ANNOUNCER:

THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS PART OF OUR “HERE AND NOW” 2016 WISCONSIN VOTE ELECTION COVERAGE. FUNDING FOR “HERE AND NOW” IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. TONIGHT ON “HERE AND NOW,” ALL THINGS ELECTION WRAP, INCLUDING A LOOK AT SENATOR RON JOHNSON’S SECOND TERM. WHAT IN THE WORLD HAPPENED WITH ALL THOSE POLLS? UNDERSTANDING THE DISENFRANCHISED VOTE AND A DROP-OFF IN TURNOUT IN MILWAUKEE. BUT FIRST, WISCONSIN WENT ALL IN FOR REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES TUESDAY, INCLUDING A WINNING NIGHT FOR INCUMBENT U.S. SENATOR RON JOHNSON. ZAC SCHULTZ WAS THERE.

ANNOUNCER ON TV:

NOW PROJECTING THAT SENATOR RON JOHNSON WILL BEAT BACK A CHALLENGE FROM DEMOCRAT RUSS FEINGOLD IN A HARD-FOUGHT BATTLE. RON JOHNSON WILL WIN THAT STATE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THE ANNOUNCEMENT CAUGHT THE ROOM BY SURPRISE. JUST BEFORE 10:00, WISCONSIN U.S. SENATE’S RACE WAS CALLED FOR RON JOHNSON. AND HIS SUPPORTERS CHEERED AND HUGGED. THEY KEPT CHEERING AS REPUBLICANS KEPT WINNING ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

RON JOHNSON:

THANK YOU. THANK YOU.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]

ZAC SCHULTZ:

EVEN JOHNSON WAS SURPRISED HOW EARLY THE RACE WAS OVER.

RON JOHNSON:

THANK YOU, WISCONSIN. I’M PRETTY SURPRISED BY THIS RESULT. I THOUGHT THIS MIGHT BE KIND OF A LATE NIGHT, SO…

RUSS FEINGOLD:

OH, MY FRIENDS.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

ACROSS THE STATE, DEMOCRAT RUSS FEINGOLD WAS IN SHOCK AS WELL, DEFEATED FOR THE SECOND TIME BY RON JOHNSON.

RUSS FEINGOLD:

I REALLY WANTED TO GET THIS DONE, BUT OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING IS HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY TONIGHT. I DON’T UNDERSTAND IT COMPLETELY. I DON’T THINK ANYBODY DOES.

RON JOHNSON:

IT’S A BIG NIGHT FOR WISCONSIN. IT’S A BIG NIGHT FOR AMERICA.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

EVEN AS JOHNSON CELEBRATED THE WIN, HE WAS THINKING ABOUT HIS GOALS BACK IN WASHINGTON, WITH REPUBLICANS IN COMPLETE CONTROL OF CONGRESS AND A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT.

RON JOHNSON:

THIS IS A REAL OPPORTUNITY.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

HE SAYS HIS PRIORITIES INCLUDE REGULATORY AND TAX REFORM.

RON JOHNSON:

THAT WILL HEAL OUR ECONOMY, WHICH WILL ALLOW US TO STRENGTHEN OUR MILITARY, DEFEAT ISIS, SECURE OUR BORDER. I’M LOOKING FORWARD TO HOPEFULLY CONFIRMING JUDGES TO THE SUPREME COURT.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

AND A FULL REPEAL OF THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

RON JOHNSON:

WE’LL HAVE A FULL REPEAL AND REPLACE PLAN FOR OBAMACARE. THAT’S A GOOD PLACE TO START.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

JOHNSON STARTED OFF IN THE MINORITY IN THE U.S. SENATE, SO HE KNOWS THE POWER OF THE FILIBUSTER TO PREVENT LEGISLATION FROM PASSING, BUT HE SAYS HE WOULD NOT SUPPORT ELIMINATING IT IN ORDER TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR REPUBLICANS TO PASS THEIR AGENDA.

RON JOHNSON:

THE 60-VOTE THRESHOLD IN THE SENATE WAS PART OF THE GENIUS OF OUR FOUNDING FATHERS. WE ARE THE CHECK WITHIN CONGRESS. SO I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND REDUCING THAT 60-VOTE THRESHOLD ON LEGISLATION.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

WHILE JOHNSON SAYS HE’S LOOKING TO THE FUTURE AND WILLING TO WORK ACROSS THE AISLE —

RON JOHNSON:

I DON’T CARE WHAT DIVIDES US. LET’S CONCENTRATE ON WHAT WE AGREE ON.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

HE ALSO SAYS THERE’S SOME UNFINISHED BUSINESS WITH HILLARY CLINTON’S EMAILS. AND HE’D LIKE TO SEE HER PROSECUTED.

RON JOHNSON:

THOSE ARE SERIOUS CRIMES. THERE ARE PEOPLE SPENDING TIME IN JAIL HAVING DONE FAR LESS. I THINK SECRETARY CLINTON NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

JOHNSON ALSO REITERATED A PROMISE HE MADE ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL THAT HE WILL NOT SEEK RE-ELECTION TO A THIRD TERM IN 2022. ON THE PRESIDENTIAL FRONT DONALD TRUMP WON WISCONSIN NARROWLY, BY ABOUT 27,000 VOTES. BUT GOING INTO THE ELECTION, THE HILLARY CLINTON CAMP APPARENTLY BELIEVED SHE HAD A QUOTE DURABLE LEAD, PARTLY BACKED BY POLLING THAT PUT HER SIX POINTS UP THE WEEK BEFORE. NOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE ASKING ABOUT THE POLLS IN THIS ELECTION AND WHAT HAPPENED. DIRECTOR OF THE MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL POLL, CHARLES FRANKLIN, IS HERE. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

GOOD TO BE HERE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO TO THAT QUESTION, WHAT DID HAPPEN WITH THE POLLS?

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

WELL, WE WERE WRONG. THAT’S THE EASIEST THING. BUT IT’S STRIKING THAT ACROSS THE BOARD POLLS HAD CLINTON LEADING SIX IN MY POLL, BUT IT AVERAGED SIX. THERE WERE SEVEN AND EIGHTS. OVER THE ENTIRE YEAR NOT ONE POLL SHOWED TRUMP WINNING HERE IN THIS STATE. AND SO THAT RAISES A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT SYSTEMIC ERRORS. WERE WE LEAVING OUT TRUMP VOTERS, FOR EXAMPLE?

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

RIGHT.

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

AND THAT’S AN IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT POLLSTERS AS A PROFESSION WILL BE STUDYING. BUT THE CURIOUS THING IS OUR POLL WAS SHOWING JOHNSON MOVING AHEAD, GOING FROM A TEN-POINT FEINGOLD LEAD TO FIVE POINTS TO TWO TO JUST ONE POINT A WEEK BEFORE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

RIGHT.

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

INSIDE THE MARGIN OF ERROR AND A CLEAR TOSS-UP. AND WE SAW A MOVEMENT IN THE PERCEPTIONS OF JOHNSON AND OF FEINGOLD. WE DIDN’T SEE ANY OF THAT MOVEMENT ON THE PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

WELL, IF IT WERE JUST THE SAMPLING, IF WE WERE LEAVING OUT REPUBLICANS, YOU WOULDN’T THINK WE WOULD HAVE CAUGHT THE SENATE MOVES THAT WE DID. SO LATE DECIDERS IS ONE POSSIBILITY. THE EXIT POLLS FOUND 14% HERE IN WISCONSIN WHO DECIDED IN THE LAST WEEK. AND THEY BROKE 58 TO 31 FOR TRUMP. AND AMONG PEOPLE WHO HAD A NEGATIVE VIEW OF BOTH PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES — AND THAT WAS 22% — THOSE FOLKS BROKE 58 TO 22 FOR CLINTON — 58 FOR TRUMP. SO WE SAW THAT PEOPLE WHO HAD RESERVATIONS ABOUT THE CANDIDATES OR DECIDED LATE OVERWHELMINGLY, WHEN THEY DID DECIDE, WENT TO TRUMP. WHY THAT HAPPENED, WHY WE DIDN’T SEE IT BEFOREHAND, THOSE ARE REALLY GOOD QUESTIONS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS AS TO WHY THE LATE-BREAKERS WOULD HAVE GONE TO TRUMP, THOUGH?

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

THAT’S PART OF THE MYSTERY. THE OBVIOUS IS THE FBI LETTER, WHICH REINVIGORATED CLINTON’S EMAIL SERVER SCANDAL OR ISSUE. THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT HAD DOGGED HER THROUGHOUT THE CAMPAIGN. AND TO SEE IT RE-EMERGE AT THE END MAY HAVE HELPED PEOPLE SHIFT ON THAT. IN OUR LAST POLL, WE DID ABOUT HALF THE INTERVIEWS BEFORE THE FBI LETTER AND HALF AFTER, AND WE DID SEE INDEPENDENTS SHIFT FROM LEANING FOR CLINTON TO LEANING FOR TRUMP. BUT IT WASN’T ENOUGH TO REVERSE THE LEAD IN OUR POLL OVER THAT WEEKEND WHEN THE LETTER CAME OUT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

RIGHT. SO HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED BEFORE?

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

OH, SURE. REMEMBER DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN IN ’48. IN AN ODD WAY, THAT’S A HELPFUL MESSAGE. THAT TOO WAS A BIG SURPRISE AND IT LED TO THE POLLING INDUSTRY STUDYING ITSELF AND CHANGING ITS METHODOLOGY TO BECOME BETTER. THE HOPE, OF COURSE, FOR ME AND FOR MY PROFESSION IS THAT WE, TOO, WILL RESPOND TO THIS FAILURE AND MAKE IT BETTER NEXT TIME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS AT THIS MOMENT WHAT THOSE CHANGES WOULD BE?

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE PRETTY OBVIOUS. IF IT REALLY WAS LATE DECIDERS, THEN THERE’S A REALLY SIMPLE SOLUTION. POLL UP THROUGH THE WEEKEND BEFORE THE ELECTION. THAT HAS SOME NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES, BUT WOULD CERTAINLY ADDRESS THE LATE DECIDER ISSUE AND IT’S VERY EASY TO DO. OTHER THINGS CHANGE THE WAY WE SAMPLE. MAYBE WE SHOULD SAMPLE FROM VOTER LISTS RATHER THAN RANDOM DIGIT DIALING, WHICH IS — IT’S NOT CLEAR THAT EITHER OF THOSE DID BETTER THIS YEAR, THOUGH. SO WE’LL HAVE TO LOOK TO SEE WERE THERE METHODOLOGIES THAT WERE CLEARLY BETTER, IN WHICH CASE WE’LL ALL BE WILLING TO ADOPT THEM. OR ARE THERE PROBLEMS THAT ARE MAYBE MORE INTRACTABLE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I DON’T THINK YOU’VE ADDRESSED THIS YET. WHAT ABOUT THAT QUESTION OF THE HIDDEN TRUMP VOTER, PEOPLE YOU SURVEYED NOT TELLING YOU TRUTHFULLY HOW THEY VOTED.

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

IT’S ENTIRELY POSSIBLE AND THE EVIDENCE SEEMS TO SUPPORT THAT. TRUMP DOES BETTER IN THE EXITS COMPARED TO OUR POLL, BUT HE DOES BETTER ACROSS ALMOST EVERY GROUP OF VOTERS. IT’S NOT JUST WHITE WORKING CLASS OR RURAL. IT’S EVERY GROUP WITH TWO OR THREE EXCEPTIONS, WERE BETTER FOR TRUMP. THAT WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH A HIDDEN VOTE, BUT IT WOULD ALSO BE CONSISTENT WITH A LATE VOTE. SO THE NEXT FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS WE’RE GOING TO BE STUDYING THIS IN GREAT DETAIL TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WAS IT LATE DECIDERS, WAS IT A HIDDEN VOTE OR POSSIBLY IS IT THAT TRUMP VOTERS SIMPLY WOULDN’T DO POLLS WITH ANYONE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

RIGHT.

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

AND SO THEY WEREN’T SIMPLY DENYING HOW THEY WERE GOING TO VOTE. THEY SIMPLY DIDN’T PARTICIPATE IN THE POLL TO BEGIN WITH.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

CHARLES FRANKLIN, THANKS YOU VERY MUCH.

CHARLES FRANKLIN:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THERE ARE THREE WORDS ONE OF THE MOST OUTSPOKEN LEADERS OF THE “NEVER TRUMP” MOVEMENT, MILWAUKEE CONSERVATIVE TALK RADIO HOST CHARLIE SYKES, NEVER WANTED TO UTTER. THOSE THREE WORDS? PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP. SO TONIGHT HIS REACTION, HOW HE THINKS IT HAPPENED AND HOW HE THINKS IT WILL GO. CHARLIE SYKES JOINS US FROM MILWAUKEE. AND THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

CHARLIE SYKES:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AT WHAT POINT ON ELECTION NIGHT DID YOU REALIZE THAT HE WOULD IN FACT BE PRESIDENT?

CHARLIE SYKES:

GEE, I DON’T KNOW. ALL NIGHT LONG YOU KEPT THINKING THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. BUT AS SOON AS IT BECAME OBVIOUS THAT VIRGINIA WAS NOT BEING CALLED, I BEGAN TO THINK THAT MAYBE SOME OF THESE MODELS WERE NOT WORKING. BUT I THINK A LOT OF US, BECAUSE IT WAS SO INCONCEIVABLE THAT AMERICANS WOULD ELECT DONALD TRUMP, WE DIDN’T THINK IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE, SO WE TOLD OURSELVES AND OTHERS THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE. OBVIOUSLY IN RETROSPECT THERE WAS A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE MISSED AND GOT WRONG.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WHAT WAS AND WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE REALITY?

CHARLIE SYKES:

YOU KNOW, PART OF ME IS STILL TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS HAPPENED AND HOW WE COULD HAVE BEEN SO WRONG AND WHAT IT’S GOING TO MEAN FOR THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT. I’D EXPECTED WE’D BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION TODAY ABOUT HOW DO CONSERVATIVES REBUILD IN THE ERA OF HILLARY CLINTON. NOW OF COURSE THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW THEY PICK UP THE PIECES. I KNEW “NEVER TRUMP” CONSERVATIVES WOULD BE SPENDING SOME TIME IN THE WILDERNESS. I DIDN’T THINK THERE’D BE SO FEW OF US OR THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE SO LONELY. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE A “NEVER TRUMP” CONSERVATIVE AFTER THIS ELECTION, THAT’S A VERY, VERY SMALL AND DWINDLING TRIBE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, SO THOSE AROUND PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP LIKE PAUL RYAN WHOM YOU LIKE AND SUPPORT ARE WORKING WITH HIM. NOW THAT DONALD TRUMP IS PRESIDENT, DO YOU ALSO SUPPORT HIM?

CHARLIE SYKES:

NO. I WILL SUPPORT HIM WHEN HE’S RIGHT AND I WANT TO HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE WHEN HE’S WRONG. THERE ARE SOME GOOD SIGNS. IF IN FACT WE HAVE THE RATIONAL, RESPONSIBLE, CONTROLLED DONALD TRUMP THAT WE’VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE, THEN MAYBE HE WILL BE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH SOME THINGS. MAYBE HE WILL BE ABLE TO SIGN SOME OF THE LEGISLATION THAT PAUL RYAN IS GOING TO PUT TOGETHER. BUT WE’VE ALSO SEEN WHO DONALD TRUMP IS. AND THE PRESIDENCY DOES NOT CHANGE WHO YOU ARE. IT MAGNIFIES WHO YOU ARE. SO I THINK THERE IS THIS HOPE, WHICH MAY BE THE TRIUMPH OF HOPE OVER EXPERIENCE, THAT DONALD TRUMP WILL BE SOMEBODY DIFFERENT NOW THAT HE HAS ALL OF THIS POWER THAN HE HAS BEEN FOR HIS WHOLE LIFE. HOW LONG WILL HE BE ABLE TO WORK WITH PAUL RYAN? HOW LONG WILL HE STAY ON MESSAGE? I JUST DON’T KNOW. I THINK ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISIONS WILL BE WHO HE NAMES AS HIS CHIEF OF STAFF. IF HE NAMES REINCE PRIEBUS, I THINK THAT’S A VERY, VERY GOOD SIGN. IF HE GOES WITH SOMEBODY LIKE STEVE BANNON, I THINK THAT WE ARE IN FOR FOUR YEARS OF AN ABSOLUTE DUMPSTER FIRE. AND I THINK WE’RE GOING TO FIND THAT OUT VERY SOON.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I WANT TO GET BACK TO THAT GOING FORWARD PIECE, BUT FIRST GOING BACKWARD WHY DIDN’T THE “NEVER TRUMP” PERSUASION RESONATE TO THE EXTENT THAT IT STOPPED HIM ESPECIALLY HERE IN WISCONSIN, DO YOU THINK?

CHARLIE SYKES:

WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT AFTER THE CONVENTION THERE WAS THIS OVERWHELMING SENSE AMONG REPUBLICANS THAT THEY HAD TO HOLD THEIR NOSE, THAT IT WAS A BINARY CHOICE. AND THE SENTIMENT WAS SO NEGATIVE ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON. AND SHE WAS SUCH A FLAWED CANDIDATE. THERE BECAME TREMENDOUS PRESSURE THAT OK, EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT DONALD TRUMP MIGHT BE TRUE. YES, HE SAYS THIS ABOUT THE DISABLED, ABOUT WOMEN, ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS BUT HE'S NOT HILLARY CLINTON. AND SO I DO THINK IT WAS KIND OF A REFLECTION OF THE INCREASING TRIBALIZATION OF AMERICAN POLITICS WHERE HE’S OUR GUY AND NO MATTER HOW BAD HE IS, HE’S GOT TO BE BETTER THAN HER. I THINK THERE WAS TREMENDOUS PRESSURE. IN THE END, MOST REPUBLICANS DID COME HOME. AND NOW THEY DON’T HAVE THE “BUT HILLARY” ARGUMENT. WE’RE GOING TO FIND OUT WHAT WE’VE GOTTEN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, WHAT’S YOUR SENSE WHETHER ESTABLISHMENT REPUBLICANS CAN AND WILL WORK ON HIM — WORK WITH HIM ON PRIORITIES OF HIS, LIKE BUILDING A WALL OR INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING?

CHARLIE SYKES:

WELL, I DON’T KNOW. THE BUILDING THE WALL WAS ALWAYS ONE OF THOSE, YOU KNOW, BIZARRE PROMISES HE MADE. WHO’S GOING TO PAY FOR THAT? WHAT ARE THE LOGISTICS OF BUILDING THAT BALL? WE’RE NEVER GOING TO BUILD A WALL ACROSS THE BORDER. INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING, AND HE’S TALKED ABOUT SPENDING A TRILLION DOLLARS. THAT IS A DEMOCRATIC INITIATIVE. WHAT I THINK IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN CONSERVATIVES SAY HEY BY THE WAY, WE ARE ACTUALLY CONSERVATIVES. WE OUGHT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE DEBT AND THE DEFICIT. WE’RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT. WHAT HAPPENS? DOES DONALD TRUMP THEN BREAK WITH THEM? DOES HE UNLEASH THE FLYING MONKEYS OF BREITBART TO ATTACK THEM? DOES HE GO BACK TO WAR WITH PAUL RYAN? DOES HE MAKE A DEAL WITH THE DEMOCRATS? I DON’T KNOW. REPUBLICANS RIGHT NOW ARE CELEBRATING AND I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT THE REALITY IS THAT DONALD TRUMP REMAINS A DEEPLY FLAWED, DEEPLY UNPOPULAR FIGURE. AND RIGHT NOW HE IS THE FACE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE FACE OF CONSERVATISM AND THAT’S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM. IT’S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM BECAUSE HE HASN’T CHANGED AND THOSE ISSUES HAVE NOT GONE AWAY, EVEN WITH ALL THE KUMBAYA SINCE TUESDAY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

CHARLIE SYKES, WE LEAVE IS THERE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

CHARLIE SYKES:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHEN WISCONSIN VOTERS NARROWLY ELECTED DONALD TRUMP, THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM OF THIS STATE BEING A BLUE WALL FOR HILLARY CLINTON DISSOLVED. RURAL WHITE VOTERS OUTSIDE THE STATE’S URBAN CENTERS HELPED VAULT TRUMP TO THE PRESIDENCY. VOTERS LOOKING FOR THEIR PIECE OF THE PIE. UW-MADISON POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR KATHY CRAMER HAS TRAVELED ACROSS RURAL WISCONSIN IN HER RESEARCH ON POLARIZED POLITICS AND RECENTLY RELEASED HER BOOK “POLITICS OF RESENTMENT” ON HOW GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER WAS SUCCESSFULLY ATTUNED TO THAT. WE SAT DOWN WITH HER AT HER OFFICE FOLLOWING TUESDAYS’ ELECTION AND STARTED BY ASKING HER TO DESCRIBE POLITICS OF RESENTMENT.

KATHY CRAMER:

WELL, IT’S BASICALLY THIS SENTIMENT THAT I HEARD AND LEARNED ABOUT IN RURAL PLACES IN WISCONSIN. THIS SENSE OF NOT GETTING ONE’S FAIR SHARE AND ONE’S FAIR SHARE OF STUFF, TAXPAYER MONEY, BUT ALSO DECISION-MAKING POWER AND RESPECT. SO THE SENSE THAT PEOPLE IN THE CITIES DON’T RESPECT PEOPLE IN SMALL TOWN WISCONSIN AND KIND OF IGNORE THEIR CONCERNS. AND FOLKS IN THOSE SMALL TOWN COMMUNITIES DON’T GET THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES. THAT’S THE SENTIMENT. BUT ANOTHER PART OF IT IS THAT RESENTMENT, THE POLITICS OF IT COMES INTO PLAY WHEN POLITICIANS TAP INTO THAT, AND OFFER PEOPLE TARGET OF BLAME, REASONS WHY THEY'RE FEELING THAT KIND OF RESENTMENT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO IN THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP, THE WISCONSIN EXAMPLE OF THESE RESENTMENTS, IS THAT JUST WRIT LARGE?

KATHY CRAMER:

IT SURE IS. YOU CAN SEE IT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE ELECTION RETURNS. THE VERY FANCY MAPS BEING PUT OUT NOW RIGHT. YOU CAN SEE IT WITHIN PARTICULAR STATES AND YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE TOO. THE COASTAL AREAS MORE DEMOCRATIC LEANING, ESPECIALLY IN THE CITIES. AND THEN THE CENTER OF THE COUNTRY BEING MUCH MORE REPUBLICAN-LEANING, RIGHT? SO THAT’S JUST THE CORRELATIONS. TIME WILL TELL AS WE, YOU KNOW, THINK ABOUT, REFLECT ON THIS ELECTION WHETHER THOSE — THE SENTIMENT OF RESENTMENT WAS UNDERPINNING SUPPORT FOR TRUMP. BUT MY BEST GUESS AT THIS POINT IS THAT YEAH, WISCONSIN WAS THE NATION. THE NATION WAS WISCONSIN WRIT LARGE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHY DOES SUCH RESENTMENTS INVOLVE SCAPEGOATING OTHERS LIKE MINORITIES OR IMMIGRANTS OR PUBLIC SERVANTS?

KATHY CRAMER:

PARTLY I THINK IT’S BECAUSE WE ALL — CAUSAL STORIES ARE VERY USEFUL FOR US WHEN WE’RE IN A BEWILDERING TIME AND TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF IT. AND WHEN SOMEONE GIVES US A CONCRETE TARGET AS PART OF THAT CAUSAL STORY, IT’S VERY APPEALING. APPEALING NOT NECESSARILY IN A POSITIVE SENSE, BUT HELPS US MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD. POLITICALLY IT’S VERY ADVANTAGEOUS WHEN YOU CAN MOBILIZE OPPOSITION TO A CONCRETE SOCIAL GROUP AND FOMENT ANGER IN THE PROCESS, IT CAN BE A VERY MOTIVATING THING, GETTING PEOPLE TO THE POLLS OR STIRRING UP PARTICIPATION IN RALLIES AND DONATING MONEY. SO POLITICALLY IT’S OFTEN VERY USEFUL TO SCAPEGOAT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT KIND OF A GRADE WOULD YOU GIVE DONALD TRUMP ON THE USE OF THAT?

KATHY CRAMER:

A+.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IF THERE’S SO MUCH OF THIS POLARIZING RESENTMENT OUT THERE, WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT?

KATHY CRAMER:

OH, THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION. I THINK WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ON MULTIPLE LEVELS. I THINK ORDINARY FOLKS, THIS ISN’T WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR THIS WEEK, BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO TRY TO BE AS COMPASSIONATE AND KIND TO ONE ANOTHER AS POSSIBLE. AND TO INTERRUPT SCAPEGOATING WHEN WE CAN. BUT I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO DEMAND WAY MORE OF OUR LEADERS TO NOT USE THAT AS JUSTIFICATION FOR POLICIES. DEMAND THAT– YOU KNOW, IF YOU’RE GOING TO SELL A POLICY TO ME, TELL ME WHY IT’S ACTUALLY GOING TO IMPROVE MY LIFE. DON’T SELL IT TO ME BY TELLING ME THAT THIS WILL PREVENT UNDESERVING PEOPLE FROM GETTING THINGS THAT SHOULD BE COMING TO ME. I MEAN, IT’S A — JUST PERSONALLY AS A CITIZEN, I MUCH PREFER PEOPLE TELL ME ABOUT THE MERITS OF A POLICY THAN TELL ME ABOUT WHY A SOCIAL GROUP IS UNDESERVING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU WERE QUOTED IN THE WASHINGTON POST AS SAYING THAT THE BEST STRATEGY FOR DONALD TRUMP IF HE WERE TO LOSE WOULD BE TO SAY WE NEED TO COME TOGETHER AS A COUNTRY AND WE NEED TO BE NICE TO EACH OTHER. NOW, HE CAME CLOSE TO SAYING THAT AFTER HE WON IN A SPEECH THAT HE MADE. BUT HOW POSSIBLE IS THAT NOW, BECAUSE THERE’S A WHOLE NEW GROUP OF ANGRY PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE?

KATHY CRAMER:

WELL, ISN’T THAT THE SAD THING? LIKE THE RESENTMENT JUST BREEDS MORE RESENTMENT. I THINK DEMOCRACY REQUIRES BOTH THE WINNERS AND THE LOSERS TO BE ON THEIR BEST BEHAVIOR AFTERWARDS, RIGHT? SO THE WINNERS, IT’S THEIR DUTY NOW TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE IN PAIN AND TO NOT GLOAT AND TO TRY TO REPAIR DIVIDES THAT EXIST. AND FOR THE LOSERS, IT’S THEIR DUTY TO REMEMBER THAT TIMES CHANGE AND FIGHTING FOR A CAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IS WORTHWHILE. AND EVERYBODY’S PRETTY EXHAUSTED THIS WEEK. NOBODY FEELS LIKE RISING TO THE OCCASION OF A DUTY RIGHT NOW. BUT I THINK IT’S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT BOTH SIDES STEP IT UP.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. KATHY CRAMER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

KATHY CRAMER:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

PROFESSOR KATHY CRAMER IS IN NORTHERN WISCONSIN THIS WEEKEND INTERVIEWING TRUMP VOTERS ABOUT THEIR REACTION TO HIS ELECTION. SHE REPORTS FROM THE FIELD THAT THEY ARE HAPPY BECAUSE HE REPRESENTS CHANGE, EVEN THOUGH THEY’RE NOT SURE HIS PRESIDENCY WILL NECESSARILY IMPROVE THEIR LIVES. WE EXPECT TO CHECK BACK IN WITH CRAMER AS SHE CONTINUES THIS NEW PHASE OF RESEARCH. REPUBLICANS IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE BEEFED UP THEIR MAJORITY IN THIS ELECTION. IN THE ASSEMBLY, IT’S 64 TO 35. SPEAKER ROBIN VOS.

ROBIN VOS:

WE HAVE NEW MEMBERS WHO ARE JOINING US. I AM ECSTATIC THAT WE NOW HAVE THE LARGEST MAJORITY SINCE 1956.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IN THE STATE SENATE, REPUBLICANS NOW HAVE A 20 TO 12 EDGE OVER DEMOCRATS AND COULD PICK UP ONE MORE WITH THE ELECTIONS COMMISSION PREPARING FOR A RECOUNT IN THE TIGHT ELECTION VICTORY OF MINORITY LEADER JENNIFER SHILLING. STRENGTHENED REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES AT THE STATE HOUSE IN WISCONSIN LEAVE MINORITY DEMOCRATS EVERMORE DIMINISHED. THE DEMOCRAT PARTY OF WISCONSIN TOOK A LASHING IN TUESDAY’S ELECTION, FROM THE TOP OF THE TICKET ON DOWN. BUT WHY? FOR PERSPECTIVE ON THAT, WE TURN TO VICE-CHAIR OF THE PARTY AND STATE DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE FROM MILWAUKEE, DAVID BOWEN. REPRESENTATIVE, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

DAVID BOWEN:

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME. I’M HONORED TO BE HERE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, I DON’T HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTERS COUNTED ON MILWAUKEE, AND IN MILWAUKEE TURNOUT WAS 60,000 FEWER VOTES THAN IN 2012. WHAT HAPPENED?

DAVID BOWEN:

WELL, I THINK YOU SAW A NUMBER OF FACTORS. YOU SAW SO MUCH SUPPORT FOR THE TOP OF THE TICKET ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE OF FOLKS THAT WERE COMING OUT TO VOTE, SOME WHO HAVEN’T VOTED IN A WHILE. BUT YOU ALSO SAW, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO, EVEN IF THEY WERE ENGAGED TO VOTE IN THE ELECTION, THEY WERE UP AGAINST FACTORS LIKE VOTER I.D. THEY WERE UP AGAINST A LOT OF FACTORS IN, YOU KNOW, SEEING THIS — THE ABILITY TO PAINT OUR CANDIDATE AS AN ESTABLISHMENT-LIKE CANDIDATE, AS A CANDIDATE OF THE STATUS QUO THAT WE COULD NOT GET OUT OF. AND IT IS A YEAR THAT PEOPLE WERE FOCUSED ON TRYING TO HAVE CHANGE. IT WAS REALLY TOUGH FOR US TO GET OUT OF THAT WITH OUR CANDIDATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT EFFECT DO YOU THINK THE FACT THAT HILLARY CLINTON DID NOT VISIT HERE DURING THE GENERAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN HAD ON THAT TURNOUT IN MILWAUKEE?

DAVID BOWEN:

WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT’S POSSIBLE THAT DEFINITELY COULD HAVE HAD SOME EFFECT. WE SAW OUR REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES ACROSS THE AISLE FOCUS HEAVILY ON WISCONSIN, FOCUS HEAVILY ON RUST BELT CITIES, RUST BELT LOCATIONS. AND, YOU KNOW, WE MADE DECISIONS ON OUR SIDE WITH OUR — THOSE THAT WERE LEADING THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS OF A DIFFERENT STRATEGY. AND WE CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT THEIR STRATEGY WAS TO FOCUS ELSEWHERE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW, GOING INTO THIS, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT POLLING IN THIS ELECTION. GOING INTO THIS IN WISCONSIN, HILLARY CLINTON HAD A SIX-POINT LEAD. DO YOU THINK THAT LED TO COMPLACENCY ON THE PART OF VOTERS?

DAVID BOWEN:

IT’S DEFINITELY POSSIBLE THAT IT CREATED COMPLACENCY EVEN AMONG THE CAMPAIGN TO THINK THAT WE JUST HAD IT IN THE BAG. BUT I KNOW A NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT HAD IT IN THEIR MIND. IT WAS HARD FOR THEM TO REALLY UNDERSTAND OR BELIEVE THAT DONALD TRUMP COULD EARN THE VOTES OF THE MAJORITY OF THIS COUNTRY, THAT HE HAD A REAL SHOT AT WINNING. AND I DON’T THINK IT’S SOMETHING TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY. I FOR ONE, I BELIEVE THAT HE HAD A CHANCE. BUT THERE WERE A LOT OF FOLKS THAT THOUGHT THAT THERE WAS JUST NO WAY, AND I THINK IT AFFECTED THEIR DECISION-MAKING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ARE DEMOCRATS NOT SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE OF THE CURRENT DAY VOTERS IN WISCONSIN, GIVEN THE ROUT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM?

DAVID BOWEN:

WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT? I THINK THERE ARE SOME CHALLENGES. AND I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, PEOPLE OF WISCONSIN, THEY ARE TIRED OF BEING SCREWED OVER BY SOME FORCES THAT HAVE AFFECTED THEIR LIVELIHOODS AND THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS AND THEIR COMMUNITIES AND THEIR ECONOMIES. I THINK ALSO AS DEMOCRATS WE KNOW THAT WE ARE CHAMPIONING THE ISSUES THAT MATTER TO THEM, BUT THERE HAS TO BE A CONNECTION, RIGHT, TO GET THE VOTERS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE SAME ISSUES THAT WE’RE CHAMPIONING MEANS THAT WE DESERVE THEIR SUPPORT, THAT WE NEED TO RUN ON PROGRESSIVE AGENDAS OF CHANGE. AND I DON’T KNOW IF THAT WAS REFLECTED IN THIS ELECTION CYCLE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IN FACT, YOU WERE A BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER.

DAVID BOWEN:

I WAS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU FEEL AS THOUGH HE COULD HAVE WON THE PRESIDENCY?

DAVID BOWEN:

WELL, I THINK BERNIE SANDERS, HE HIGHLIGHTED A PROGRESSIVE AGENDA AND MESSAGE THAT REALLY RESONATED WITH FOLKS, ESPECIALLY OF WORKING CLASS, WHO ARE REALLY SUFFERING UNDER THE OBSTRUCTIONISM. I THINK THAT ACTUALLY WENT UNDER THE RADAR. WE DID NOT REALLY FOCUS ON THE FACT THAT IT IS THE SAME FOLKS ON THE OTHER SIDE, THOSE SAME REPUBLICANS, THAT CONTINUE TO OBSTRUCT AND CREATE A PROCESS WHERE WE AREN’T GETTING THINGS DONE. AND WE JUST HAD AN ELECTION WHERE THEY PAINTED US AS STATUS QUO. AND THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN NO WAY THAT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THAT CORNER. WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIGHTING TO MAKE SURE THAT VOTERS UNDERSTOOD THAT WHEN IT CAME TO BIG MONEY IN POLITICS, THAT’S SCREWING UP, RIGHT, THE WHOLE PROCESS OF HAVING REPRESENTATIVES AND ELECTEDS THAT ACTUALLY WORK FOR THE INTERESTS OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS AND NOT BIG MONEY INTERESTS. WHEN IT COMES TO ACTUALLY RECOGNIZING THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DON’T RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE, IF YOU DON’T ADD IN PAID SICK LEAVE, THAT PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE NOT TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO REACH THE ECONOMIC LADDER FURTHER. IT’S BEEN OUT OF REACH. AND PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY’RE BEING SCREWED OVER. AND I THINK WE REALLY SHOULD HAVE HONED IN, LIKE BERNIE SANDERS DID, ON THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WERE BEING SCREWED OVER.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE, REPRESENTATIVE DAVID BOWEN.

DAVID BOWEN:

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

TWO YEARS AGO WE BROUGHT YOU THE STORY OF THREE COUNTIES THAT HAVE VOTED FOR THE OVERALL WINNER IN EVER PRESIDENTIAL , GUBERNATORIAL AND U.S. SENATE RACE DATING BACK TO 1990. WELL, PART OF THAT STREAK ENDED ON TUESDAY. IN THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE, ALL THREE OF RICHLAND, LINCOLN AND FOREST COUNTIES VOTED FOR TRUMP. BUT IN THE RACE FOR U.S. SENATE, LINCOLN AND FOREST WENT FOR JOHNSON. BUT RICHLAND WENT FOR FEINGOLD BY 70 VOTES. YOU CAN WATCH THE ORIGINAL STORY ON wpt.org TO LEARN WHY THESE COUNTIES HAVE VOTED THE SAME FOR SO LONG. AND THAT IS ALL FOR TONIGHT’S PROGRAM. I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

ANNOUNCER:

FUNDING FOR “HERE AND NOW” IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION. FOR MORE INFORMATION ON “HERE AND NOW’S” 2016 ELECTION COVERAGE, GO TO wisconsinvote.org.