ANNOUNCER:

FUNDING FOR “HERE AND NOW” IS PROVIDED IN PART BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. TONIGHT ON “HERE AND NOW” A PANEL OF FEDERAL JUDGES PUT THE BRAKES ON WISCONSIN’S REDISTRICTING MAPS. NEW TREATMENT FOR OPIOID ADDICTION FOR STATE PRISONERS. WHY GAS PRICES ARE SO LOW THIS HOLIDAY WEEKEND AND A NEW BOOK ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF THE WISCONSIN IDEA. BUT FIRST, SOME OF THE WORDS USED TO DESCRIBE THIS WEEK’S FEDERAL COURT RULING FINDING WISCONSIN’S ELECTION MAPS UNCONSTITUTIONAL INCLUDE HUGE, UNPRECEDENTED, SURPRISING. A PANEL OF THREE FEDERAL JUDGES DECIDED 2-1 THAT THE 2011 MAPS DRAWN BY REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL WRITING, QUOTE, WE FIND THAT ACT 43 WAS INTENDED TO BURDEN THE REPRESENTATIONAL RIGHTS OF DEMOCRATIC VOTERS THROUGHOUT THE DECENNIAL PERIOD BY IMPEDING THEIR ABILITY TO TRANSLATE THEIR VOTES INTO LEGISLATIVE SEATS. MOREOVER AS DEMONSTRATED BY THE RESULTS OF THE 2012 AND 2014 ELECTIONS AMONG OTHER EVIDENCE, WE CONCLUDE THAT ACT 43 HAS HAD ITS INTENDED EFFECT. FURTHER GOING ON TO SAY THE REDISTRICTING CONSTITUTES AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL POLITICAL GERRYMANDER. SO WHAT’S NEXT? WE’RE JOINED BY WISCONSIN PUBLIC RADIO REPORTER SHAWN JOHNSON WHO HAS BEEN COVERING THIS CASE. SHAWN, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

SHAWN JOHNSON:

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THIS IS BIG BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST TIME FEDERAL JUDGES HAVE STRUCK DOWN A STATE’S MAPS AND IT GOES DIRECTLY TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT ON APPEAL WHICH WISCONSIN’S ATTORNEY GENERAL BRAD SCHIMEL HAS VOWED TO TAKE ON. BUT WHAT ARE THE NATIONAL IMPLICATIONS ON THIS RULING ON WISCONSIN’S MAP?

SHAWN JOHNSON:

IT IS BIG BECAUSE OF THE TYPE OF CASE THAT IT IS. IT’S THE FIRST TIME THAT A MAP HAS BEEN STRUCK DOWN ON THE PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING CLAIM. USUALLY MAPS ARE STRUCK DOWN ON A VARIETY OF OTHER CLAIMS. MAYBE THE VIOLATION OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT FOR THE WAY THEY TREAT MINORITY VOTERS. MAYBE TALKING ABOUT HOW THE MAP IS NOT COMPACT ENOUGH OR BREAKS UP COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST. THIS CHALLENGE SAYS WISCONSIN’S MAP WAS SO BLATANTLY PARTISAN THAT IT WOULD EFFECTIVELY SILENCE DEMOCRATS FOR THE NEXT DECADE. AND SO IF THAT HOLDS AT THE SUPREME COURT LEVEL THAT’S SEISMIC. THAT’S HUGE. IF NOT, THEN IT’S JUST ONE FOOTNOTE IN MANY COURT CASES TO COME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IT’S SEISMIC, IT’S HUGE BECAUSE THEN OTHER STATES START CHALLENGING ON SIMILAR BASES.

SHAWN JOHNSON:

EXACTLY. IN WISCONSIN’S CASE IT WOULD REQUIRE NEW DISTRICT LINES DRAWN. THE COURT HASN’T GOT INTO THAT YET EXACTLY WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE OR, YOU KNOW, WHAT STANDARDS WOULD HAVE TO BE APPLIED WHEN DRAWING THOSE LINES. BUT YOU KNOW THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO DRAW MORE COMPETITIVE DISTRICT LINES IN WISCONSIN. TRANSLATION, THEY’D HAVE TO GIVE DEMOCRATS MORE OF A CHANCE TO WIN IN THIS STATE. BUT APPLIED IN OTHER STATES WHERE, SAY, DEMOCRATS DREW THE LINES, YOU COULD SEE A DIFFERENT OUTCOME. YOU COULD SEE MORE COMPETITIVE DISTRICT LINES BEING DRAWN AND CHALLENGES BEING FILED IN FEDERAL COURT USING THE STANDARDS THAT WERE DEVELOPED IN THIS CASE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE’LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT. IMPLICATIONS IN WISCONSIN INCLUDE A SHOT IN THE ARM FOR DEMOCRATIC PLAINTIFFS AND LEGISLATORS WHO ONCE AGAIN LOST BIG IN THE LATEST ELECTION. HERE’S A COMMENT FROM ASSEMBLY MINORITY LEADER PETER BARCA, QUOTE, THIS IS AN HISTORY VICTORY FOR VOTERS AND A FURTHER ADMONISHMENT OF THE EXTREMELY SLANTED MAPS THAT TRAMPLE THE DEMOCRATIC WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF WISCONSIN. BUT FOR HIS PART REPUBLICAN ASSEMBLY SPEAKER ROBIN VOS SAYS THIS ABOUT THE RULING, QUOTE, REPUBLICANS WIN ELECTIONS BECAUSE WE HAVE BETTER CANDIDATES AND A BETTER MESSAGE THAT CONTINUES TO RESONATE WITH VOTERS. THE COURT HAS ESSENTIALLY CREATED A BRAND-NEW TEST THAT IS SIGNIFICANTLY FLAWED AND IS AN ENCROACHMENT BY THE COURT INTO THE LEGISLATURE’S DUTIES. SO AS FOR THAT BRAND-NEW TEST THAT SPEAKER VOS TALKS ABOUT, IT’S ESSENTIALLY A MEASURE THE PLAINTIFF’S EXPERTS USED TO SHOW PARTISAN GERRYMANDER. IN A PREVIOUS CASE A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY SAID HE WAS LOOKING FOR SOME KIND OF MEASUREMENT, RIGHT? YOU’VE TALKED WITH US ABOUT THIS BEFORE. HOW WAS THE MAP AND ITS EFFECTS MEASURED HERE IN THIS CASE?

SHAWN JOHNSON:

I MEAN, I THINK IT’S WIDELY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT PARTISANSHIP PLAYS A ROLE IN LEGISLATIVE RESTRICTING, PROBABLY ALWAYS HAS. WHAT JUSTIN ANTHONY KENNEDY SAID IN 2004 WAS HE HINTED AT THIS IDEA THAT IF YOU CAN GIVE ME SOME WAY TO MEASURE THIS, TO SHOW THAT IT’S HAPPENING AND A CONCRETE MEASURE, MAYBE WE CAN TALK ABOUT THIS BASICALLY. KENNEDY’S STILL ON THE COURT AND SO WHAT THEY’VE COME UP WITH IN THIS CASE IS SOMETHING CALLED THE EFFICIENCY GAP. BASICALLY WHAT THE EFFICIENCY GAP DOES IS IT LOOKS AT WASTED VOTES IS THE TERM THAT THEY USE. SO JUST TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE A STRONGLY DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATIVE DISTRICT WHERE MAYBE THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE GETS 90% OF THE VOTE, THEY’RE WASTING A LOT OF VOTES THERE. THEY’RE GETTING MORE VOTES THAN THEY NEED TO GET THAT SEAT. ANOTHER EXAMPLE WOULD BE IF YOU HAVE A MORE CLOSELY CONTESTED RACE WHERE SAY THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE GETS 60% OF THE VOTE, THE DEMOCRAT GETS 40% OF THE VOTE. IN THAT SITUATION THE DEMOCRAT IS WASTING 40% OF THE VOTE BECAUSE THEY DIDN’T GET THE SEAT. REPUBLICANS WASTED VERY FEW VOTES TO WIN THE SEAT. YOU COMPARE THE NUMBERS DISTRICT BY DISTRICT TO THE OVERALL VOTE TOTAL STATEWIDE AND THAT GIVES YOU THE NUMBER. AND ESSENTIALLY WHAT IT’S MEASURING IS THE FACT THAT WISCONSIN IS ROUGHLY A 50/50 STATE. IT WAS IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND U. S. SENATE ELECTION. BUT WHEN YOU COMPARE THAT TO THE LEGISLATURE, REPUBLICANS UNDER THIS MAP HAVE ALMOST 2/3 OF THE SEATS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

TWO OF THE THREE JUDGES ON THIS PANEL APPARENTLY UNDERSTOOD THAT MEASUREMENT AND VOTED THAT THESE MAPS ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL. BUT MEANWHILE DID THEY GIVE ANY INSTRUCTION AS TO POTENTIAL REMEDY?

SHAWN JOHNSON:

YEAH, THAT’S WHY WE DON’T KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS FOR WISCONSIN IN THE SHORT TERM BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO BE BRIEFED ON THAT. BOTH SIDES ARE GOING TO GET A CHANCE TO WEIGH IN BEFORE THE COURT ON WHAT THAT REMEDY SHOULD LOOK LIKE, WHETHER THE COURT SHOULD STEP IN AND DRAW LINES OF ITS OWN, SINCE THIS LEGISLATURE WAS ELECTED UNDER THOSE DISTRICT LINES, DO YOU WANT THEM THEN DRAWING NEW DISTRICT LINES FOR THEMSELVES? OR WOULD THE COURT SAY HERE ARE THE NEW STANDARDS YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW, LEGISLATURE, YOU DRAW UP MAPS THAT ADHERE TO THOSE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

A LITTLE MESSY. SHAWN JOHNSON, THANKS VERY MUCH.

SHAWN JOHNSON:

YOU’RE WELCOME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THE USE OF HEROIN IN WISCONSIN IS FOUR TIMES THE NATIONAL AVERAGE AND IN ONE PART OF THE STATE ITS USE GREW BY TRIPLE DIGITS IN JUST TWO YEARS. AS PART OF A STATE EFFORT TO STEM HEROIN USE, ABUSE AND ADDICTION THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS THIS SPRING EMBARKED ON A PILOT PROGRAM IN COUNTIES AROUND GREEN BAY WHERE THE AGENCY RUNS FIVE INSTITUTIONS. THE PILOT INCLUDES GIVING A DRUG THAT BLOCKS THE HIGH OF HEROIN TO SOON-TO-BE RELEASED INMATES AND OFFENDERS ON COMMUNITY SUPERVISION. THE DRUG IS CALLED VIVITROL. AND STUDIES HAVE SHOWN 25% OF PEOPLE WHO GET THE MONTHLY INJECTIONS RELAPSE WITHIN A YEAR COMPARED TO 59% WHO AREN’T GIVEN THE DRUG. HOW IS THE $1.7 MILLION TWO YEAR PILOT PROGRESSING IN WISCONSIN AND WILL THE WISCONSIN DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS SEEK TO CONTINUE AND EXPAND IT? WE TURN TO CORRECTIONS SECRETARY JON LITSCHER. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

JON LITSCHER:

NICE TO BE HERE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ON THIS DRUG CALLED VIVITROL HOW DOES USING IT DIFFER FROM, SAY, TREATMENT WITH METHADONE?

JON LITSCHER:

THE BASIC TREATMENT OF VIVITROL IS AN INJECTION AND THE INJECTION GOES INTO EFFECT IMMEDIATELY AND IT LASTS WITH A PERSON THAT HAS BEEN INJECTED, AN OFFENDER IN THIS CASE, FOR AN ENTIRE MONTH. WHERE THE OTHER METHADONE BASICALLY IS A PILL AND IT IS A DAILY ACTIVITY, AND IT HAS TO BE ADMINISTERED. METHADONE HAS TO BE ADMINISTERED AT A CERTIFIED SITE. AS A RESULT, THE ASPECT FOR OUR POPULATION THAT IS PARTICIPATING IN THE PILOT, THE VIVITROL PLUS THE WRAPAROUND SERVICES WE FEEL IS MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE AND IT’S LESS INTRUSIVE IN AN OFFENDER’S LIFE WHEN HE WANTS TO GO TO WORK OR SHE WANTS TO GO TO WORK OR WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE WITH THEIR DAILY LIVES. THIS METHODOLOGY, THIS MEDICATION-ASSISTED TREATMENT, VIVITROL, MEETS OUR OFFENDERS’ NEEDS BETTER AND WE THINK IS A MORE EFFECTIVE LONG-TERM SOLUTION TO THE CRAVINGS THAT OPIOID-INJECTED — OR OPIOID REPLACEMENT. ANY TYPE OF AN OPIATE ADDICTION MAY CAUSE. ALSO WITH METHADONE, THAT IS AN OPIOID-BASED MEDICATION AND AS A RESULT THAT CAN STABILIZE AN OFFENDER IF THEY’RE ON A DAILY TREATMENT BUT IT IS STILL OPIATE BASED IN THEIR SYSTEM. WE HAVE PREFERRED TO GO TO A NON-OPIATE BASED INJECTION OF VIVITROL AND THEN WITH THE WRAPAROUND SERVICES. I CAN’T INTERJECT ENOUGH THAT CRITICAL IS THE SUPPORT SERVICES WITH THE INJECTION, NOT JUST THE INJECTION ITSELF.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO ARE YOU SEEING SUCCESS WITH THIS PILOT, WITH THE PEOPLE USING THIS DRUG?

JON LITSCHER:

WE BELIEVE SO. I THINK WE HAVE ONLY BEEN — WE BEGAN THIS IN APRIL OF 2016. WE DON’T HAVE ANY WHAT I CALL LONGITUDINAL STUDIES BUT ANECDOTALLY, YES, WE DO SEE SUCCESS WITH THOSE INDIVIDUALS CURRENTLY STAYING WITH THE PROGRAM. WE CURRENLTY HAVE 49 INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE INVOLVED WITH THE INJECTION ON A MONTHLY BASIS, PLUS THE SUPPORT SERVICES. AND THEY ARE MAINTAINING THEIR LIVES, CRIME-FREE AND THEY ARE MAINTAINING THEIR LIVES AS A PRODUCTIVE CITIZEN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT HAS BEEN THE EXPERIENCE IN OTHER STATES THAT HAVE ALSO TRIED THIS?

JON LITSCHER:

AGAIN, THERE JUST HASN’T BEEN THE STUDIES THAT HAVE — CAN IDENTIFY SUCCESS. I THINK YOU MENTIONED THE ONE EARLIER THAT IT SHOWS THAT THOSE INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE VIVITROL USE THAT, THEIR RECIDIVISM REPEAT RATE HAS BEEN BASICALLY CUT IN HALF. AND IF THAT STUDY HOLDS UP, THEN IT ABSOLUTELY IS WORTH NOT ONLY THE MONEY THAT IS SPENT BUT THE EFFORT THAT IS SPENT TO WORK ON A TOTAL PROGRAM FOR SERVICES FOR THESE OFFENDERS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

HOW BIG IS THE OPIOID PROBLEM AMONG INMATES IN WISCONSIN PRISONS?

JON LITSCHER:

WE CURRENTLY HAVE IDENTIFIED JUST A LITTLE OVER 7% OF OUR POPULATION THAT HAS SOME FORM OF OPIATE ADDICTION ISSUE, WHICH AMOUNTS TO APPROXIMATELY 1600 OFFENDERS. SO THE BASE THAT IS THERE TO DRAW FROM IS LARGE. ALTHOUGH WE DO USE IT IN CONJUNCTION WITH WHAT WE CALL THE EARNED RELEASE PROGRAM WHERE A JUDGE FOR ALCOHOL OR DRUG DEPENDENCY CAN GIVE AN EARNED RELEASE DATE WHICH WOULD BE LESS THAN HIS OR HER RELEASE DATE PROVIDING THEY DO THE TREATMENT INSIDE AND CONTINUE WITH THE SUPPORT SERVICES ONCE THEY ARE ON THE STREET.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BECAUSE THIS IS A VOLUNTARY PROGRAM. THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN IT HAVE TO SAY YES, I WANT TO DO THAT. WHAT ARE THE KNOWN RISKS OF THIS DRUG, THOUGH?

JON LITSCHER:

I’M NOT A MEDICAL DOCTOR SO WHAT I’M TELLING YOU IS BASICALLY WHAT I HAVE READ AND WHAT I HAVE HEARD. SO I MUST SAY THAT AS A CAVEAT. THE BASIC ISSUE OF REAL CAUSE AND CONCERN IS BECAUSE THIS BLOCKS THE ADDICTION HIGH THAT COMES FROM USING AN OPIATE, A PERSON TO GET — WILL NOT FEEL THE EFFECTS OF AN OPIATE-INGESTED PILL OR HEROIN SHOT ITSELF AND AS A RESULT, THEY CAN OVERDOSE SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE TAKING MORE AND MORE AND MORE AND THEN IT BECOMES A PULMONARY CAUSE AND AS A RESULT COULD OVERDOSE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING IT. YESTERDAY I SPENT THE ENTIRE DAY — I’M ON THE OPIATE HEROIN TASK FORCE THAT WAS ESTABLISHED BY THE GOVERNOR HERE JUST RECENTLY CHAIRED BY LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR AND REPRESENTATIVE NYGREN. THAT CAME OUT VERY LOUD AND CLEAR BY THE MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS, INDIVIDUALS THAT WERE ON THE COMMITTEE THAT THAT IS ONE OF THE RISKS. ANOTHER RISK, YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO BEFORE ANY INJECTION HAVE TO KNOW THAT THE OFFENDER IN OUR CASE HAS BEEN SEVEN DAYS OPIATE FREE OR IT COULD CAUSE A VERY, VERY SERIOUS REACTION AND WITHDRAWAL PROBLEM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

HAVE YOU HAD ANY OF THOSE EXPERIENCES?

JON LITSCHER:

NONE. NO, WE HAVEN’T, AS OF YET.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AT WHAT POINT WOULD THE USE OF VIVITROL BROADEN BEYOND THIS PILOT?

JON LITSCHER:

WELL I THINK IF OUR STUDIES SUPPORT THE CONCLUSIONS ON A NATIONAL STUDY THAT SAYS YES, IN FACT THESE PEOPLE ARE REMAINING DRUG-FREE. THEY HAVE THE SUPPORT SERVICES OVER A 12-MONTH PERIOD BECAUSE OUR PROGRAM IS A 12-MONTH INJECTION AND SUPPORT PROGRAM, THAT THEY STAY DRUG-FREE, THEY’RE INTEGRATING BACK INTO THEIR COMMUNITIES. THEY’RE INTEGRATING BACK INTO JOBS. THEY’RE INTEGRATING BACK INTO THEIR FAMILIES AND IT’S A STABLE ENVIRONMENT, THEN IF WE SEE THIS, THEN I SAY IT’S WORTH THE MONEY AND EFFORT THAT IS BEING SPENT. AND I THINK IT IS. WE HAVE ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE TO THAT FACT BUT WE JUST DON’T HAVE THE CONCRETE STATISTICAL DATA THAT SAYS YES, IT DOES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS.

JON LITSCHER:

IT’S A PLEASURE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW THIS CONSUMER NEWS. FILLED UP YOUR GAS TANK LATELY? WELL IT IS TAKING A LOT LESS MONEY TO DO SO. PRICES HOVERING AT LESS THAN $2 PER GALLON RIGHT NOW. WHAT’S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE GOOD FORTUNE FOR DRIVERS IF NOT THE INDUSTRY? EARLIER THIS WEEK WE TALKED WITH PATRICK DEHAAN, SENIOR PETROLEUM ANALYST WITH GASBUDDY IN CHICAGO. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

PATRICK DEHAAN:

MY PLEASURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU WROTE THIS WEEK THAT OVER THE THANKSGIVING TRAVEL PERIOD MOTORISTS WILL BE COLLECTIVELY SPENDING NEARLY $1. 7 BILLION LESS AT THE GAS PUMP THAN THE FIVE-YEAR AVERAGE. IF WE SPEND LESS ON GAS, DO WE SPEND MORE ELSEWHERE? HOW DO LOW GAS PRICES AFFECT THE ECONOMY OVERALL?

PATRICK DEHAAN:

IT’S FUNNELED INTO SEVERAL DIFFERENT AREAS. SOME MOTORISTS MAY BE SAVING IT UP, PAYING OFF BILLS AS WE APPROACH THE HOLIDAYS WHEREAS OTHERS MAY MAKE AN EXCUSE THAT GAS PRICES ARE SO LOW I’M GOING TO USE THE SAVINGS AND HIT THE ROAD THIS THANKSGIVING. IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU TALK TO WHERE THEY’RE SPENDING THAT MONEY, BUT YEAH, CERTAINLY ANECDOTALLY A GOOD CHUNK OF THAT MAY BE GOING BACK INTO THE ECONOMY IN DIFFERENT FORMS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHERE DO WISCONSIN’S PRICES STAND COMPARATIVELY?

PATRICK DEHAAN:

GAS PRICES IN WISCONSIN GENERALLY A FEW CENTS UNDER THE NATIONAL AVERAGE. THAT’S WHAT WE’RE SEEING TODAY. ABOUT 4 CENTS UNDER THE NATIONAL AVERAGE. VERY SIMILAR TO LAST YEAR WHEN PRICES IN WISCONSIN WERE ABOUT 3 CENTS LOWER. THAT’S KIND OF WISCONSIN’S NORMAL ROLE, IF YOU WILL. SO LONG AS REGIONAL REFINERIES ARE DOING OKAY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WHY ARE PRICES SO LOW COMPARED TO WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN PRIOR YEARS?

PATRICK DEHAAN:

WELL, IT ALL STARTED TWO YEARS AGO ON A FATEFUL THANKSGIVING WEEKEND WHEN OPEC OR THE SAUDIS I SHOULD SAY INDICATED THEY WERE GOING TO OPEN THE SPIGOTS UP AND PRODUCE AS MUCH OIL AS POSSIBLE TO FEND OFF INCREASES IN U.S. OIL PRODUCTION. THAT REALLY STARTED A PRICE WAR AMONGST OIL PRODUCERS THAT BROUGHT THE PRICE OF OIL DOWN TO WHERE IT CURRENTLY IS AND WE’VE HAD THE LAST TWO YEARS OF LOW OIL PRICES. ALL ON ACCOUNT OF HIGHER SUPPLY THAN WHAT WE SEE FOR DEMAND.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THOSE LOW GAS PRICES ALA OPEC ARE GOOD FOR CONSUMERS BUT WHAT ABOUT OUR DOMESTIC PRODUCERS?

PATRICK DEHAAN:

WELL, CERTAINLY IT HAS CAUSED A LOT OF DOMESTIC OIL PRODUCTION TO GO OFF LINE. IN FACT, U.S. DOMESTIC OIL PRODUCTION HAS TAKEN A HIT OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS AS OIL PRICES HAVE FALTERED. IT IS A DIRECT TIE. THE LOWER THE OIL PRICES, THE MORE DAMAGE TO THE OIL INDUSTRY. WE’VE SEEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF LAYOFFS IN THE INDUSTRY AS A RESULT OF LOW PRICES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO IT’S CERTAINLY A DOUBLE EDGED SWORD IN THAT WAY. WHAT’S THE SITUATION INTERNATIONALLY WITH OIL-PRODUCING COUNTRIES AND THEIR SUPPLY? SAME THING?

PATRICK DEHAAN:

WELL, CERTAINLY TO SOME DEGREE. IN FACT, IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS OPEC WILL BE MEETING TO DISCUSS HOW TO SHORE UP THE PRICE OF OIL AFTER TWO YEARS OF DEPRESSED PRICES. THERE’S BEEN SOME INTERESTING DYNAMICS. OF COURSE IRAN IS A NEWCOMER AGAIN TO THE OIL PRODUCTION SIDE OF THINGS AS THE WEST HAS EASED SANCTIONS AGAINST THEM BECAUSE OF THEIR NUCLEAR DESIRE. THAT’S THE NEW FACTOR HERE IS IRAN IS NOW PUMPING OIL WHEREAS TWO YEARS AGO IT WAS NOT. THAT’S ADDING TO A GLOBAL GLUT. THERE ARE CERTAINLY SOME INTERESTING DYNAMICS. THE SAUDIS, OPEC’S NUMBER ONE OIL PRODUCER NOW REALLY HAVING TO FIGHT OFF IRAN WHO IS SEEKING TO INCREASE OIL PRODUCTION ITSELF.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, SO WHY WOULDN’T OIL-PRODUCING COUNTRIES JUST STEP ON THE SUPPLY TO BOOST THE PRICE, HAVING NOW REALLY DONE INJURY TO U.S. PRODUCERS?

PATRICK DEHAAN:

WELL, PREVIOUSLY THAT WOULD BE VERY EASILY ACCOMPLISHED JUST BY OPEC CUTTING BACK. IT WOULD MEAN THAT THE U.S. WHO USED TO BE VERY RELIANT ON OPEC WOULDN’T HAVE ANY AVENUES TO GO DOWN. BUT NOW U.S. SHALE PRODUCERS WHICH PREVIOUSLY WERE ONLINE IN THE LAST TWO YEAR, THEY COULD COME BACK ONLINE, EFFECTIVELY SETTING A CEILING FOR HOW HIGH OIL PRICES GO. IF OIL PRICES WERE TO BREACH 50 OR 60 A BARREL THOSE SHALE PRODUCERS THAT HAD GONE OFFLINE MAY RETURN TO THE GAME AGAIN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND SO THIS COULD REALLY BE A KIND OF A ROLLER COASTER DEPENDING WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS GLOBAL MARKET. WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM PROSPECT FOR GAS PRICES? DOES ANYBODY HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL?

PATRICK DEHAAN:

I WISH WE DID. IT WOULD BE MUCH EASIER. I THINK RIGHT NOW THE NUMBER ONE TOPIC THAT WE’RE LOOKING AT IS WHAT OPEC WILL DO NOT ONLY THEIR ACTIONS, BUT THEIR COMMENTS. WILL OPEC COUNTRIES AGREE? WILL THE SAUDIS GO AFTER IRAN? WILL IRAN GO AFTER THE SAUDIS? IT’S VERY INTERESTING TO WATCH THE DYNAMIC AMONGST OPEC PRODUCERS. THAT REALLY SETS THE TONE FOR WHAT TO EXPECT IN THE FUTURE. IF ALL OPEC VOICES CAN BE ALIGNED ON A PRODUCTION CUT, THAT COULD WELL FOR OIL PRICES AND POORLY FOR AMERICAN MOTORISTS. BUT NO MATTER WHAT OPEC DECIDES, IF THEY DO CUT PRODUCTION, SHALE PRODUCERS WILL LIKELY EAGERLY BE WAITING ON THE SIDELINES FOR OIL PRICES TO RISE BEFORE THEY REOPEN OPERATIONS. SO THERE IS REALLY A FINITE AMOUNT OF PATHS FOR OIL. I DO NOT SEE OIL PRICES GOING OVER 60 OR 65 A BARREL ANY TIME IN THE NEXT YEAR OR SO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR EXPERTISE, PATRICK DEHAAN OUT OF CHICAGO.

PATRICK DEHAAN:

MY PLEASURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE NAMESAKE OF UW MADISON’S ICONIC BASCOM HALL ATOP BASCOM HILL? A NEW BOOK DIVES INTO THE MAN WHO WAS UW PRESIDENT FROM 1874 TO 1887 TITLE “JOHN BASCOM AND THE ORIGINS OF THE WISCONSIN IDEA.” ITS AUTHOR UW MILWAUKEE PROFESSOR J. DAVID HOEVELER. HE JOINS US WITH MORE. PROFESSOR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

DAVID HOEVELER:

A PLEASURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IN KEEPING WITH THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK, WHAT CONNECTION DID JOHN BASCOM HAVE TO ROBERT LAFOLLETTE AND CHARLES VAN HISE WHO DID PUT THE WISCONSIN IDEA INTO PLACE IN THE EARLY 1900S?

DAVID HOEVELER:

YES, INDEED. BOTH OF THEM WERE IN THE CLASS OF 1879. AND, OF COURSE, WENT ON TO HAVE MAJOR ROLES IN WISCONSIN, ONE AS GOVERNOR IN THE PROGRESSIVE ERA AND THE OTHER AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY FROM 1903 TO 1918. CHARLES VAN HISE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT WAS BASCOM’S MESSAGE THAT BECAME SO INSPIRATIONAL TO THESE FRAMERS OF THE WISCONSIN IDEA?

DAVID HOEVELER:

WELL, THERE IS A LARGE INTELLECTUAL BACKGROUND TO THAT QUESTION. WHAT I WANTED TO DO IN THE BOOK WAS TO TAKE THIS IDEA, WISCONSIN IDEA AND SEE IF WE COULD GET SOME INTELLECTUAL DEPTH TO IT BY LOOKING AT JOHN BASCOM BECAUSE HE WAS FIRST AND FOREMOST, A PHILOSOPHER, THEOLOGIAN, SOCIOLOGIST. HE WROTE ON A VARIETY OF SUBJECTS. AND THE WAY HE TREATED THOSE SUBJECTS LED HIM INTO ACTIVE POLITICAL AND SOCIAL ENGAGEMENTS. HE WAS —

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

GO AHEAD.

DAVID HOEVELER:

WELL, TO MENTION JUST VERY BRIEFLY. HIS CAUSES WERE TEMPERANCE, WOMEN’S RIGHTS AND THE CAUSE OF LABOR BUT HIS OVERALL MESSAGE TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION WAS ON THE VALUE OF THE STATE, THE NECESSITY OF LOYALTY TO THE STATE ON BEHALF OF THE GRADUATES OF THE PUBLIC UNIVERSITY. AND LAFOLLETTE ALWAYS MENTIONED THIS WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT JOHN BASCOM AS HIS TEACHER. THIS IS WHAT HE TOOK AWAY FROM HIS CLASSROOMS, THAT THE STATE SHOULD HAVE A LARGE ROLE IN PRESERVING THE ORGANIC UNITY OF SOCIETY AND IN ADDRESSING THE NEEDS TO DEAL WITH SOCIAL JUSTICE AND TO BRING INTO THE LARGE PUBLIC LIFE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT OF IT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

INTERESTINGLY YOU TALKED ABOUT KIND OF THREE OF THE TENETS OF HIS WORKING PHILOSOPHY. ON THE LATTER TWO, WOMEN’S RIGHTS AND WORKER RIGHTS, HOW MUCH DID HIS POSITION ON EQUALITY FOR WOMEN DIVERGE FROM THE THINKING AT THE TIME?

DAVID HOEVELER:

HE WAS VERY PROGRESSIVE. HE WAS AHEAD OF MANY OF THE FEMALE REFORMISTS OF THE DAY. HE TOOK A STANCE ON BEHALF OF THE RIGHTS OF DIVORCE. SOME WOMEN LEADERS DIDN’T LIKE IT BECAUSE THEY FELT HUSBANDS WOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. HE WAS COMMITTED TO WOMEN’S SUFFRAGE. THERE WAS A DIVISION IN THE MOVEMENT OFTEN BETWEEN THOSE WHO FELT THIS WAS NOT THE MAJOR PART OF THE REFORM CAUSE FOR WOMEN. AND, OF COURSE, CO-EDUCATION. FROM THE TIME HE WAS AT WILLIAMS COLLEGE, WHICH WAS HIS ALMA MATER AND WHERE HE TAUGHT FOR TWO DECADES BEFORE HE CAME TO MADISON, HE WANTED WILLIAMS TO BE CO-EDUCATIONAL. HE LOST THE CAUSE. BUT HERE IN WISCONSIN, IT WAS NOT SO MUCH A QUESTION OF CO-EDUCATION AS IT WAS A UNIFORM CURRICULUM. MANY PEOPLE INSISTED THAT WOMEN FOR VARIOUS REASONS SHOULD HAVE A SEPARATE CURRICULUM. THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE A DEMANDING INTELLECTUAL CHALLENGES THAT MEN HAVE. HE REJECTED THAT NOTION THOROUGHLY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT ABOUT HIS POSITIONS ON THE WORKING MAN IN THAT GILDED AGE OF THE ROCKEFELLERS AND VANDERBILTS?

DAVID HOEVELER:

YES, INDEED. UNLIKE ALMOST ANY OTHER PRESIDENT OF A MAJOR UNIVERSITY, BASCOM SUPPORTED NOT ONLY THE RIGHT TO UNIONIZE BUT THE RIGHT TO STRIKE. AND IN THE ARRAY OF PUBLIC OPINION AT THAT TIME, THAT WOULD HAVE PUT HIM PRETTY FAR ON THE PROGRESSIVE SIDE. SOME WHO CHAMPIONED UNIONS STILL DIDN’T ENDORSE THE STRIKE. BUT BASCOM SAID THIS IS AN AGE OF ORGANIZATION AND LABOR MUST HAVE THE POWER TO ORGANIZE AS DO THE TRUST AND CORPORATIONS AS YOU MENTIONED.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WITH JUST ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT, PROFESSOR, IF JOHN BASCOM COULD SEE THE WORLD TODAY AND THE UW’S PLACE IN IT BEING A SCHOLAR OF HIS WORK AND PHILOSOPHY, WHAT WOULD HE THINK?

DAVID HOEVELER:

WELL, JOHN BASCOM WAS COMMITTED TO THE HUMAN MIND. AND EVERY ONE OF THE INTELLECTUAL ISSUES IN WHICH HE WAS ENGAGED, PHILOSOPHICAL IDEALISM, LIBERAL PROTESTANTISM AND EVOLUTION. HE TOOK THE SIDE THAT GAVE THE MOST LEGITIMACY TO THE HUMAN MIND TO KNOW THE WORLD. TO UNDERSTAND THE INTEGRATION OF MATERIAL AND SPIRITUAL REALITY. AND IN HIS REPORTS TO THE REGENTS AND OTHER PLACES, HE WAS INSISTENT UPON KEEPING AN OPEN UNIVERSITY. EXPANDING NEW DISCIPLINES. BUT ABOVE ALL, HAVING AN UNTRAMMELED PURSUIT OF KNOWLEDGE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

PROFESSOR HOEVELER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK “JOHN BASCOM AND THE ORIGINS OF THE WISCONSIN IDEA.” A MUST READ FOR PEOPLE FROM HERE AND OTHERS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

DAVID HOEVELER:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE WANT TO BRING YOU THIS ADDENDUM TO A SEGMENT WE AIRED LAST WEEK, A PHONE NUMBER. A VIEWER CORRECTLY POINTED OUT THAT WHEN WE INTERVIEWED KATHLEEN FALK ON HEALTH CARE PLANS WE FAILED TO PROVIDE THE PHONE NUMBER AND THE WEBSITE FOR HELP ENROLLING. THAT PHONE NUMBER IS 800-318-2596. THE WEB PAGE ADDRESS IS COVERINGWI.ORG. THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. HAVE A SAFE HOLIDAY WEEKEND.

ANNOUNCER:

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