ANNOUNCER:

THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS PART OF OUR “HERE AND NOW” 2016 WISCONSIN VOTE ELECTION COVERAGE. FUNDING FOR “HERE AND NOW” IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

GOOD EVENING. I’M ZAC SCHULTZ, FILLING IN FOR FREDERICA FREYBERG. TONIGHT, WE’LL TALK WITH A RESEARCHER WHO THINKS THE STATE IS LOOKING IN THE WRONG PLACE IN THE EFFORT TO CLOSE THE SKILLS GAP. PLUS CITIES FROM AROUND THE GREAT LAKES ARE CHALLENGING THE DEAL TO ALLOW WAUKESHA TO RECEIVE WATER FROM LAKE MICHIGAN. WE’LL PREVIEW A WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION SPECIAL THAT LOOKS AT WHAT CLIMATE CHANGE COULD MEAN FOR WATER QUALITY IN THE FUTURE. BUT FIRST, WE’VE HEARD A LOT ABOUT THE SO-CALLED SKILLS GAP IN RECENT YEARS. IT’S THE CONCEPT THAT EMPLOYERS ARE LOOKING TO HIRE, BUT CAN’T FIND ENOUGH QUALIFIED WORKERS. THIS IS GOVERNOR WALKER IN HIS 2013 BUDGET ADDRESS.

SCOTT WALKER:

WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE STATE, WHICH IS ABLE TO FIX THE JOB SKILLS GAP IS THE STATE THAT WILL LEAD THE COUNTRY IN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. WE WANT WISCONSIN TO BE THAT LEADER.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

WISCONSIN HAS INVESTED MILLIONS IN JOB TRAINING PROGRAMS DESIGNED TO GET WORKERS INTO SKILLED TRADES AND A CAREER WITHOUT NEEDING A FOUR-YEAR DEGREE. BUT DO WE NEED TO RETHINK THE SKILLS GAP? THAT’S THE QUESTION RAISED BY UW ASSISTANT PROFESSOR MATTHEW HORA WHO JOINS US NOW. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

MATTHEW HORA:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

SO IS THE SKILLS GAP REAL? ARE THERE COMPANIES DESPERATE FOR WORKERS THAT JUST CAN’T FIND THEM RIGHT NOW?

MATTHEW HORA:

SO ONE OF THE ISSUES WITH THE SKILLS GAP — AND THE IDEA IS NOT JUST THAT EMPLOYERS CAN’T FIND QUALIFIED WORKERS. IT’S THE IDEA THAT SLUGGISH JOB GROWTH AND ECONOMIC GROWTH IS SOLELY DUE TO A FAILED HIGHER EDUCATION SYSTEM. THAT IDEA ITSELF HAS HUGE GAPS. WHAT IT’S MISSING IS ACCOUNTING FOR THE OTHER VARIABLES THAT EXPLAIN ECONOMIC STAGNATION, HOW THE HIGHER EDUCATION SYSTEM FUNCTIONS AND HOW STUDENTS FIND CAREERS. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE FOUND IN OUR RESEARCH IS SOME OF THE THINGS THAT IT’S MISSING ARE ACCOUNTING FOR HOW EMPLOYERS HIRE AND TRAIN THEIR WORKERS OR NOT, ACCOUNTING FOR THE TYPES OF SKILLS THAT ARE ACTUALLY IN DEMAND IN THE LABOR MARKET. NOT JUST TECHNICAL COMPETENCY BUT A WHOLE HOST OF OTHER SOCIAL, ANALYTICAL AND INTELLECTUAL SKILLS. BUT PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANTLY, IT’S MISSING ANY ACCOUNTING OF CLASSROOM TEACHING AND THE WAY THE CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTION, WHETHER IT’S IN A TWO-YEAR, A FOUR-YEAR OR A MOOC, IS ACTUALLY DESIGNED AND DELIVERED TO STUDENTS IN WAYS THAT CULTIVATE THEIR COMPETENCIES. AND SO I WISH I COULD ANSWER YES OR NO TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE’S A SKILLS GAP, BUT WHAT WE FOUND IN OUR RESEARCH AND LABOR MARKET ECONOMISTS HAVE ALSO FOUND, IS THE BASIC ASSUMPTIONS UNDERLYING THE STATEMENT OF A SKILLS GAP ARE SO FLAWED THAT WE NEED TO REJECT AND RETIRE THE TERM AND THINK IN A FAR MORE NUANCED FASHION ABOUT ISSUES FACING HIGHER EDUCATION AND THE LABOR MARKET.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

YOU INTERVIEWED PEOPLE IN THE WORKPLACE, MANUFACTURERS AND BIOTECH PEOPLE AND ALSO EDUCATORS. WHAT’S INTERESTING ABOUT SOME OF THE RESULTS IS THAT THE THINGS THEY’RE LOOKING FOR IN EMPLOYEES GO BEYOND JUST TECHNICAL ABILITIES. THEY WANT COMMUNICATION SKILLS, TEAM WORK, ALL THE INTANGIBLES.

MATTHEW HORA:

THAT’S RIGHT. SO WHEN YOU READ ABOUT THE SKILLS GAP AND HEAR IT TALKED ABOUT BY POLICY MAKERS, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS IT’S RARELY DEFINED. WHAT PRECISELY THE SKILLS ARE THAT ARE IN DEMAND. OFTEN IT’S LEFT UNSAID. SOMETIMES IT’S ASSUMED THAT THEY’RE TECHNICAL SKILLS ONLY. BUT WHAT WE HEARD FROM BUSINESS OWNERS AND HR PROFESSIONALS WAS THAT, YOU’RE RIGHT. THEY WANT THINGS LIKE ORAL AND WRITTEN COMMUNICATION, CRITICAL THINKING, TEAM WORK, ESPECIALLY THE ABILITY TO WORK ACROSS DIFFERENT CULTURAL GROUPS AS WISCONSIN AND THE UNITED STATES BECOMES MORE ETHNICALLY DIVERSE. PEOPLE ARE SEEING MORE AND MORE DIVERSITY WITHIN THEIR WORKPLACE BUT AN INABILITY OF PEOPLE TO CROSS SOME OF THOSE BOUNDARIES. THE THING THAT WE HEARD THAT WAS MOST SURPRISING WAS LIFE-LONG LEARNING. EMPLOYERS WANTING PEOPLE THAT HAD THE DESIRE AND THE ABILITY TO LEARN NEW THINGS, NEW WORKPLACE PROCEDURES, NEW TASKS, ANYTHING. THEY’RE FINDING THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE COMING OUT OF SCHOOLS AND TRAINING PROGRAMS THINKING THEY’RE GOING TO DO ONE THING FOR 40 YEARS AND THAT’S SIMPLY NOT THE CASE ANYMORE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

ONE OF THE THINGS I HAVE HEARD A LOT, AS A REPORTER IN THE SKILLS GAP CONVERSATION IS, WELDERS, ELECTRICIANS, PIPE FITTERS, VERY DELIBERATE, SKILLED TRADES AND THAT’S WHERE A LOT OF THE FUNDING IS GOING TOWARDS. BUT YOUR STUDY SHOWS THAT THAT’S NOT WHERE THE JOB GROWTH IS EXPECTED TO COME FROM IN THE FUTURE.

MATTHEW HORA:

WELL, SO, WHEN WE WENT OUT AND TALKED TO BOTH EMPLOYERS AND EDUCATORS, WE VISITED A LOT OF TECHNICAL COLLEGES AND LIKE YOU MENTIONED ADVANCE MANUFACTURING AND BIOTECH COMPANIES. AND THERE’S CERTAINLY A DEMAND FOR AND JOBS FOR PEOPLE THAT DON’T HAVE A FOUR-YEAR DEGREE BUT MAYBE A TWO-YEAR ASSOCIATES OR A ONE -YEAR TECHNICAL DIPLOMA. ONE OF THE ISSUES, THOUGH, IS THERE’S A PRETTY DIVERSIFIED LABOR MARKET OUT THERE. RIGHT NOW ABOUT 23% OF THE WISCONSIN LABOR MARKET IS FOR HIGH-SKILL AND HIGH-WAGE JOBS. AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE AND OTHER RESEARCHERS FEEL IS THAT THERE ALSO NEEDS TO BE MORE ATTENTION ON SOME OF THOSE UPPER SKILL/UPPER WAGE JOBS SO WE CAN START TO LIFT PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY AND INCREASE THE MIDDLE CLASS. BUT THAT’S NOT TO SAY THAT ATTENTION SHOULDN’T BE PAID TOWARD A SKILLED TRADE. IT’S JUST THERE’S BEEN AN OVER-EMPHASIS ON SOME OF THOSE AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THIS ISN’T JUST A REPUBLICAN THING. DEMOCRATS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL HAVE HAD SOME OF THE SAME ERRORS IN YOUR VIEW IN TERMS OF WHERE TO PLACE THE EMPHASIS ON SKILLS GAP.

MATTHEW HORA:

CORRECT. THIS IS A BIPARTISAN ADOPTION OF AN OVERLY-SIMPLISTIC NOTION THAT THE PROBLEMS WE’RE SEEING IN THE LABOR MARKET AND ECONOMY ARE SOLELY DUE TO HIGHER EDUCATION PROGRAMMING. AND WHAT WE FEEL BOTH PARTIES AND POLICYMAKERS AND RESEARCHERS ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM ARE MISSING IS THE CENTRALITY OF TEACHING AND LEARNING. HOW PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY TEACHING THESE SKILLS IN THE CLASSROOM IS, BASED ON OUR RESEARCH, KIND OF THE CENTRAL LEVERAGE POINT THAT WE NEED TO PUT OUR ATTENTION TO IF WE WANT PEOPLE TO ADOPT WHAT THE NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL CALLS 21ST CENTURY SKILLS. THAT’S THE WHOLE RANGE OF COMPETENCIES I MENTIONED BEFORE. THE IDEA IS THE WORKPLACE IS CHANGING SO RAPIDLY THAT IF WE DON’T GIVE STUDENTS THESE WIDE RANGE OF SKILL SETS, WE’RE DOING THEM A DISSERVICE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

SO WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN? IS IT JUST MORE MONEY INTO THE CLASSROOMS, INTO THE SCHOOLS? GIVE US A BRIEF RUNDOWN OF WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO CHANGE THIS.

MATTHEW HORA:

SO WHAT’S INTERESTING ABOUT THIS DEBATE IS MY ANSWER WILL BE SOMETHING THAT LEARNING SCIENTISTS AND EDUCATIONAL RESEARCHERS HAVE BEEN ARGUING FOR SINCE THE LATE 1970s. THAT WE NEED TO TRANSFORM CLASSROOM TEACHING, WHETHER IT’S IN KINDERGARTEN, TECHNICAL COLLEGE OR RESEARCH UNIVERSITY, FROM A LECTURE-CENTRIC TRANSMISSION OF INFORMATION TO PASSIVE STUDENTS MODEL, WHICH IS STILL DOMINANT, TO A MORE ACTIVELY ENGAGED, HANDS-ON EXPERIENTIAL EDUCATION. AND THAT’S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. THE WAY IT HAPPENS, THOUGH, IS YOU CAN’T WAVE A MAGIC WAND AND HAVE THAT OCCUR BECAUSE BEHAVIOR CHANGE IS COMPLICATED. WE NEED MORE INVESTMENT IN TEACHING AND LEARNING CENTERS IN THE WISCONSIN TECHNICAL COLLEGE SYSTEM AND THE UW SYSTEM. WE NEED PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE REINING BACK OF THE RHETORIC THAT IS DISPARAGING AND DIMINISHING THE TEACHING PROFESSION BOTH IN WISCONSIN BUT ALSO ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHERE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT PROFESSORS AND TEACHERS BEING OVERPAID AND UNDERWORKED, WHERE THEY CAN BE REPLACED WITH MOOCS OR A SET OF KENNETH BURNS VIDEOTAPES. WHERE WHAT WE NEED — AND THIS IS TAKING THE LANGUAGE FROM THE BUSINESS OWNERS WE SPOKE TO — IS A CAREFUL APPROACH TO CULTIVATING STUDENTS HABITATS OF MIND AND WAYS OF THINKING SO THEY CAN BECOME HIGHLY SKILLED AND WELL-ROUNDED WELDERS OR HIGHLY SKILLED AND WELL-ROUNDED ACCOUNTANTS. IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT GIVING THEM A SHORT BOOT CAMP AND THE TECHNICAL SKILLS OF THAT PROFESSION BUT THEY NEED ALL THE SKILL SETS.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

ALL RIGHT. MATTHEW HORA, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME TODAY. WE APPRECIATE IT.

MATTHEW HORA:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

WE INVITED THE WISCONSIN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION TO BRING SOMEONE ON THE SHOW TO TALK ABOUT THIS REPORT AND THEIR VIEW OF THE SKILLS GAP. THEY DECLINED. SWITCHING FROM TRAINING WORKERS TO PIPING WATER, A GROUP OF CITIES LOCATED AROUND THE GREAT LAKES IS CHALLENGING THE DECISION TO ALLOW THE CITY OF WAUKESHA TO DIVERT WATER FROM LAKE MICHIGAN FOR ITS OWN USE. THE GREAT LAKES AND ST. LAWRENCE CITIES INITIATIVE HAS REQUESTED A HEARING TO REVERSE THAT DECISION.

MAN:

MR. CHAIRMAN, ILLINOIS VOTES TO APPROVE.

CHAIRMAN:

INDIANA?

MAN:

INDIANA VOTES TO APPROVE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

IN JUNE, THE EIGHT GOVERNORS OF THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT UNANIMOUSLY APPROVED THE PLAN TO ALLOW WATER FROM LAKE MICHIGAN TO BE PIPED TO THE CITY OF WAUKESHA. WAUKESHA’S CURRENT WATER IS CONTAMINATED WITH RADIUM BECAUSE THE CITY’S WELLS HAVE BEEN DRAWN DOWN DUE TO HEAVY USE BROUGHT ON BY DEVELOPMENT. IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE VOTE, WAUKESHA WILL BE ABLE TO DIVERT NO MORE THAN 8.2 MILLION GALLONS A DAY OF LAKE MICHIGAN WATER AND MUST RETURN 100% OF IT BACK TO THE LAKE. IT’LL BE TREATED AND RETURNED VIA THE ROOT RIVER, WHICH EMPTIES INTO LAKE MICHIGAN IN RACINE. RACINE’S MAYOR HAS LONG OPPOSED THE PLAN AND HAS SIGNED ON TO THIS CHALLENGE. JOHN DICKERT JOINS US NOW FROM RACINE. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

JOHN DICKERT:

NOT A PROBLEM. HAPPY TO BE HERE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

SO YOU’RE PART OF THE GREAT LAKES AND ST. LAWRENCE CITIES INITIATIVE. DOES THAT INITIATIVE HAVE ANY AUTHORITY UNDER THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT OR IS IT COMPLETELY SEPARATE?

JOHN DICKERT:

NO. THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT IS MADE UP OF THE EIGHT GOVERNORS THAT’S REPRESENT THE GREAT LAKES. NOW THE TWO PROVIDENCES OF ONTARIO AND QUEBEC ALSO HAVE A SAY, BUT IT’S NOT A VOTE PER SE. SO THE GREAT LAKES ST. LAWRENCE CITIES INITIATIVE IS AN ORGANIZATION STARTED BY MAYOR DALEY AND THE MAYOR OF TORONTO TEN YEARS AGO TO REPRESENT THE GREAT LAKES. SO IT’S MAYORS ALONG THE GREAT LAKES IN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA. BUT WE DON’T HAVE ANY DIRECT SAY ON THE COMPACT.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

SO HOW DOES THIS CHALLENGE WORK? WHO ARE YOU APPEALING TO AT THIS POINT?

JOHN DICKERT:

WELL, WE’RE LOOKING TO APPEAL TO THE COMPACT ITSELF AND HOPEFULLY FURTHER ON, IF WE HAVE TO, THE COURTS, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO LOOK AT FUTURE GENERATIONS. THIS ISN’T ABOUT WAUKESHA. THIS IS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR GREAT LAKES. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOOK OVER AT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE AREAS OF RUSSIA AND THE ARAL SEA AND HOW THAT HAS LITERALLY DISAPPEARED OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPREHENSIVE IMPACT OF NOT JUST THIS STRAW, BUT THE 100 PLUS COMMUNITIES THAT ARE LOOKING AT PUTTING THEIR STRAW INTO THE GREAT LAKES. ALL OF THOSE WILL END UP IN COURT. SO WE’LL LOSE CONTROL OUT OF ALL OF THOSE. BUT WHAT WE LOOK AT IS THIS IS NOT ANY SINGULAR ISSUE. WE THINK, PERSONALLY I THINK, THAT WAUKESHA HAS SOME OTHER OPPORTUNITIES THAT THEY CAN UTILIZE THAT ARE ACTUALLY SIGNIFICANTLY CHEAPER FOR THEIR TAXPAYERS AND STILL PROVIDE CLEAN, FRESH WATER. BUT FOR US, WE LOOK AT THIS AS A COMPREHENSIVE APPROACH FOR THE HISTORY OF OUR GREAT LAKES, WHICH IS A LIMITED RESOURCE, NUMBER ONE, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, IF YOU START THIS TRACK AND YOU CRACK THE EGG OF THE COMPACT, SOMEBODY LIKE MYSELF WHO SITS ON THREE WATER BOARDS – A STATE, A NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL BOARD THAT DEALS WITH WATER ISSUES, I’M TELLING YOU THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE A DISASTER FOR OUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT WAS THAT GETTING EIGHT STATES, EIGHT GOVERNORS FROM DIFFERENT PARTIES TO UNANIMOUSLY APPROVE ANYTHING WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DIFFICULT. SO IF THEY ACTUALLY DID APPROVE THIS, DOESN’T THAT MEAN IT MET THE STANDARD? AND WHY TRY AND BREAK THE DECISION ON THE VERY FIRST TRY?

JOHN DICKERT:

WELL, THE FIRST THING IS THAT ONCE YOU CRACK THE EGG, THE EGG’S CRACKED. THERE’S NO PUTTING IT BACK TOGETHER. THE SECOND THING IS THAT THE ONE COMPONENT THAT WAS COMPLETELY LEFT OUT OF THE CONVERSATION WAS THE RETURN FLOW, WHICH IS US. WE’RE GETTING THE WASTE OF THE WAUKESHA PLANT, AND NO ONE DISCUSSED THAT. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, THIS WAS REALLY NOT GIVEN THE LIGHT OF DAY. THIS WAS NOT BROUGHT OUT TO PUBLIC HEARINGS IN ALL EIGHT STATES LIKE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO AND REALLY SHONE THE LIGHT ON THIS ENTIRE ISSUE. THIS WAS RAMRODDED THROUGH. IT WAS DONE IN ONE MEETING. THERE WERE A LOT OF STATES THAT WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. BUT WE DON’T THINK THIS ISSUE HAS REALLY SEEN THE LIGHT OF DAY. THE OTHER THING IS THAT, ONCE AGAIN, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW THIS IS GOING TO IMPACT ALL OF THE GREAT LAKES FOR THE FUTURE. THIS IS NOT ABOUT WAUKESHA. IT’S ABOUT CRACKING THE EGG OF THE COMPACT. NOW, I WILL STATE THIS. THE GOVERNORS HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW ALL OF THEIR STATES ARE GOING TO BE IMPACTED AND THEIR WATER NEEDS GOING FORWARD AND I UNDERSTAND THAT COMPLETELY. LISTEN, LIKE I SAID, I SIT ON A NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL WATER BOARD, AND IF THERE’S ONE ISSUE THAT IS OBVIOUS FOR THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY AND THIS WORLD, WATER AND DRINKING WATER, CLEAN SAFE DRINKING WATER, IS GOING TO BE AN ISSUE FOR THE NEXT DECADES AND FOR OUR CHILDREN’S FUTURE. SO EVERYONE IS CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

LET ME JUST ASK, YOU TALKED ABOUT CRACKING THE EGG. AND WE’VE GOT A LITTLE UNDER A MINUTE LEFT, BUT DOES THAT MEAN YOU DON’T WANT THE EGG CRACKED AT ALL? IS THERE NO TEST CASE THAT YOU COULD IMAGINE THAT WOULD WARRANT BRINGING IN GREAT LAKES WATER TO SOMEPLACE OUTSIDE THE WATERSHED?

JOHN DICKERT:

WELL, I THINK THE KEY BEHIND THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT WAS TO PROTECT THE COASTAL CITIES AND THE CITIES THAT ARE ON THE GREAT LAKES. WHAT I’M SAYING ABOUT CRACKING THE EGG IS ONCE YOU DO THAT — AND WE DON’T THINK IT WAS DONE PROPERLY FOR WAUKESHA BECAUSE WE DON’T THINK THAT THEY MEET THE TEST — YOU REALLY OPEN IT UP TO EVERYBODY AND ANYBODY. THIS ISN’T GOING TO BE DECIDED BY GOVERNORS IN THE FUTURE. IT SIMPLY BE DECIDED BY COURTS.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

JOHN DICKERT:

THANK YOU. GREAT TALKING TO YOU.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

JOINING US NOW WITH A RESPONSE IS THE MAYOR OF WAUKESHA, SHAWN REILLY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

SHAWN REILLY:

HAPPY TO BE HERE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

HOW LIKELY IS THIS CHALLENGE FROM THE CITIES INITIATIVE TO SUCCEED?

SHAWN REILLY:

I REALLY DON’T BELIEVE THAT IT WILL SUCCEED. GOVERNORS SPENT — AND THEIR REPRESENTATIVES SPENT A LOT OF TIME STUDYING THIS. A LOT OF TIME WORKING ON ALL THE FACTS, AND COUNTLESS HOURS IN MEETINGS TO COME TO THIS DECISION. I BELIEVE THAT THEY MADE THE CORRECT DECISION. I DON’T BELIEVE THAT THEY WILL CHANGE THEIR MIND. REALLY THE APPEAL IS TO ASK THEM TO CHANGE THEIR MIND ON SOMETHING THEY’VE WORKED VERY HARD ON. IN ADDITION, ALL THE ARGUMENTS THAT ARE MADE BY THE CITIES INITIATIVE ARE ARGUMENTS THAT THEY’VE ALREADY MADE AND WERE CONSIDERED BY THE GOVERNORS WHEN THEY MADE THEIR DECISION.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

DO YOU EXPECT THIS WILL END UP IN FEDERAL COURT AT SOME POINT?

SHAWN REILLY:

I HOPE NOT. I GUESS I CAN’T — I DON’T KNOW WHETHER IT WILL OR IT WON’T. BUT YOU HAVE EIGHT GOVERNORS THAT WROTE THE COMPACT, INTERPRET THE COMPACT AND MADE AN UNANIMOUS DECISION, ALONG WITH THE TWO CANADIAN PROVINCES ALSO AGREEING THROUGH THE FINDINGS OF FACT WITH THE DECISION. SO EVEN IF IT GOES TO FEDERAL COURT, I DON’T SEE THAT THAT WOULD BE OVERTURNED.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

MAYOR JOHN DICKERT FROM RACINE SAYS HIS BIGGEST CONCERN IS THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT, THIS IDEA THAT WAUKESHA’S APPROVAL WILL LEAD TO OTHER CITIES AROUND THE GREAT LAKES ASKING FOR THE SAME THING AND OPENING THE FLOODGATES, SO TO SPEAK. DO YOU THINK THAT’S A LEGITIMATE CONCERN?

SHAWN REILLY:

NO, I DON’T. THERE’S NO OTHER COMMUNITY THAT’S EVEN CONSIDERING IT AT THIS POINT. THERE WAS A STUDY DONE ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO THAT SAID MAYBE FOUR COMMUNITIES SIMILAR TO WAUKESHA, ACTUALLY INCLUDING WAUKESHA, MAY APPLY FOR GREAT LAKES WATER BETWEEN THE TIME THE STUDY WAS DONE AND 2050. ANYONE WHO LOOKS INTO THIS WILL SEE ALL THE AMOUNT OF TIME AND WORK THAT WAS DONE BY THE CITY OF WAUKESHA TO GET TO THIS POINT FOR APPROVAL. THE COMPACT COUNCIL WAS EXTREMELY DILIGENT IN THEIR STUDY AND REALLY WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT IS THEY FOUND SOME VERY UNIQUE CIRCUMSTANCES FOR THE CITY OF WAUKESHA. PUT SOME PRETTY STRINGENT CONDITIONS ON OUR APPROVAL AND I JUST DON’T SEE THAT BEING SOMETHING THAT IN ANY WAY OR ANY SHAPE OF AN ARGUMENT SAYS THAT IT’S OPENING THE FLOODGATES.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

WAUKESHA’S IN THE PROCESS OF APPLYING FOR PERMITS FROM THE STATE TO START LAYING THE PIPELINES AND GETTING THAT WATER THERE. ARE YOU EXPECTING LEGAL CHALLENGE AT THE STATE LEVEL?

SHAWN REILLY:

WELL, YEAH. WE’RE GOING TO BE APPLYING FOR PERMITS. AND AT THAT POINT YOU CAN ALWAYS REQUEST ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEWS. I’M NOT EXPECTING THOSE TYPE OF CHALLENGES, BUT I WAS A MUNICIPAL ATTORNEY FOR 23 YEARS. DID QUITE A NUMBER OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING — YOU KNOW, I WAS INVOLVED IN SOME, AND I CAN’T RULE THEM OUT. OBVIOUSLY, THERE’S OPPONENTS TO WAUKESHA GETTING WATER FROM THE GREAT LAKES. AND I THINK THAT THEY WILL USE WHATEVER MEANS THEY HAVE TO TRY TO SLOW US DOWN AND/OR PROHIBIT US FROM DOING THIS. IN THE END, THOUGH, I DON’T SEE IT AS BEING SOMETHING THAT WILL STOP THE CITY OF WAUKESHA FROM ATTAINING GREAT LAKES WATER.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

IF ALL GOES AS PLANNED, WHEN DO WE EXPECT LAKE MICHIGAN WATER IN WAUKESHA?

SHAWN REILLY:

OUR BEST ESTIMATE AT THIS POINT IS ABOUT FOUR YEARS FROM NOW.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

MAYOR SHAWN REILLY, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

SHAWN REILLY:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

ONE OF THE REASONS WAUKESHA’S PROPOSAL WAS ACCEPTED WAS THE EIGHT STATES IN THE COMPACT AGREED THIS DIVERSION WAS THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR WAUKESHA’S LONG-TERM WATER NEEDS. TONIGHT WE WANT TO TELL YOU ABOUT AN UPCOMING PROGRAM THAT LOOKS AT WATER WITH ANOTHER LONG-TERM PERSPECTIVE. “YAHARA WATERSHED: A PLACE OF CHANGE” WILL AIR NEXT THURSDAY AT 7:30 ON WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION. THIS DOCUMENTARY FOLLOWS A TEAM OF UW RESEARCHERS AS THEY EXAMINE WHAT THE WATERSHED SURROUNDING THE MADISON AREA COULD LOOK LIKE IN THE YEAR 2070. TO DO SO, THEY BUILT A SOPHISTICATED COMPUTER MODEL THAT CAN PREDICT WHAT THE FUTURE MAY HOLD IN TERMS OF WATER QUALITY, CROP YIELDS OR RUN OFF. HERE’S A PREVIEW.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THERE IS A GENERALIZED BIG PICTURE TO THE YAHARA WATERSHED. DAIRY DOMINATES THE NORTH.

ERIC BOOTH:

WE HAVE A LOT OF LIVESTOCK, PARTICULARLY IN THE UPPER PART OF THE WATERSHED.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THE LAKES AND THE URBAN CORE SIT IN THE MIDDLE.

ERIC BOOTH:

IN THE SOUTHERN PART, IT’S MOSTLY COMMODITY, GRAIN FARMING.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

BOOTH BREAKS THE YAHARA WATERSHED INTO GRID CELLS OF ABOUT 12 ACRES AND THEN DETERMINES WHAT’S GROWING IN EACH CELL. HE EVEN FACTORS IN ANIMALS LIKE COWS AND HOW THEY IMPACT THE LANDSCAPE. THIS IS WHERE REALITY IS FIRST MEASURED AND THEN CONVERTED INTO EQUATIONS AND COMPUTER CODE.

CHRIS KUCHARIK:

IT’S THAT SYSTEM OF EQUATIONS THAT REALLY GO INTO MAKING A MORE COMPLEX MODEL THAT REPRESENTS THE PHYSICS, THE CHEMISTRY, THE INTERACTIONS OF HOW THINGS IN AN ENVIRONMENT WORK TOGETHER.

MELISSA MOTEW:

THIS IS COMPUTER CODE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

MELISSA MOTEW IS A GRADUATE RESEARCH ASSISTANT ON THE YAHARA PROJECT.

MELISSA MOTEW:

I’M MAKING LOTS OF GRAPHS AND ANIMATIONS AND THINGS TO HELP GET AN IDEA OF WHAT THE NUMBERS ARE SAYING.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

SHE’S PART OF THE TEAM WORKING ON WRITING THE CODE THAT MAKES UP THE COMPUTER MODEL. HER GRAPHS HELP HER UNDERSTAND IF THE MODEL IS PRODUCING ACCURATE RESULTS.

MELISSA MOTEW:

WE’RE SEEING WHAT THE MODEL IS GENERATING, CHECKING TO SEE DO THESE NUMBERS MAKE SENSE. DO THEY AGREE WITH WHAT WE’VE SEEN IN THE PAST? WHAT WE UNDERSTAND FROM PREVIOUS RESEARCH.

CHRIS KUCHARIK:

YOU CAN GO OUT AND TAKE FANCY EQUIPMENT AND COLLECT A BUNCH OF JUNK MEASUREMENTS.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

PROFESSOR CHRIS KUCHARIK SAYS THE MODEL IS MORE THAN JUST A SUM OF THEIR MEASUREMENTS.

RESEARCHER:

71.5.

CHRIS KUCHARIK:

WHILE EVERYTHING IS ROOTED IN REALITY, ONCE YOU PUT ALL THE EQUATIONS TOGETHER, THERE’S USUALLY SOME TYPE OF UNCERTAINTY WHEN THINGS START INTERACTING WITH EACH OTHER.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THEY HAVE TO MAKE SURE THE PREDICTIONS OF THE COMPUTER MODEL MATCHES REALITY. THIS PROCESS IS CALLED CALIBRATION AND VALIDATION.

MELISSA MOTEW:

SO WE HAVE TO TEST THEM AGAINST REAL OBSERVATIONS.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

VALIDATION IS PUTTING FIELD DATA FOR PAST YEARS INTO THE COMPUTER MODEL AND SEEING IF THE PREDICTION MATCHES WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

MELISSA MOTEW:

WE RUN SIMULATIONS OF THE PAST AND THEN WE COMPARE THE TWO.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

IF THE PREDICTION DOESN’T MATCH REALITY, THEY HAVE TO CALIBRATE OR ADJUST THE COMPUTER CODE.

MELISSA MOTEW:

SO THEN WE GO OUT AND WE MIGHT TAKE MEASUREMENTS AND REFINE OUR MODELS SO THAT THEY BETTER CAPTURE THAT PROCESS.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

JOINING US NOW IS ONE OF THE CO-PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATORS ON THE YAHARA 2070 PROJECT. UW PROFESSOR MONICA TURNER. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

MONICA TURNER:

THANKS. IT’S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

BROADLY SPEAKING, YAHARA 2070 ASKS WHAT MIGHT THE MADISON AREA LOOK LIKE 50 YEARS FROM NOW. WHAT’S THE VALUE IN ASKING THAT QUESTION?

MONICA TURNER:

THAT’S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION TO ASK BECAUSE WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE WATER THAT WE ALL DEPEND ON IN OUR LANDSCAPE, THE QUALITY AND THE SUPPLY OF THAT WATER DEPENDS A LOT ON WHAT WE DO NOW. AND IT’S GOING TO RESPOND TO HOW WHAT WE DO NOW IN OUR LAND USE PATTERNS INTERACT WITH THE CLIMATE OF THE FUTURE. SO WE HAVE TO LOOK FORWARD A GOOD WAYS. AND IT’S ALSO THAT THE PROCESSES ARE SLOW. SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE WISH TO ACCOMPLISH OR THAT WE HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THEY HAPPEN DON’T HAPPEN AT THE FLICK OF A SWITCH.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

WE FOLLOWED YOUR RESEARCH TEAM FOR A CERTAIN NUMBER OF TIME, FEW YEARS, BUT THE PROJECT CONTINUES ON AFTER THAT. WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED SINCE THEN? WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BIG PICTURE THINGS YOU’VE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE AWAY?

MONICA TURNER:

THERE’S BEEN A NUMBER OF THEM. ONE IS THAT THE WATER QUALITY ACTUALLY CAN IMPROVE AND THERE’S MANY DIFFERENT THINGS. THERE’S MANY DIFFERENT PATHWAYS FOR GETTING THAT TO HAPPEN. BOTH IN TERMS OF KEEPING NITROGEN AND PHOSPHORUS, THOSE EXCESS NUTRIENTS THAT CAN AFFECT OUR LAKES ON THE LANDSCAPE. WE’VE ALSO LEARNED THAT OUR URBAN AREA, OUR CITIES, STORE A LOT OF CARBON. WE WERE A LITTLE BIT SURPRISED ABOUT THAT AS WE’VE PLAYED THAT OUT WITH FINDING OUR DATA.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

A LOT OF THIS LOOKS AT WHAT POLICYMAKERS AND BIG LEVEL PEOPLE CAN DO, BUT ARE THERE THINGS THAT THE AVERAGE HOMEOWNER CAN DO THAT HAVE AN IMPACT ON WATER QUALITY WAY INTO THE FUTURE?

MONICA TURNER:

ABSOLUTELY. A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT WE DO LOCALLY HAVE IMPACTS AS WE PLAY THEM OUT. ONE OF THEM IS AS A LOCAL HOMEOWNER, MAKING SURE THAT THE SOIL ON OUR LAND STAYS ON OUR LAND AND IT DOESN’T RUN INTO THE STORM SEWERS BECAUSE THAT’S ONE OF THE WAYS THAT A LOT OF THE PHOSPHORUS MOVES FROM OUR LANDS INTO THE LAKES. SO THE DECISIONS EACH OF US MAKES LOCALLY HAS A BIG IMPACT.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

WILL YOU BE TAKING THIS TO POLICYMAKERS, PRESENTATIONS AT THE CAPITOL OR OTHER PLACES TO TRY AND INFLUENCE WHAT PEOPLE DO?

MONICA TURNER:

WE WILL BE BECAUSE IN ADDITION TO WHAT WE LOCALLY DO, WE HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE SOME OF THE CHANGES THAT WILL HELP OUR LANDSCAPE AND OUR WATERS BE RESILIENT IN THE FUTURE. THINGS LIKE REDUCING FLOODING, FOR EXAMPLE. I HAD TROUBLE GETTING INTO MY NEIGHBORHOOD A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO BECAUSE OF URBAN FLOODING. WE EXPECT TO SEE MORE INTENSE RAIN EVENTS COMING FORWARD. SO ACTUALLY ANTICIPATING SOME OF THOSE CHANGES AND MAKING OUR LANDSCAPES OF THE FUTURE RESILIENT TO THAT TAKES COLLECTIVE ACTION. SO, YES, WE WILL DEFINITELY BE TAKING IT OUT TO OUR POLICYMAKERS AND TO THE OTHER RESIDENTS IN THE REGION.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THIS SHOW FOCUSES ON THE YAHARA, WHICH IS THE AREA SURROUNDING MADISON, BUT DOES THIS EXTRAPOLATE TO THE REST OF THE STATE?

MONICA TURNER:

IT DOES. IT ACTUALLY EXTRAPOLATES EVEN BEYOND THE STATE BECAUSE THE YAHARA BASIN IS A WONDERFUL MICROCOSM OR LOCAL STUDY AREA FOR MANY OF OUR UPPER MIDWESTERN LANDSCAPES, WHERE WE HAVE CITIES AND AGRICULTURE TOGETHER. WE HAVE OPPORTUNITIES FOR RESTORING SOME OF OUR NATIVE VEGETATION AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR IMPROVING WHAT WE DO IN OUR LAND, AGRICULTURAL LANDS AND IN OUR CITIES TO MAKE OUR FUTURES A LOT MORE DESIRABLE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

NOW, ONE OF THE AREAS THAT YOU FOCUSED ON IN THE STUDY THAT’S ACTUALLY IN THE SPECIAL IS YOU LOOKED AT SOME OF THE INVASIVE SPECIES THAT ARE COMING IN, SPECIFICALLY CRAZY WORMS COMING INTO THE ARBORETUM. HOW MUCH OF A FLUX CAN THIS MEAN IN TERMS OF TRYING TO PREDICT THE FUTURE OR HANDLE THINGS IN THE FUTURE?

MONICA TURNER:

THAT’S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION. THESE ARE THE TYPES OF THINGS THAT WE DON’T ALWAYS ANTICIPATE AND WE WERE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF STUDYING THEM. I THINK THEY CAN MATTER QUITE A BIT. IT’S ONE OF THE REASONS WE WANT TO BUFFER OUR LANDSCAPES SO THAT THEY CAN HANDLE UNEXPECTED SHOCKS. WITH THE ASIAN WORMS, THAT’S A CASE WHERE WE ALSO HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE INFORMATION NOW SINCE THE DOCUMENTARY WAS FILMED. WE’VE LEARNED THAT THE NITRATE IN THE SOIL GOES WAY UP AND THAT COULD LEECH INTO OUR GROUNDWATER. WE ALSO LEARNED THAT THEY CHOMP THROUGH THE LITTER, LIKE THE VEGETATION OR MULCH ON THE SOIL SURFACE REALLY, REALLY QUICKLY. THAT COULD AFFECT OUR NATIVE PLANT SPECIES, THE WATER IN OUR SOILS AND THE LIKE. SO I THINK WE HAVE TO BE PREPARED FOR THOSE THINGS.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

VERY INTERESTING. WE’LL KEEP WATCHING. THANK YOU.

MONICA TURNER:

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

WELL, THE ISSUES WE’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT ARE AMONG THE MANY COVERED IN OUR NEW DOCUMENTARY “YAHARA WATERSHED: A PLACE OF CHANGE.” IT’LL AIR ON WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION NEXT THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 1, AT 7:30. ALSO NEXT THURSDAY, ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE RESEARCH TEAM WILL BE ON WISCONSIN PUBLIC RADIO’S CENTRAL TIME WHICH BEGINS AT 3 P.M. MILWAUKEE PUBLIC TELEVISION VIEWERS CAN SEE THE DOC ON FRIDAY, OCTOBER 14 AT 6:00 P.M. NEXT WEEK ON “HERE AND NOW,” WE’LL HAVE THE NEW STATEWIDE POLITICAL POLL NUMBERS AND STATE SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT TONY EVERS WILL ALSO BE HERE TO FORECAST A SCHOOL STAFFING SHORTAGE EVEN AS THE NEW SCHOOL YEAR BEGINS. THANKS FOR WATCHING. HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

ANNOUNCER:

FUNDING FOR “HERE AND NOW” IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION. FOR MORE INFORMATION ON “HERE AND NOW’S” 2016 ELECTION COVERAGE, GO TO wisconsinvote.org.