ANNOUNCER:

THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS PART OF OUR “HERE AND NOW” 2016 WISCONSIN VOTE ELECTION COVERAGE. FUNDING FOR “HERE AND NOW” IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. TONIGHT ON “HERE AND NOW,” A NEW REPORT ABOUT ACT 10 AND THE IMPACT THAT IT HAS HAD ON WISCONSIN SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS. WE’LL EXAMINE THE FINDINGS AND GET REACTION. PLUS, THE DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES IS BEING PUSHED FOR ANSWERS AFTER AN AUDIT REVEALED SOME SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT STAFFING AND ENFORCEMENT. WE’LL TALK WITH DNR SECRETARY CATHY STEPP, DNR BOARD CHAIRMAN TERRY HILGENBERG AND AMBER MEYER-SMITH WITH CLEAN WISCONSIN. BUT WE BEGIN TONIGHT WITH A FIRST FOR WISCONSIN AND THE GREAT LAKES REGION. THERE WILL BE A NEW SOURCE OF WATER FOR THE CITY OF WAUKESHA FOLLOWING AN HISTORIC VOTE THIS WEEK IN CHICAGO ON THE PART OF EIGHT GREAT LAKES STATES. THE VOTE, THE FIRST OF ITS KIND UNDER THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT, CLEARS THE WAY FOR THE CITY TO DRAW LAKE MICHIGAN WATER. WAUKESHA’S CURRENT WATER IS CONTAMINATED WITH RADIUM BECAUSE THE CITY’S WELLS HAVE BEEN DRAWN DOWN DUE TO HEAVY USE BROUGHT ON BY DEVELOPMENT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

LAKE MICHIGAN WATER HAS BEEN CALLING TO THE CITY TO THE WEST FOR MORE THAN A DECADE. AND AFTER LONG SCIENTIFIC STUDY, WAUKESHA DETERMINED THE GREAT LAKES BOUNTY WAS THE ONLY VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO ITS WATER WOES. OVER THE YEARS, EIGHT STATES, CHARGED WITH UPHOLDING THE FEDERAL LAW KNOWN AS THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT, CAME TO AGREE, CULMINATING THIS WEEK.

MAN:

ILLINOIS.

MAN:

MR. CHAIRMAN, ILLINOIS VOTES TO APPROVE.

MAN:

INDIANA.

MAN:

INDIANA VOTES TO APPROVE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WITH THE REQUIRED UNANIMOUS VOTE APPROVING WAUKESHA’S DIVERSION OF LAKE MICHIGAN WATER. BUT IT WAS ARDUOUS AND COMPLICATED BECAUSE THE COMPACT PROHIBITS WATER FROM BEING PUMPED BY COMMUNITIES OUTSIDE THE GREAT LAKES BASIN, BUT DOES INCLUDE AN EXCEPTION FOR POPULATIONS THAT STRADDLE THE DIVIDING LINE LIKE WAUKESHA.

SHAWN REILLY:

I’M VERY HAPPY WITH THE RESULT OF THE VOTE AND I’M HAPPY FOR THE CITY OF WAUKESHA, THAT THEY HAVE A CLEAN, SAFE, SUSTAINABLE SOURCE OF WATER

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE VOTE, WAUKESHA WILL BE ABLE TO DIVERT NO MORE THAN 8.2 MILLION GALLONS A DAY OF LAKE MICHIGAN WATER AND MUST RETURN 100% OF IT BACK TO THE LAKE. IT WILL BE TREATED AND RETURNED VIA THE ROOT RIVER, WHICH EMPTIES INTO LAKE MICHIGAN IN RACINE. ENVIRONMENTALISTS WHO OPPOSE THE WATER DIVERSION PLAN, ESPECIALLY DON’T LIKE THAT PART OF IT.

CHERYL NENN:

THE PEOPLE IN RACINE ARE RIGHTFULLY VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS. THEY’RE NOT GETTING ANYTHING FROM THIS DIVERSION THAT’S POSITIVE. WAUKESHA IS GETTING WATER. OAK CREEK IS SELLING WATER AND ABLE TO GET REVENUE FROM THAT. AND RACINE IS GETTING INCREASED POLLUTION INTO A RIVER THAT’S ALREADY IMPAIRED FOR NUTRIENTS AND SOLIDS AND OTHER THINGS. THEY’RE CONCERNED ABOUT WHETHER THIS WILL IMPACT THEIR ABILITY TO ENJOY A CLEAN, FISHABLE, SWIMMABLE RIVER.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BUT OTHERS SAY WATER QUALITY WILL NOT SUFFER.

JOHN SKALBECK:

FROM A REGIONAL WATER MANAGEMENT PERSPECTIVE, THIS IS THE BEST THING. THE CURRENT GROUNDWATER WITHDRAWAL THAT WAUKESHA USES FOR THEIR WATER SUPPLY IS NOT SUSTAINABLE. IT’S NOT SUSTAINABLE FROM A QUANTITY STANDPOINT OR A WATER QUALITY STANDPOINT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ONE OVERRIDING CONCERN OF OPPONENTS IS THE PRECEDENT THE WAUKESHA PLAN COULD SET FOR OTHER STATES WHO MIGHT NEED GREAT LAKES WATER.

EZRA MYER:

IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE QUITE A HIGH BAR THAT THIS TYPE OF APPLICATION HAD TO MEET TO BE APPROVED. IT’S MAYBE NOT QUITE AS HIGH AS WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT SET WITH THIS FIRST ONE OUT OF THE GATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BUT AFTER SO MUCH TECHNICAL STUDY AND SO MANY YEARS, WISCONSIN OFFICIALS SAY THE FIRST IN THE NATION APPROVAL LEAVES THEM RELIEVED AND THANKFUL.

CATHY STEPP:

I JUST THINK IT’S A FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY. I KNOW THE GOVERNOR IS JUST THRILLED ABOUT THIS BECAUSE WISCONSIN ONCE AGAIN HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO LEAD AND SHOW THE NATION HOW WE CAN HAVE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AND JOB CREATION AT THE SAME TIME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IT IS EXPECTED TO TAKE SEVERAL YEARS BEFORE WAUKESHA CAN BEGIN PUMPING LAKE MICHIGAN WATER. THE CITY STILL NEEDS TO ACQUIRE STATE AND FEDERAL PERMITS AND COMPLETE UPWARDS OF $200 MILLION IN CONSTRUCTION OF WATER PIPELINES. THE MINNESOTA AND MICHIGAN GOVERNOR DELEGATES BROUGHT LAST-MINUTE AMENDMENTS BEFORE THE VOTE SEEKING ASSURANCES THAT WISCONSIN’S DNR WOULD AND COULD ENFORCE THE CONDITIONS OF WAUKESHA’S WATER DIVERSION PLAN. HAD THOSE AMENDMENTS NOT PASSED, MINNESOTA WE’RE TOLD MAY NOT HAVE VOTED TO APPROVE. CONCERNS ON THE PART OF MINNESOTA OVER WISCONSIN’S DNR COME ON THE HEELS OF THE AGENCY NARROWING ITS OVERSIGHT OF HIGH CAPACITY WELLS AND A CRITICAL AUDIT RELEASED THIS MONTH. EARLIER THIS WEEK THE DNR BOARD DISCUSSED THE AUDIT WHICH AMONG OTHER THINGS FOUND THAT DURING THE PAST TEN YEARS THE AGENCY FAILED 94% OF THE TIME TO TAKE ENFORCEMENT ACTION AGAINST PRIVATE INDUSTRIES AND MUNICIPAL SEWAGE PLANTS THAT EXCEEDED WATER POLLUTION LIMITS, WHICH VIOLATED ITS OWN POLICIES. THE AUDIT ALSO FOUND THAT THE NUMBER OF CONCENTRATED ANIMAL FEEDING OPERATIONS OR CAFOs INCREASED 80% FROM 2005 TO 2014, MEANING THE DNR NOW HAS 264 OF THE LARGE LIVESTOCK FARMS TO PERMIT AND INSPECT. THE DNR IS NOW WORKING TO DETERMINE WHETHER CAFOs ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BACTERIAL CONTAMINATION OF 34% OF THE WELLS IN KEWAUNEE COUNTY. BUT THAT WORK AND INSPECTIONS OF THE OPERATIONS REQUIRE ADDITIONAL DNR STAFF, ALREADY STRAPPED. HERE’S WHAT DNR SECRETARY CATHY STEPP HAD TO SAY ABOUT THE CRITICAL AUDIT.

CATHY STEPP:

WE’VE BEEN AWARE OF THESE CHALLENGES, FRANKLY, SINCE I WALKED IN THE DOOR, BUT REALLY I INHERITED ABOUT A 30% VACANCY RATE IN THE WATER DIVISION WHEN I WALKED IN THE DOOR. THESE JOBS ARE SO TECHNICAL AND SO DIFFICULT IN NATURE, I CAN’T JUST TAKE SOMEBODY OFF THE STREET AND THROW THEM INTO THESE ROLES. IT TAKES TIME. SOMETIMES A YEAR TO A YEAR AND A HALF TO GET PEOPLE TRAINED UP, NOT TO MENTION THE PROCESS OF CIVIL SERVICE AND BRINGING PEOPLE INTO THE DOOR TO BEGIN WITH AND THEN THE WAVE OF RETIREMENTS WE’VE HAD. WE’RE NOT IMMUNE TO THAT JUST LIKE THE PRIVATE SECTOR. SO LOTS OF CHALLENGES THERE, BUT THEY CAN BE OVERCOME. WE JUST HAVE TO LAY OUT A GOOD, COHESIVE BUSINESS CASE SO THE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR SUPPORTS THAT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO TELL CITIZENS WHO MIGHT HAVE SOME CONCERN THAT ENFORCEMENT ON THE PART OF THE DNR IS FALLING BEHIND BECAUSE OF THESE ISSUES?

CATHY STEPP:

WELL, I WOULDN’T GO AS FAR TO SAY IT IN SUCH A BLANKET STATEMENT. WE’RE DOING A LOT BETTER WORK ON THE GROUND, FRANKLY, THAN HAS EVER BEEN DONE HISTORICALLY, WHICH IS PARTNERING WITH PRODUCERS EARLY SO WE DON’T HAVE TO ENFORCE. ULTIMATELY MY GOAL IS TO HAVE ZERO INFRACTIONS, ZERO VIOLATIONS BECAUSE WHEN WE CAN DO THAT, THAT MEANS THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE RULES, THEY’VE GOT THE TECHNOLOGY IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO COMPLY WITH THE RULES, THAT THEY’RE WILLING TO PARTNER WITH US AHEAD OF TIME BEFORE THERE’S SOME KIND OF A MISTAKE OR INTENTIONAL THING THAT MIGHT BE DONE ON THE GROUND. SO WE WANT TO BE THERE EARLY AND OFTEN AND AVAILABLE AS TECHNICAL EXPERTS, PARTNERS WITH PRODUCERS. AND I KNOW WHEN WE DO THAT WELL, THERE ARE NO LIMITS TO THE SUCCESSES WE CAN SEE, NOT JUST ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, BUT ENHANCEMENT AS WELL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU DON’T BELIEVE THAT WATER QUALITY SAFETY IS AN ISSUE?

CATHY STEPP:

IN SOME PARTS OF THE STATES, WE HAVE GRAVE CONCERNS. I WILL ABSOLUTELY SAY THAT. THERE NEEDS TO BE A DIFFERENT WAY ON HOW IT IS THAT WE’RE REGULATING GROUNDWATER QUALITY, ESPECIALLY IN GEOLOGICAL SENSITIVE REGIONS OF THE STATE, THE KARST TOPOGRAPHY. WE’RE IN DISCUSSIONS RIGHT NOW WITH OUR BOARD. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT OPENING UP TWO ADMINISTRATIVE RULES – NR151, NR243 – BECAUSE I’M SURE EVERYBODY IS SO INTO THE NRs LIKE I AM. BUT IT’S IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT TALKS ABOUT AGRICULTURAL RUNOFF – THE NON-POINT RULES. 243 HAS TO DO WITH CAFO SITES. SO IT’S GOING TO BE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PUBLIC TO SEE HOW FIRST OF ALL WE’RE GOING TO BE BRINGING IN THE SCIENCE THAT WE JUST NOW COMPLETED BY THE WAY SO THAT WE CAN MAKE REGULATORY DECISIONS BASED ON SOUND SCIENCE, NOT JUST HYPERBOLE. AND THAT’S REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IN ORDER TO BE AN EFFECTIVE REGULATOR, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM USING REAL SCIENTIFIC DATA WHICH WE JUST NOW COMPLETED WITH THIS RECENT STUDY WE DID IN NORTHEASTERN WISCONSIN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SECRETARY STEPP APPEARED BEFORE THE DNR BOARD TO RESPOND TO THE WASTEWATER PERMITTING AND ENFORCEMENT AUDIT. BOARD CHAIR TERRY HILGENBERG WAS EAGER TO HEAR THE AGENCY’S RESPONSE. HE JOINS US NOW FROM GREEN BAY AND THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

TERRY HILGENBERG:

YOU’RE VERY, VERY WELCOME. I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE WANTED TO ASK FIRST, HOW ALARMING WAS THIS AUDIT FOR YOU AS THE CHAIR OF THE DNR BOARD?

TERRY HILGENBERG:

WELL, IT WAS ALARMING FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THERE ARE MANY, MANY ISSUES THAT WERE IDENTIFIED WITHIN THE REPORT THAT QUITE FRANKLY OUR BOARD MEMBERS WERE NOT AWARE OF.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT STANDS OUT SPECIFICALLY IN THE REVIEW OF THE AGENCY?

TERRY HILGENBERG:

WELL, IT’S A TEN-YEAR REPORT, AND WHENEVER YOU GO TO A TEN-YEAR REPORT, THAT’S FAIRLY LENGTHY AND OBVIOUSLY IT WAS EXHAUSTIVE. SO THE DEPARTMENT WAS — HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED WITHIN THAT REPORT OF MANY AREAS THAT WE NEED SOME IMPROVEMENTS ON. AND IN DISCUSSING THAT WITH DEPARTMENT LEADERSHIP, INCLUDING THE SECRETARY, THEY DID MANY, MANY THINGS ALREADY TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE DEFICIENCIES IN THE DEPARTMENT HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED OR ARE BEING ADDRESSED.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU STARTED BY SAYING THAT THERE WERE MANY THINGS IN THE AUDIT THAT YOU WEREN’T EVEN AWARE OF. LIKE WHAT?

TERRY HILGENBERG:

WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ISSUES OF FEES FOR THE VARIOUS DIFFERENT PERMITTING LEVELS. IN MANY OF THE BOARD MEMBERS’ OPINIONS, GROSSLY INADEQUATE FOR THE SERVICES THAT ARE PROVIDED. ALL OF US UNDERSTAND AND RECOGNIZE READILY THE IMPORTANCE OF CLEAN WATER IN WISCONSIN, AND WE WANT TO ENSURE THAT WE HAVE SYSTEMS IN PLACE THAT ASSURE THAT OUR CITIZENS ARE — HAVE THE AVAILABILITY OF CLEAN WATER. IT AFFECTS ALMOST EVERYONE’S LIFE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

OF COURSE. WHAT QUESTIONS DID YOU HAVE FOR SECRETARY STEPP?

TERRY HILGENBERG:

WELL, THE FIRST QUESTIONS WERE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE REPORT ITSELF, WE ARE GROSSLY UNDERSTAFFED TO TAKE CARE OF ALL THE RESPONSIBILITIES THAT THE DEPARTMENT HAS. AND WHAT ARE WE DOING TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES. THAT WAS I BELIEVE THE FIRST AND FOREMOST THING THAT CAME OUT OF THE REPORT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND SO WERE YOUR QUESTIONS ADEQUATELY ANSWERED?

TERRY HILGENBERG:

YES. SOME OF THEM ARE DUE TO THE CIVIL SERVICE RESTRICTIONS THAT ARE IN STATE GOVERNMENT. I, COMING FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR, I TAKE A LOOK AT IT, AND IF I LOST 30% OF MY EMPLOYEES, I WOULD HAVE A MAJOR, MAJOR PROBLEM. AND I THINK ANY BUSINESS, ANY GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY THAT WOULD LOSE 30% OF THEIR KEY EMPLOYEES IN KEY POSITIONS NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO BE VERY RESPONSIVE TO THAT. AND UNFORTUNATELY THE DEPARTMENT HAD SOME HANDCUFFS ON IT THAT PRECLUDED THEM FROM BEING ABLE TO BE RESPONSIVE. SO THEY DID THE BEST THEY COULD UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT THEY WERE FACED WITH, YET AT THE SAME TIME UNDERSTANDING THAT SOME OF THESE ISSUES WERE PRE-SECRETARY STEPP’S REGIME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT IN YOUR MIND NEEDS TO BE DONE TO PROTECT WISCONSIN’S WATER?

TERRY HILGENBERG:

I THINK, NUMBER ONE, AS WITH ALMOST EVERY GOOD PROGRAM IN WISCONSIN, WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON HAVING ADEQUATE RESOURCES TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES AND THAT COMES WITH THE BUDGET PROCESS, OBVIOUSLY. AND WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE FLEXIBILITY WITHIN THE CIVIL SERVICE PROGRAMMING TO BE ABLE TO REDIRECT RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE. AND I THINK WE ALL WOULD AGREE THAT OUR NUMBER ONE RESOURCES ARE PEOPLE, OUR STAFF, OUR SENIOR STAFF, WELL-EDUCATED, TRAINED, EXPERIENCED PEOPLE. WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO MOVE THEM AROUND IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF CAPACITY WHEN WE NEED IT. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, NONE OF US WOULD HAVE ANTICIPATED THE GREAT INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF CAFOs THAT HAVE BEEN SURFACING IN WISCONSIN IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS, YET ALONE TEN YEARS. AND HOW DO YOU ANTICIPATE THE NEED FOR HAVING THE NECESSARY STAFFING TO DEAL WITH THOSE ISSUES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE. TERRY HILGENBERG, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

TERRY HILGENBERG:

YOU’RE WELCOME. THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS ARE SOUNDING THE ALARM OVER ENFORCEMENT OF WASTEWATER VIOLATIONS IN THE STATE IN THE WAKE OF THE DNR AUDIT. AMBER MEYER-SMITH OF CLEAN WISCONSIN JOINS US NOW WITH HER TAKE ON THE SITUATION. AND THANKS A LOT FOR BEING HERE.

AMBER MEYER-SMITH:

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WE’VE HEARD FROM THE SECRETARY WITH HER REACTION TO THE AUDIT OF HER AGENCY AND THE DNR BOARD. WHAT’S YOUR REACTION TO THIS AUDIT?

AMBER MEYER-SMITH:

WELL, THE AUDIT BUREAU IS A VERY RESPECTED, NONPARTISAN AGENCY, SO A LOT OF PEOPLE PUT A LOT OF STOCK IN THESE NUMBERS AND SOME OF THE RESULTS. SENATOR COWLES, A REPUBLICAN FROM GREEN BAY ACTUALLY REQUESTED THE AUDIT. THE NATURAL RESOURCES BOARD DID A GREAT JOB OF FOLLOWING UP AND FINDING OUT WHERE THE GAPS ARE AT THE DNR. SO REALLY THERE’S A LOT OF ATTENTION BEING PAID TO THE RED FLAGS THAT WERE RAISED HERE. AND WE SHARE SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT YOU’VE HEARD ALREADY. 94% OF THE TIME WHEN DNR ISN’T FOLLOWING ITS OWN POLICIES IN TERMS OF ENFORCING AGAINST VIOLATORS. A BACKLOG OF PERMITS. THOSE HAVE REAL ENVIRONMENTAL RESULTS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

A LOT OF THE CONCERNS ALSO SEEM TO REVOLVE AROUND THE STAFF SHORTAGES AT THE DNR, SPECIFICALLY KIND OF IN THE WATER AREA. AND, YOU KNOW, WE’VE BEEN TRACKING THOSE SHORTAGES OVER THE YEARS. BUT THIS SEEMS TO PUT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THAT IN THE BRIGHT LIGHT. IN YOUR MIND, WHAT KINDS OF INSPECTIONS AND ENFORCEMENTS SHOULD BE TAKING PLACE?

AMBER MEYER-SMITH:

YOU REALLY HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. FOR TOO LONG THE DNR HAS BEEN A CONVENIENT TARGET BY A SMALL HANDFUL OF LEGISLATORS AND THEY’VE SORT OF WITHOUT CAUSE CUT STAFF, 16 SCIENTISTS IN THE LAST BUDGET, 11 EDUCATORS. AND THIS AUDIT REALLY IS RAISING A CURTAIN ON THE RESULTS OF THAT. AND IT IS HARMING PEOPLE’S WATER BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT ENFORCEMENT AND PERMITS ARE ALL ABOUT. IT’S TO KEEP OUR WATER CLEAN. IT’S TO PROTECT WHAT WE VALUE, CLEAN DRINKING WATER, FISHING, SWIMMING, CANOEING, KAYAKING IN CLEAN WATER.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU THINK IT HAS GOTTEN TO THE POINT, AS LOOKED AT IN THE AUDIT, THAT IT IS ENDANGERING WISCONSIN’S WATER?

AMBER MEYER-SMITH:

I DEFINITELY DO. AND I THINK IT’S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT WISCONSIN RIGHT NOW IS FACING A LOT OF VERY SERIOUS WATER CHALLENGES. A DEAD ZONE IN GREEN BAY WAS IDENTIFIED ONLY A FEW YEARS AGO WHERE NOTHING CAN LIVE. WE HAVE BEACH CLOSINGS ALL OVER THE STATE EVERY SUMMER BECAUSE THEY ARE CHOKED WITH ALGAE, WHICH IS A SMELLY NUISANCE OR VERY HIGHLY DANGEROUS AND TOXIC. JUST THIS YEAR ALONE, THE DNR ADDED 225 WATERS TO THE IMPAIRED WATERWAY LIST, BRINGING THE TOTAL UP TO 1300. THOSE ARE ALL WATERS THAT AREN’T MEETING THE STANDARDS THAT HAVE BEEN SET. SO THERE ARE CHALLENGES THAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS. AND A LACK OF ENFORCEMENT AND FOLLOW-THROUGH AND CONSISTENCY AND A BACKLOG OF PERMITS IS ONLY MAKING THOSE SITUATIONS WORSE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND THE AUDIT ALSO POINTS TO THE FACT THAT THE NUMBER OF CAFOs HAS GONE UP 80% SINCE 2005 MAKING ALL OF THIS EVEN MORE DIFFICULT.

AMBER MEYER-SMITH:

THAT’S RIGHT. KEWAUNEE COUNTY IS SUFFERING THE BRUNT OF THAT PROBLEM RIGHT NOW. THEY’VE GOT VERY SHALLOW BEDROCK, WHICH MAKES THEIR WELLS VERY SUSCEPTIBLE TO POLLUTION FROM RUNOFF. A LOT OF THE CAFO GROWTH HAS BEEN IN THAT NORTHEASTERN REGION. PEOPLE CAN’T DRINK THE WATER OUT OF THEIR WELLS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY’RE CONTAMINATED WITH NITRATES AND BACTERIA.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU HAVE SOME OPTIMISM IN THE SENSE THAT THE DNR BOARD DID TAKE THIS EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY, LOOKED VERY CLOSELY AT THE AUDIT AND IS NOW INTERESTED IN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THEY CAN HELP THE DNR STAFF UP?

AMBER MEYER-SMITH:

I AM REALLY ENCOURAGED BY THE LEVEL OF REACTION THAT DECISION-MAKERS HAVE GIVEN THIS AUDIT. THE BOARD, WE ALREADY HEAR SENATOR COWLES TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT OPTIONS FOR BUDGET SOLUTIONS. APPARENTLY EVEN THE GOVERNOR HAS SAID HE’S OPEN-MINDED ABOUT HIRING SOME STAFF FOR DNR IN ORDER TO ADDRESS THIS AUDIT. AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY THE DIRECTION THAT WISCONSIN NEEDS TO GO, IS TO TAKE THIS VERY SERIOUSLY AND FIX IT IN A VERY ROBUST WAY SO THAT WE CAN GET TO CLEAN WATER SOONER.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. AMBER MEYER-SMITH, THANKS VERY MUCH.

AMBER MEYER-SMITH:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THE DNR SAW A NUMBER OF RETIREMENTS, AS DID OTHER STATE AGENCIES, AS A RESULT OF ACT 10 IN 2011. THAT LAW ELIMINATED MOST PUBLIC SECTOR COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RIGHTS. A NEW STUDY BY THE CONSERVATIVE WISCONSIN INSTITUTE FOR LAW AND LIBERTY SAYS THAT NOTWITHSTANDING THE DIRE PREDICTIONS, ACT 10 SAVED THE STATE $5 BILLION AND HAS HAD LITTLE NEGATIVE IMPACT ON TEACHERS OR STUDENTS. TO THIS SOME MIGHT SAY, REALLY? WE HAVE BOTH SIDES TONIGHT. ATTORNEY RICK ESENBERG IS PRESIDENT OF THE WISCONSIN INSTITUTE OF LAW AND LIBERTY AND JOINS US FROM MILWAUKEE. SCOT ROSS IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF ONE WISCONSIN NOW, A LIBERAL GROUP OPPOSED TO ACT 10. HE’S HERE IN MADISON. WE SHOULD POINT OUT THAT AT WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION WE ARE STATE EMPLOYEES. THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR BEING HERE.

RICK ESENBERG, SCOT ROSS:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

FIRST TO YOU, RICK ESENBERG, IN MILWAUKEE. ACT 10 SAVED $5 BILLION. YOUR STUDY SAID THAT TEACHERS’ AVERAGE SALARY IS $2,000 LOWER AND FRINGE BENEFITS ARE $5500 LOWER AFTER THE LAW. WHAT ABOUT THAT IMPACT?

RICK ESENBERG:

WELL, WHAT WE WANTED TO DO IS WE WANTED TO TRY TO ASSESS WHAT THE IMPACT OF ACT 10 WAS. AND ANY SOCIAL SCIENTIST WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU CAN’T SIMPLY LOOK AT THE NUMBERS BEFORE ACT 10 AND THEN LOOK AT THE NUMBERS AFTER ACT 10 AND ASSUME THAT ACT 10 CAUSED THE DIFFERENCE BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING THAT AFFECT TEACHER SALARIES, THE NUMBER OF TEACHERS, THAT TYPE OF THING. AND SO WE DID WHAT IS CALLED A DIFFERENCE IN DIFFERENCE ANALYSIS. THAT IS, WE COMPARED THE TRENDS BEFORE ACT 10 AND AFTER ACT 10 TO WHAT’S HAPPENING IN STATES SURROUNDING WISCONSIN. AND WE FOUND THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO DIFFERENCE, COMPARED TO OTHER STATES, POST-ACT 10, IN TEACHER-STUDENT RATIO, NO DIFFERENCE POST-ACT 10 IN ADMINISTRATOR TO STUDENT RATIOS AND THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO DIFFERENCE IN GROSS TEACHER COMPENSATION. THAT IS, THE ENTIRE AMOUNT THAT IS BEING PAID OUT IN TEACHER SALARIES HAS NOT CHANGED COMPARED TO OTHER STATES POST-ACT 10. WHAT HAS CHANGED IS BASE TEACHER SALARIES. THAT HAS GONE DOWN. BUT YOU’D EXPECT THAT WITH A LAW LIKE ACT 10 BECAUSE IT PERMITS SCHOOL DISTRICTS TO SHIFT COMPENSATION FROM BASE SALARY TO THINGS LIKE MERIT PAY BONUS. WE CAN’T SAY TO WHAT EXTENT THAT HAS HAPPENED, BUT WE CAN SAY THAT COMPARED TO OTHER STATES, EVERYTHING — ACT 10 HAS HAD VERY, VERY LITTLE IMPACT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SCOT ROSS, TO YOU.

SCOT ROSS:

WELL, I’D SAY IF YOU’RE A TEACHER, A PARENT OR A STUDENT IN PUBLIC SCHOOL AROUND THE STATE OF WISCONSIN YOU’D SAY THAT THE NUMBERS MAY SAY ONE THING, BUT THE REAL STORIES ARE MUCH DIFFERENT. AND THE FACT IS THAT WE HAVE BEEN UNDER ASSAULT, OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, BY GOVERNOR WALKER AND HIS ADMINISTRATION TO THE TUNE OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS STRIPPED AWAY FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS. PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE THE WAY IN WHICH KIDS GET OUT OF POVERTY. IT’S THE WAY PEOPLE GET A GOOD MIDDLE CLASS LIFE, A GOOD MIDDLE CLASS JOB. WE’VE ALREADY SEEN THE FACT THAT THESE ENTITIES, ENTITIES LIKE PROFESSOR ESENBERG’S, PROVIDING PROPAGANDA BASICALLY TO SAY, LISTEN, WE CUT MONEY FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS, BUT IT’S NOT HURTING PUBLIC SCHOOLS. AND I THINK AS YOU LOOK AT THINGS LIKE REFERENDA ALL OVER THE STATE OF WISCONSIN, YOU LOOK AT THE FACT THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE SEEING $200 LESS PER PUPIL AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE SEEING $900 MORE PER PUPIL? I THINK THAT’S THE STORY THAT PROFESSOR ESENBERG’S STUDY IS MISSING, AND INTENTIONALLY SO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

RICK ESENBERG, YOUR STUDY ALSO SAYS WISCONSIN CANNOT BLAME DECLINES IN THE NUMBER OF TEACHERS ON ACT 10. WHY NOT?

RICK ESENBERG:

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE RAW NUMBERS, YOU SEE THAT THE TEACHING WORK FORCE DECLINED BY ABOUT 2.2% PRIOR TO THE ENACTMENT THE OF ACT 10 AND HAS BEEN ESSENTIALLY FLAT AFTER ACT 10. AND THAT SHOULDN’T SURPRISE US EITHER BECAUSE THE WHOLE PURPOSE BEHIND ACT 10 WAS TO AVOID ATTEMPTING TO CLOSE THE BUDGET GAP WITH CUTS IN SERVICES. YOU KNOW, SCOT CAN SAY THAT THE REALITY IS SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT THE NUMBERS SHOW. HE CAN SAY THAT WE’RE ENGAGED IN PROPAGANDA. BUT I WOULD INVITE HIM OR ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION TO TRY TO REPLICATE THE STUDY THAT WE DID. WE RELIED ON PUBLICLY AVAILABLE DATA. WE WERE TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT WE DID. ANYBODY ELSE WHO WANTS TO CONDUCT THE SAME ANALYSIS THAT WE CONDUCTED AND SEE IF THEY REACH THE SAME RESULTS IS FREE TO DO SO. ANYBODY WHO THINKS THAT THERE’S SOME OTHER ANALYSIS, SOME OTHER STUDY THAT SHOULD BE DONE WITH ACT 10, WE WOULD WELCOME THAT. WE BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE DID IS THE MOST SOPHISTICATED STUDY ON THE IMPACT OF ACT 10 TO DATE. BUT WE SAID IN OUR REPORT, THERE ARE OTHER QUESTIONS TO BE ASKED. THERE IS OTHER RESEARCH TO BE DONE. AND WE WOULD WELCOME — AND WE’RE GOING TO TRY TO DO SOME OF THAT AND WE WOULD WELCOME SCOT’S ORGANIZATION OR ANYBODY ELSE TO DO THEIR OWN WORK AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE DEBATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I WANT TO CUT IN HERE JUST A MINUTE AND SAY THAT STATE SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT TONY EVERS SAYS PART OF WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE PASSAGE OF ACT 10 WAS THE VILIFICATION OF TEACHERS AND THAT’S ONE REASON THE STATE FACES WHAT HE CALLS A LOOMING TEACHER SHORTAGE. SCOT, DOES THAT FEELING PERSIST ON THE PART OF TEACHERS?

SCOT ROSS:

ABSOLUTELY. I TALK TO TEACHERS ALL THE TIME. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THEY SAY TO ME IS WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU ATTENDED A HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION CEREMONY WHERE THE VALEDICTORIAN GOT UP THERE AND SAID I WANT TO BE A PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER IN WISCONSIN PUBLIC SCHOOLS? IT’S NOT. BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN A CONCERTED EFFORT BY GOVERNOR WALKER AND PAID PROPAGANDISTS LIKE RICK ESENBERG TO PROVIDE A FORUM IN WHICH TEACHERS ARE VILIFIED. PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE VILIFIED AND THEY STEAL MONEY FROM OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND GIVE IT TO PRIVATE, UNACCOUNTABLE ENTITIES. WE HAVE SEEN THESE MASSIVE CUTS TO PUBLIC EDUCATION. GOVERNOR WALKER OWES HIS ELECTION AND HIS MAJORITY IN THE LEGISLATURE TO THE PRIVATIZATION INDUSTRY. FOR INSTANCE, THE BRADLEY FOUNDATION WHICH HAS GIVEN RICK $4 MILLION OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS. THAT’S HIS CAMPAIGN CHAIR. THEY WANT PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO BE PRIVATIZED AND THIS IS PROPAGANDA.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

RICK, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE WHO SAY TEACHERS FELT AND STILL FEEL VILIFIED AS A RESULT OF ACT 10 AND THE IMPACT OF THAT?

RICK ESENBERG:

YEAH. WE WERE IN A DIFFICULT POSITION IN 2010. WE HAD AVOIDED DIFFICULT BUDGETARY DECISIONS BECAUSE OF THE FEDERAL STIMULUS PACKAGE THAT WAS RUNNING OUT. NOW, GOVERNOR WALKER, HE COULD HAVE RAISED TAXES SIGNIFICANTLY. COULD HAVE DONE THAT. HE CHOSE NOT TO. HE COULD HAVE SIMPLY DECIDED TO ADOPT A SET OF POLICIES THAT WOULD INVOLVE DRAMATIC CUTS IN THE TEACHING WORK FORCE IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN. HE CHOSE NOT TO DO THAT. HE CHOSE A THIRD WAY. ACT 10 REPRESENTED THAT THIRD WAY. IT SAVED TAXPAYERS MONEY AND DID NOT HAVE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON STUDENT-TEACHER RATIOS, ADMINISTRATOR-STUDENT RATIOS. IT DIDN’T HAVE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON TEACHER SALARIES. IT DIDN’T HAVE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON THE EXPERIENCE LEVEL OF TEACHERS, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALSO LOOKED AT. LOOK, I UNDERSTAND THE TALKING POINTS. I UNDERSTAND THAT SCOT WANTS TO GET UP THERE AND SAY BRADLEY FOUNDATION AND CONSERVATIVE AS OFTEN AS HE CAN. BUT MATH IS UNFORGIVING AND THE NUMBERS ARE THE NUMBERS AND THIS IS HOW THEY CAME OUT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE NEED TO GIVE THE LAST RESPONSE TO SCOT ROSS. AND I ASK, DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THE DIRE CONSEQUENCES THAT YOU AND OTHERS PREDICTED AS A RESULT OF ACT 10 DID NOT MATERIALIZE?

SCOT ROSS:

NO. THEY HAVE MATERIALIZED. WE DON’T KNOW HOW MANY YOUNG, BRIGHT COLLEGE GRADUATES DIDN’T GO INTO TEACHING SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF THE FIVE-YEAR VILIFICATION OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS BY GOVERNOR WALKER AND HIS PAID PROPAGANDISTS OUT THERE. IT’S VERY SIMPLE. WHEN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE SCHOOL RATIO THING, WISCONSIN USED TO LEAD THE NATION IN SMALLER CLASS SIZES. US NOW BEING WITH THE REST OF THE PACK IS NOT HELPING PUBLIC SCHOOLS. MOST IMPORTANTLY, IT’S NOT HELPING PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SCOT ROSS, RICK ESENBERG, THANKS VERY MUCH.

RICK ESENBERG, SCOT ROSS:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THAT’S OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK. I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. HAVE A NICE WEEKEND.

ANNOUNCER:

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