Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg, tonight on “Here & Now,” in our First Look segment, highway funding challenges just got worse. After that, a Closer Look at the FoodShare program through the eyes of those enrolled. Then in our Look Ahead, how tougher immigration enforcement may impact life in Wisconsin. It’s “Here and Now” for February 24.

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Frederica Freyberg:

In our First Look tonight, a scathing audit of Wisconsin’s Department of Transportation got a hearing this week at the capitol. Among the highlights of the audit, the cost of 16 ongoing major highway projects increased by $3. 1 billion over original estimates. This was because the DOT did not take inflation into account. The proportion of state highways rated in good condition decreased from 53.5% in 2010 to 41% in 2015. And the proportion of state of highways in good condition in Wisconsin was considerably lower according to the audit than in six other Midwestern states. The airing of these and other facts that auditors found come in the midst of wrangling over how to fill a billion dollar shortfall in transportation funding in Wisconsin and disagreement over raising for example, the gas tax, to generate more funds. But now given the audit results legislators learned that the billion dollar hole is also deeper. So one lawmaker suggested Wisconsin stop digging that hole and stop talking about how to increase funding for transportation until the agency does better. Delafield Republican Senator Chris Kapenga joins us in Milwaukee. Democratic State Senator from Alma, Kathleen Vinehout sits on the audit committee and she is here in Madison. She also calls out the DOT for its lack of transparency and oversight. And welcome to both of you.

Kathleen Vinehout:

Pleasure to be here.

Chris Kapenga:

Thanks.

Frederica Freyberg:

First to you senator in Milwaukee and I want to get this from both of you. What was your overall reaction Senator Kapenga when you saw the audit?

Chris Kapenga:

We had some preliminary indications just in our interviews and discussions with DOT and some people kind of engaged in DOT projects that there was going to be some issues coming out. We had seen this for a couple years where when we asked questions about certain things and why this project was being done or what about these dollar amounts, the answers weren’t adding up. So it wasn’t a complete shock, but I think what was interesting is for the first time, we have a secretary who just got put in place, who actually was kind of an open book, which was encouraging for me to see on the depth of the problems. And remember, as Senator Vinehout knows, this was a limited scope audit so it was not digging into everything and we found massive problems.

Frederica Freyberg:

Senator Vinehout, what about your reaction?

Kathleen Vinehout:

Well the audit is very detailed and there are a lot of very specific recommendations that the audit has on what both the legislature can do and what DOT can do. I was very pleased that the audit, bipartisan audit members were focused on solutions. They wanted DOT to come back right away. They wanted to have progress reports. They wanted to see data every six months. We, as an audit committee, bipartisan audit committee, unanimously introduced a bill to put some accountability into the statutes that should have been there 20 years ago.

Frederica Freyberg:

This didn’t come as a grand surprise to either one of you. Senator Kapenga, how bad is this?

Chris Kapenga:

It’s bad enough to where not only do we know that there’s an issue with estimating the costs. We know that there is an issue with the priority of the projects that are put in place. So now, it’s not just, well, is the dollar amount that we’re giving the DOT appropriate? When we see that there’s projects that are slated in that should not even be slated in and when we ask questions about why did you do the projects you did, when we don’t have answers to that and they can’t give us a rhyme or reason, that’s concerning.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to stay with you Senator Kapenga, who is to blame?

Chris Kapenga:

You can point fingers but at the end of the day, the DOT secretary is the one who’s responsible for his department. So Mark Gottlieb who was in that position, did leave that position recently. And we were a little bit concerned with some performance things we had seen there. Right now what we’re focused on, as Senator Vinehout pointed out, is we now have to fix what we see. So pointing fingers doesn’t do a lot of good at this point. We just realize there’s a major process revamp that has to take place. And we’ll see that coming.

Frederica Freyberg:

Senator Vinehout, what role do delays in projects play in these cost overruns?

Frederica Freyberg:

That’s a big question right now. One of the objectives is to try and balance that transportation budget to balance it, if we cut back on projects, there are delays. If there are delays, there are cost overruns. So every solution has to be considered for the unintended consequences. That’s one of the problems.

Frederica Freyberg:

And staying with you Senator Vinehout, the audit talked about the conditions of the highways in Wisconsin decreasing, you know, they’re not as good as they were and they’re getting worse, and furthermore they don’t compare favorably to surrounding Midwestern states. What are the concerns about that for Wisconsin's economy?

Kathleen Vinehout:

Well, it’s a huge concern. We have bridges in my own county that have been condemned and we still have schoolchildren that are crossing those condemned bridges in the middle of the winter to get to the school bus. There was a bridge that just collapsed just this week in Buffalo County. And I fear that there’s more to come. The floods that we had last summer have weakened a lot of the bridges. There are businesses that can’t operate that are talking to me about closing, because they can’t get the tourist buses across the bridge that has been out since last July. This affects our economy. It affects people. It affects vehicles that are damaged by poor roads and poor bridges and it puts people in danger.

Frederica Freyberg:

Senator Kapenga do you think that’s overstating the condition of the roads?

Chris Kapenga:

No, there’s actually a map that DOT showed us in the audit hearing that we were in. It was a color-coded map and it showed very clearly the areas of the state where the road conditions were poor. This is when we started asking questions. They brought up a situation where there was a $500 million project that was approved and that project was only 20 years into its 50-year life. And when they said why are we doing this and not spending the money outstate where we have problems, as the senator brought up, there was no response to that. They didn’t have an answer. That’s what we’re so concerned about.

Frederica Freyberg:

Meanwhile, Senator Kapenga, you have suggested the time is not now to start talking about increasing funds to fill the transportation shortfall, or you know, start on any new projects until this gets straightened out. Where does that leave you in terms of the people who want to look for a sustainable source of funding for transportation?

Chris Kapenga:

The first thing you have to look at is when you do budgeting and I’ve done budgeting in my previous life as a CPA. It’s something that I’ve done a lot of. You have to have good underlying assumptions when you budget. The problem that the DOT highlights is you can’t even make good assumptions when you’re trying to project. For instance, what is the right dollar amount? You don’t know because you can’t tell what projects are appropriate and what are not. So what I’ve said is the governor in his proposed budget has a good solution where we bond at a very reduced level for the next two years, and that allows Secretary Ross to get his arms around this problem and come to us to fix it.

Frederica Freyberg:

And Senator Vinehout, where do you stand on increasing the gas tax or something like that, at this juncture?

Kathleen Vinehout:

We need to find efficiencies. We need to reduce spending but we also need to raise revenue. And it’s very clear, looking at how much money has been transferred from other programs, like schools and the UW, into the transportation fund. The fund itself is not sustainable. And these efficiencies, we need to capture every single one of them, but we cannot sustain this spending at this level. We cannot sustain $1 of every five going into paying off debt. We have to fix it.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right, we leave it there. Senator Vinehout in Madison and Senator Kapenga in Milwaukee, thank you very much.

Kathleen Vinehout, Chris Kapenga:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

In tonight’s “Closer Look,” there’s a new generation of welfare reform shaping up in Wisconsin. The proposed 2017-19 budget expands on work requirements for food stamp recipients. Two years ago, able-bodied single adults started being required to work or train for work in return for FoodShare, which is just under $200 a month for one single person. So the new proposal includes having parents of school-age children to meet the same requirements. But how have recipients fared under the rules that went into effect two years ago. We met three men required to train for work or be employed under FoodShare rules. Here's what we found.

Daniel Cotton:

Right now, short on meat.

Frederica Freyberg:

48-year-old Daniel Cotton of Milwaukee says he lost his FoodShare benefits in December.

Daniel Cotton:

Eggs and bread and peanut butter of course.

Frederica Freyberg:

An inventory of his fridge shows what the church or food pantries have given him.

Daniel Cotton:

So I got enough ketchup. When I get some more hot dogs, I have some more of that. You just go without for a period of time. You just have some cereal, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. You know it’s more than a lot of people have so you’re thankful.

Frederica Freyberg:

Cotton says he’s lost 12 pounds since losing FoodShare benefits. He says he was working a part-time job but was declared ineligible after failing to attend required FoodShare employment and training appointments because he says they happened during his work hours.

Daniel Cotton:

I didn’t have a high education level. Some of the things you don’t understand that you get in the mail about having to respond to FoodShare.

Frederica Freyberg:

Also, like many people enrolled in or trying to get benefits, Cotton doesn’t have a working computer. This free computer lab serves people at an agency in Beloit. People like 37-year-old Kendrick Payton who’s unemployed and also lost his FoodShare benefits under the 2015 rule requiring training or work.

Kendrick Payton:

It’s kind of difficult to understand all the paperwork and red tape they want you to go through and do. I don’t have a computer, I mean, you can go to the job center, but right now, I don’t have a vehicle to get back and forth. You know, I'm not working, so it’s kind of hard to get somebody to take me to Janesville every time.

Frederica Freyberg:

Payton says he got a letter from the state concerning his FoodShare, which he says he didn’t understand. He says when he couldn’t get to the job center location to iron out the issue, he lost his benefit. Advocates like David Lee of Feeding Wisconsin are all too familiar with the barriers people face.

David Lee:

We're here in Beloit, in order to participate in this program, you have to orient in Janesville. You don’t have a car or bus fare or whatever it might be to take the 20, 30-minute trip up to Janesville, you can’t participate in this amazing program. So I think some of these challenges are extremely real for folks who are living, you know, on the edge of poverty or who are unemployed trying to do their best to make a better life for themselves.

Frederica Freyberg:

Lee says a good paying job is the best antihunger tool in the hunger-fighting toolbox. And his organization and others support increased access to training or good jobs including access like what’s offered through the FoodShare employment and training program which Governor Scott Walker wants to expand.

Scott Walker:

We want to ensure that people who are able to work actually enter the workforce. For starters, that means that abled-bodied adults will need to be employed at least 80 hours a month to receive benefits like food stamps. If not they’ll need to be enrolled in our job training program.

Frederica Freyberg:

Despite being dropped from FoodShare, Kendrick Payton continues to participate in worker training through Community Action of Beloit and wants to work.

Kendrick Payton:

I would like to have a full time job and be able to provide for my kids.

Frederica Freyberg:

Payton is among more than 60,000 FoodShare recipients who lost benefits under the 2015 requirement for work or training according to the State Department of Health and Human Services. But more than 20,000 recipients found jobs.

David Lee:

We think it’s great that 20,000 people found jobs. We hope they are on the path to living healthy, hunger-free productive lives. The 60,000 who lost benefits, I think, we’re extremely concerned about, right, because I think we are concerned that policymakers don’t fundamentally understand the challenges that people are experiencing in trying to enroll in these programs.

Frederica Freyberg:

With what is known about the numbers, what about the expansion of the work training program to parents?

David Lee:

Again, it’s great that 20,000 people found jobs. That is super exciting. But I would imagine and I would hope that before we implement an overly broad work requirement for families with children, we should probably understand how well the program is working now so that we can actually laser target the program to ensure that the most people are able to benefit from it.

Frederica Freyberg:

41-year-old Antonio Johnson of Beloit was able to benefit from the work training requirement and landed a job as a result.

Antonio Johnson:

Going through the program, going on the Wisconsin Job Network site, that’s actually where I located the job where I'm currently working. While I was in class, I applied, took a shot in the dark. Went for orientation. And then a week before I graduated, they called me in again for another interview and offered me the job.

Frederica Freyberg:

Johnson now works full-time at Hormel in Beloit and because of his income is no longer eligible for FoodShare.

Antonio Johnson:

I have the confidence knowing that I'm doing it on my own now without any help and assistance. It’s a big relief right there to know that I can take care of my family. And, you know, it just feels like the sky’s the limit now.

Woman:

This is your eggs. Then out of there, you can choose three items out of the fridge, ok?

Kendrick Payton:

All right.

Frederica Freyberg:

For his part, Kendrick Payton says he is eligible for FoodShare again in three years. He hopes he won’t need it but for now, while he looks for work, he visits local food pantries in order to eat.

Kendrick Payton:

Since I'm not getting FoodShare right now, I just gotta try and make things work the best I can.

Frederica Freyberg:

The director of this pantry says it has seen a significant uptick of customers in recent years.

Donna Ambrose:

The biggest story we hear is that the resources they get are not enough or the jobs they’re working don’t pay a living wage. And so even though they're working, they’re doing everything that’s asked of them, everything that’s required, they’re still struggling.

Frederica Freyberg:

But there are efforts being made to change the struggle to success, like the success that despite his own barriers Antonio Johnson felt when he was offered a full-time, good paying job.

Antonio Johnson:

For the first time in a long time, I felt like I was going to be able to have not just some stability but I was going to be able to do things I always wanted to do. I could actually think about being able to save and buy a house. I could actually think about the fact that I'm going to be able to pay my bills and buy my own groceries and still be able to do other things for my kids. You know?

Frederica Freyberg:

Again, Governor Walker wants to expand the training or work requirement as a pilot program to include FoodShare recipients with school age children. He's also pursuing drug testing for food stamp recipients. Next, a “Look Ahead” to what beefed up immigration enforcement could mean across the country and here in Wisconsin. According to memos released this week from the Department of Homeland Security, immigrants classified as priorities for removal are expanded to include those charged with minor crimes and could include the act of entering the country illegally. The memos call for a force multiplier of state and local police to assist immigration enforcement and of course, the wall. We have Wisconsin reaction to this policy starting with the executive director of the Midwest of Coalition to Reduce Immigration. Dave Gorak who joins us from Baraboo. And thanks a lot of being here.

Dave Gorak:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

As you know according to most counts about 11 million undocumented immigrants live in the U.S., about 85,000 in Wisconsin. What’s your reaction to the executive orders on immigration enforcement?

Dave Gorak:

What the Trump Administration is doing is simply implementing the recommendations of President Clinton's Immigration Reform Commission that was chaired by the late Barbara Jordan. She said that any immigration policy that we have has to serve the national interests. What we’ve had thus far hasn’t been doing that. But more importantly, she said any immigration policy, if it’s to be credible, it has to involve deporting people. Now of course, our priorities are the criminal element, but she said, in the end, if it’s going to mean anything, it’s going to send a proper message to the rest of the world, we have to deport people who have entered this country illegally or come here legally on visas and then deliberately overstayed those visas.

Frederica Freyberg:

Would you like to see the deportation of all 11 million undocumented immigrants?

Dave Gorak:

Our concern is — first of all, immigration is about jobs. Right now, what we’ve got are eight million illegal aliens in our workforce, most in them in construction, manufacturing, services and transportation. At the same time the federal government is reporting that we have 15 million Americans who cannot find full-time work. We want to know why this is going on.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let me ask you about the immigrant labor force. As you know, Wisconsin dairy farms rely heavily on immigrant labor. And we’re told that that’s because they have a very difficult time getting local labor. So what about the concerns there on the part of the dairy industry that the deportation of this labor potentially could really hurt Wisconsin?

Dave Gorak:

The dairy industry has a legitimate complaint because there are no visas available that address their labor needs. The H2A visa allows growers to bring in an unlimited number of temporary workers but the dairy farmers need a year-round labor force. We think there are three options open to the dairy farmers. Number one, they can get together and deal with their members of Congress and say look, we need a visa that addresses our labor needs or they can mechanize. A number of dairy farmers have done this around the country. And finally they can offer better wages. Now agriculture in general pays pretty bad wages and it’s hard work and it’s dirty work. But if you need to bring in foreign workers, then you should do it legally.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you would be in favor of some kind of policy change that would allow for the kinds of visas that would help the dairy industry?

Dave Gorak:

Yes, absolutely. Now, keep in mind, this country has over 30 guest worker programs. So I guess if we have to create another one, 31, 32. But the point is, this is what they have to do and then they never have to worry about labor shortages.

Frederica Freyberg:

Meanwhile, though, you would also like to see a shrinking of the number of documented immigrants that are allowed into this country, briefly, just describe why that is.

Dave Gorak:

During the first 200 years of this country’s history, we averaged about 250,000 legal immigrants every year. But since 1990, that number has risen to more than 1.2 million. And again, what this does is create competition for jobs among the most vulnerable people in our society. So yes, the Jordan Commission recommended cutting immigration in half, to 500,000 and we feel comfortable with that.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right.

Dave Gorak:

We don’t need– I'm sorry.

Frederica Freyberg:

Go ahead very briefly.

Dave Gorak:

We don’t need more immigrants or refugees. What we need are more good-paying jobs for Americans.

Frederica Freyberg:

We leave it there. Dave Gorak, thanks for joining us.

Dave Gorak:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

We now move across the state for the perspective of a dairy farmer with a close eye on immigration enforcement policy. John Rosenow milks about 550 cows on his Buffalo County farm and employs workers from Mexico. It’s estimated more than 5300 immigrants work Wisconsin dairy farms representing more than 40% of all workers hired. Farmers say it is increasing hard to hire locally. John Rosenow joins us now from La Crosse. And thanks for being here.

John Rosenow:

Than you.

Frederica Freyberg:

What's your reaction to the executive orders calling for stepped up deportation now?

John Rosenow:

This causes concern, not only for dairy farmers, but also for our employees. They have stepped up apprehension now because of the talk of deportation and stuff like that. A lot of the talk that I'm hearing is stuff that I’ve heard before, maybe 10 years ago, with talks of the 287(g) and the enhanced enforcement, stuff like that, I think– I hope that cooler heads will prevail than what we’re hearing out of Washington.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, when you describe 287(g), that is the kind of beefed up enforcement whereby local police and sheriffs’ departments assist ICE agents in these enhanced enforcements?

John Rosenow:

Yes. Right now, there’s 32 jurisdictions in the country that are 287(g) certified. Right now, there’s none in the state of Wisconsin, but it was brought up recently in different memos and stuff from the administration that they’re going to try to do that. There isn’t a lot of incentive for local jurisdictions to do that. It’s going to cost them more money. It’s going to cost more time. And it’s going to alienate people they need to work with.

Frederica Freyberg:

How are your Mexican employees and their families reacting and responding to all of this?

John Rosenow:

Well, there’s increasing concern. Before, maybe, it wasn’t a lot of concern, but now there’s increasing concern. I was recently in Mexico. I talked to a young mother. And her daughter’s up here in the United States and trying to make a living. She's working on a farm in Minnesota. And they’re very concerned that she will become deported. They need the money that she is making up there to survive in rural Mexico. This is something new. I hadn’t heard that before when I traveled to Mexico to visit the villages and stuff where my families come from, my employees come from.

Frederica Freyberg:

What are your specific business concerns for your operation?

John Rosenow:

Well, of course, if– if what they’re saying is they’re going to deport everybody, and I lost my employees, I would have to sell the cows, quit farming. My 10 people that work for us locally would lose their jobs. My trucker that hauls feed and bedding and stuff into our place would hurt his business dramatically. Our milk plant would be hurt. This is just if it happened to me. If it happened to everybody in the state, I have one neighbor not too far away, milks about a thousand cows. He and his son are talking about selling the cows now for fear that if this happened all across the state, the cows wouldn’t be worth anything to liquidate. So to get ahead of the curve, you get out of the business now.

Frederica Freyberg:

Very briefly with 30 seconds left, do you really expect that all this will come to pass?

John Rosenow:

I’ve heard this so many times over the last 15 to 20 years and I’m hoping that the same thing that’s happened in the past will happen again, not much. But ever since the election, everything’s on the table it seems. So I think we have laws and I think Secretary — ICE– Kelly– the head of ICE, Kelly, said in Mexico yesterday, I believe it was, they were going to follow the laws and follow the common practices of the United States of human rights. So I have hope.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. John Rosenow, thanks for your time.

John Rosenow:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now for an election update. Incumbent Superintendent of Public Instruction Tony Evers will face off against candidate Lowell Holtz in April 4th general election. Evers easily took this week’s primary with 69% of the vote. And that’s our program for tonight. I'm Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

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Funding for “Here and Now” is provided in part by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.