OUTCOME?

MIKE KOVAL:
I DO. I THINK UP UNTIL A YEAR AGO LAST APRIL, THE ALTERNATIVE WAS THAT THE DEPARTMENT COULD AGRUABLY DO ITS OWN INVESTIGATION. SO, I HAVE A SENSE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK IT’S NOT A BOLD ENOUGH STEP BUT I DO THINK IT IS AN AFFIRMATIVE STEP TO GO ONE STEP REMOVED TO A THIRD-PARTY SET OF EYES TO DO THAT STUFF WITHOUT ANY INTERFERENCE OR COLLUSION OR EFFECTS OF THAT. SO I THINK WE ARE MAKING STRIDES TOWARDS BEING MORE TRANSPARENT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
MICHAEL JOHNSON, IS IT YOUR SENSE THE WAY THE INVESTIGATION WAS CONDUCTED MATTERED THOUGHT TO THOSE WHO STILL BELIEVE THE OFFICER’S USE OF DEADLY FORCE WAS NOT LAWFUL?

MICHAEL JOHNSON:
YEAH, I THINK AFTER WHAT HAPPENED IN BALTIMORE THAT PROBABLY GAVE SOME PEOPLE SOME HOPE THAT A DIFFERENT OUTCOME WOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE. BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN I TALK TO PARENTS AND YOUNG PEOPLE, I THNK THEY ALL KNEW WHAT THE OUTCOME WAS GOING TO BE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WHY DO YOU THINK?

MICHAEL JOHNSON:
I THINK WHEN YOU SEE THESE SITUATIONS HAPPEN ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, TYPCIALLY IT ALWAYS – 9939 PERCENT OF THE TIME – GOES IN THE OFFICER’S FAVOR. AND SO, WHEN YOUNG PEOPLE AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR SEE THESE VIDEOS AND TIME-AFTER-TIME, THE OFFICERS GET OFF, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE LOSE FAITH IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SO CHIEF, HOW HARD IS IT TO COUNTER THAT?

MIKE KOVAL:
IT’S VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD A NUMBER OF OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS IN MY OWN COMMUNITY SO I HAVE TO OWN THOSE. I CAN’T JUST BLAME IT ON THE NATIONAL NARRATIVES THAT ARE BEING DICTATED ELSEWHERE. BUT I THINK, TOGETHER, BECAUSE WE GET SATURATED WITH IT, THERE’S ALWAYS ANOTHER CATASTROPHIC EVENT, IN SOME MARKET, ALMOST IT SEEMS LIKE ON A WEEKLY BASIS. SO WHEN YOU GET THAT INFUSION OF THAT CONSTANT DRUMROLL, IT IS EASY TO SEE WHY THE GAP IN TRUST BEGINS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
LOTS OF TALK AROUND USE OF FORCE, ON THE PART OF THE POLICE OFFICERS. IS THAT BEING RETHOUGHT IN YOUR POLICE DEPARTMENT? ARE YOU CONSIDERING RETRAINING OR NEW TRAINING?

MIKE KOVAL:
WE’VE ALWAYS BEEN COMMITTED TO TACTICS OF DE-ESCALATION AND DIFFUSION AND, CRISIS INTERVENTION, AND INCORPORATING DISTANCE AND SPACE AND COVER BEFORE YOU ENGAGE. SO I DO THINK THERE WILL FOREVER BE MORE AND MORE COMMITMENTS TO LESS LETHAL OPTIONS AND OTHER WAYS TO MEDIATE, PRIOR TO ACTUALLY REACHING THAT THRESHOLD.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WHAT ABOUT THIS ISSUE, EVERETT MITCHELL SPOKE TO IT IN HIS INTERVIEW, ABOUT QUOTE “GOING IN HOT”, ON THE PART OF THE OFFICER KENNY, IN THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION. HE SUGGESTED THAT THAT’S THE KIND OF THING THAT NEEDS REFOCUS, RETRAINING.

MIKE KOVAL:
WELL, I THINK THAT THE POINT OF HAVING TWO OFFICERS BEFORE ANY THRESHOLD ENTRY MADE IS A SAFETY CONCERN, AND ACTS AS ANOTHER LAYER IF YOU WILL OF A BACKUP. ON THE OTHER HAND, IF SOMEONE, A LOVED ONE PERHAPS, IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT DOOR AND, THEY’RE BEING STABBED TO DEATH OR SOMETHING WORSE, AND THE FIRST OFFICER ARRIVING, I DON’T THINK THAT WE AS A SOCIETY WANT THEM TO STAND DOWN. WE WANT THEM TO ABLE TO ACT ON THOSE TRAINING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
MICHAEL JOHNSON, HOW HAS THIS TRAUMA IN THE COMMUNITY CHANGED THE CONVERSATION AROUND RACIAL EQUITY?

MICHAEL JOHNSON:
I THINK OUR COMMUNITY, RIGHT NOW, I THINK WE’RE STILL DIVIDED AS A COMMUNITY. AS ONE FRACTION OF THE COMMUNITY THAT IS HAPPY WITH THE OUTCOME, THERE’S ANOTHER FRACTION THAT’S NOT HAPPY WITH THE OUTCOME. SO NO MATTER WHAT DECISION THE D.A. MADE, IT WAS GOING TO BE A TOUGH DECISION. SO, THE QUESTION IS, HOW DO WE MOVE FORWARD? HOW DO WE SUPPORT CHANGES, AND SUPPORT OUR OFFICERS ON THE STREETS BUT ALSO MAKE SURE OUR CITIZENS FEEL SAFE? AND SO I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT COMMUNITY POLICING. HOW DO WE BRIDGE A GAP BETWEEN YOUNG PEOPLE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS? HOW DO WE BEGIN TO BUILD TRUST BETWEEN OUR COMMUNITIES? IF WE DON’T DO THAT, THESE ISSUES ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO HAPPEN YEAR-AFTER-YEAR-AFTER-YEAR. THERE’S THREE MAIN ISSUES WE HAVE GOT TO ADDRESS. THE DISPARATIES OF EDUCATION. MASS INCARCERATION AND, THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE. IF WE DON’T BEGIN TO ADDRESS THOSE SYSTEMATIC ISSUES, WE’LL BE TALKING ABOUT THESE ISSUES IN 2067.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
IN TERMS OF COMMUNITY POLICING, THERE ARE CALLS ON THE PART OF PEOPLE TO ENGAGE THE COMMUNITY MORE, IN HOW YOU PERFORM COMMUNITY POLICING. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THAT?

MIKE KOVAL:
WELL, I THINK THAT GOES TO TRANSPARENCY AS WELL AS ACCOUNTABILITY BY US HAVING CIVILIAN FORUMS, HAVING THE INFORMATION THAT WE HAVE RELATIVE TO OUR POLICIES AND PROCEDURES TRANSPARENTLY AVAILABLE ONLINE, AND TO INVITE THAT SORT OF INTROSPECTION FROM OTHER THIRD PARTY ENTITYIES. I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY THAT’S GOING TO BE RE-ENFORCING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THESE THREE MAIN ISSUES THAT HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED BEFORE PEOPLE CAN COME TOGETHER. DON’T YOU THINK THAT WHAT THIS COMMUNITY HAS BEEN THROUGH, IN THE EYES OF THE NATION, HAS STARTED? IT HASN’T BROKEN DOWN THESE KIND OF BARRIERS?

MICHAEL JOHNSON:
THERE’S SOME PEOPLE THAT’S HAPPY THAT WE DIDN’T HAVE THE CHAOS THAT FERGUSON AND BALTIMORE HAD BUT THAT’S NOTHING TO CELEBRATE. I’M GLAD THAT WE HAD PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT, HOW TO REDUCE DISPARITIES IN OUR COMMUNITY AND IF WE CAN DO THAT. EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEM BUT THERE’S NO PLAN, SYSTEMATIC PLAN TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES, AND WE HAVE TO STOP POINTING THE FINGER AT ONE ANOTHER AND COME UP WITH RECOMMENDATIONS IN TERMS OF HOW WE SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
BECAUSE THAT’S ON PEOPLE LIKE YOU, AS OPPOSED TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU, RIGHT? I MEAN, YOU’RE NOT, YOU WORK WITH YOUNG PEOPLE AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. THE POLICE DEPARTMENT DOESN’T AS MUCH EXCEPT THAT YOU’RE IN AMONG THE PEOPLE EVERYDAY.

MIKE KOVAL:
I WANT US TO DO MORE NEIGHBORHOOD POLICING.

MICHAEL JOHNSON:
ABSOLUTELY BUT I DON’T WANT MY KIDS TO BE IN HIS SYSTEM. FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, WE HAVE WHAT WE CALL A BHAG – BIG HAIRY AUDACIOUS GOAL. WE WANT 90% OF OUR KIDS TO GRADUATE FROM HIGH SCHOOL AND GO TO COLLEGE OR BE PREPARED FOR A CAREER. THERE’S RESEARCH OUT THERE. IF YOU CAN IMPROVE GRADUATION RATES IN YOUR COMMUNITY BY 10%, YOU CAN REDUCE CRIME BY 20%. AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT AFRICAN AMERICAN MALES IN THIS COMMUNITY AT ONE POINT, THERE WAS DATA OUT THERE THAT SAID THAT 47% OF YOUNG AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN ARE EITHER IN JAIL, PROBATION OR PAROLE. I DON’T WANT THAT TO BE THE KIDS THAT COME TO OUR LOCAL BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS. WE WANT THIS KIDS TO BE INSPIRED TO GO TO COLLEGE. WE WANT THEM CONNECTED. THAT’S WHY WE DECIDED WE WERE GOING TO PUT 675 KIDS TO WORK BECAUSE WE WANT THEM TO KNOW ALL THE GREAT OPPORTUNITIES THAT’S AVAILABLE TO THEM. AND WHEN I LOOK AT THE DANE COUNTY JAIL SYSTEM AND 44% OF THE PEOPLE IN THAT JAIL SYSTEM LOOK LIKE ME, THAT’S AN ISSUE THAT WE HAVE TO ADDRESS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SO, CHIEF ON THAT ISSUE, WHAT’S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY ON THAT?

MIKE KOVAL:
I THINK WE HAVE TO BE SEEMLESSLY WORING TO FORTIFY THOSE EFFORTS. WE ALSO HAVE TO BE SEEN IN EXAMPLES WHERE IT IS NOT ALWAYS CATCHING KIDS DOING SOMETHING BAD. WE HAVE TO BE THERE WHEN KIDS ARE DOING EXEMPLARY WORK AND BEING NON-TRADITIONAL. AND I THINK THAT HELPS IN TERMS OF RACE DIALOGUE. IT TALKS ABOUT THE INTERACTIONS BEING MORE POSITIVE. IF WE COULD HAVE PEOPLE LIKE MY PARTNER HERE FROM THE BOYS AND GIRLS CLUB. AND WE CAN INFUSE OUR OFFICERS WHEN WE’RE NOT ALWAYS RESPONDING TO CRISIS THAT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL ALL THE WAY AROUND.

MICHAEL JOHNSON:
AND THERE’S PARTNERSHIPS THAT WE HAVE. WE HAVE THE LATINO, AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN YOUTH ACADEMY WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE LEARNING ABOUT LAW ENFORCEMENT. AND BRIDGING THAT GAP BETWEEN YOUNG PEOPLE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT. WE SHOULD BE FUNDING THINGS LIKE THAT SO KIDS ARE BUILDING THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH LOCAL POLICE OFFICERS. BUT EVERY YEAR WE’RE SCRAMBLING TO FIND FUNDING TO SUPPORT A PROGRAM LIKE THAT. THEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE NEIGHBORHOOD POLICE OFFICERS. THEY’RE IN THE COMMUNITIES. IN COMMUNITY CENTERS AND OFFICERS INSTEAD OF POLICING THE NEIGHBORHOODS, THEY’RE ENGAGED IN ACTIVITIES THAT TAKE PLACE IN THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS. SO WE HAVE TO DO MORE STUFF LIKE THAT TO BRIDGE THE DIALOGUE IN THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
HOW HEAVY IS THIS ROCK TO PUSH UP THE HILL WITH THESE JUST SEEMINGLY INSURMOUNTABLE PROBLEMS AMONG OUR YOUTH AND THEN GRADUATION RATES AND THAT KIND OF THING? HOW CAN THIS COMMUNITY DO THIS?

MICHAEL JOHNSON:
WE NEED A SENSE OF URGENCY. WE JUST CAN’T WAIT. I REMEMBER PEOPLE TELLING US A COUPLE YEARS AGO, THAT THERE’S NO WAY YOU’LL GET KIDS OF COLOR TO GRADUATE AT 90%. AND IT HAPPENED. WE JUST GRADUATED 113 KIDS, ALL OF THEM GOING TO COLLEGE. PEOPLE SAY NO WAY THIS COMMUNITY WILL HIRE 675 KIDS. THIS SUMMER WE’RE EMPLOYING 70 KIDS THROUGH 30 PLUS DIFFERENT COMPANIES. SO JUST WE HAVE TO ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND WE GOTTA DO IT. RAISE THE RESOURCES TO MAKE SURE OUR KIDS ARE BEING SUCCESSFUL. WE’RE INVESTED TOO MUCH IN LAW ENFORCEMENT OR THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SIDE, INSTEAD OF PUTTING MORE MONEY INTO EDUCATION, AFTER-SCHOOL PROGRAMS. WE HAVE TO SET WHAT OUR PRIORITIES ARE FOR THIS COMMUNITY. AND I THINK WE HAVE TO REDESIGN WHAT THE OPPORTUNITY EQUATION FOR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
I WANT TO FINISH UP WITH YOU, CHIEF, AND JUST ASK THIS, IN THIS COMMUNITY THAT APPARENTLY IS STILL EXTREMELY DIVIDED, WHAT DO YOU WANT YOUR DETRACTORS OR THE DETRACTORS OF YOUR POLICE FORCE TO KNOW?

MIKE KOVAL:
BASICALLY WE GOT INTO THIS LINE OF WORK OUT OF A FUNDAMENTAL SENSE OF WANTING TO SERVE OTHERS. SELFLESSLY DOING SO. AND NOBODY WANTS TO BE CAST IN THE ROLE OF AN ENFORCEMENT OFFICER AS OUR IMAGE. AND WE CERTAINLY DON’T WANT TO BE DEFINED BY A SHOOTING. WE’RE DOING SO MUCH AFFIRMATIVE STUFF THAT REALLY VALIDATES A LOT OF THE SAME INITIATIVES THAT MICHAEL IS TALKING ABOUT. AND WE NEED TO REINVENT OURSELVES, MORE IN THAT ROLE AS GUARDIANS AND PARTNERS TO THE COMMUNITY, LESS LIKE THE WARRIOR MINDSET.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

KOVAL AND JOHNSON:
THANK YOU.