ANNOUNCER:

THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS PART OF OUR “HERE AND NOW” 2016 WISCONSIN VOTE ELECTION COVERAGE. FUNDING FOR “HERE AND NOW” IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. TONIGHT ON “HERE AND NOW,” DEADLY VIOLENCE AGAINST POLICE IN DALLAS. WE’LL HEAR FROM A REGIONAL PRESIDENT OF THE BLACK POLICE ASSOCIATION. DEMOCRATS MOVE TO REPEAL WISCONSIN’S ADMITTING PRIVILEGE ABORTION LAW. AND EMAILS AND TWEETS, THE LATEST ON THE CLINTON-TRUMP RACE HEADING INTO THE POLITICAL CONVENTIONS. BUT FIRST, UNSPEAKABLE VIOLENCE IN DALLAS THURSDAY NIGHT, AS SNIPER FIRE DURING A PROTEST OVER RECENT POLICE SHOOTINGS LEAVES FIVE POLICE OFFICERS DEAD. THE SHOOTING HAPPENED IN THE MIDST OF A PROTEST OVER AN OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTING IN LOUISIANA AND ALSO ONE IN A SUBURB OF ST. PAUL, WHERE THE MINNESOTA GOVERNOR PROMISES JUSTICE. THE GOVERNOR CALLING THE SHOOTING DEATH OF PHILANDO CASTILE DURING A TRAFFIC STOP QUOTE APPALLING AT ALL LEVELS AND ALSO SAYING THE MAN WOULD BE ALIVE IF HE WERE WHITE. CASTILE WAS REPORTEDLY PULLED OVER FOR A BROKEN TAILLIGHT, TOLD THE OFFICER HE HAD A LICENSED GUN, AND WHEN HE REACHED FOR HIS DRIVER’S LICENSE, WAS SHOT AND KILLED BY THE OFFICER. OF COURSE, WISCONSIN HAS HAD ITS OWN OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS WITH ATTENDANT PROTESTS AND CALLS FOR JUSTICE. BUT HOW DOES WHAT HAPPENED OVERNIGHT IN DALLAS CHANGE THINGS? TONIGHT WE ARE JOINED BY NORMAN, OKLAHOMA POLICE CHIEF KEITH HUMPHREY, WHO IS REGIONAL PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL BLACK POLICE ASSOCIATION. THE REGION INCLUDES MINNESOTA AND WISCONSIN. CHIEF, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

KEITH HUMPHREY:

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

FIRST, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT HAPPENED IN DALLAS?

KEITH HUMPHREY:

IT’S LEFT ME SPEECHLESS. AS A CHIEF EXECUTIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, IT’S A NIGHTMARE OR INCIDENTS THAT NONE OF US WANT TO ENCOUNTER. AND MY HEART AND MY THOUGHTS GO OUT TO CHIEF BROWN AND THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT. IT’S JUST TRAGIC. AND NO ONE WANTS TO GO THROUGH THAT SITUATION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU’RE FROM DALLAS ORIGINALLY, WORKED NEARBY AS A POLICE OFFICER IN FORT WORTH. YOU KNOW THESE PEOPLE.

KEITH HUMPHREY:

ABSOLUTELY. I KNOW THE DALLAS/FORT WORTH AREA LIKE ANY OTHER METROPOLITAN AREA, ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES WORK TOGETHER. WE FORM A BOND, A FRIENDSHIP. AND SO, YES, WE ALL KNOW EACH OTHER, AND THAT’S WHAT MAKES THIS VERY DIFFICULT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THE POLICE CHIEF THERE SAYS THE SHOOTING SUSPECT TALKED ABOUT WANTING TO KILL WHITE OFFICERS. HOW DOES THIS AFFECT THE WORK TO BUILD TRUST BETWEEN POLICE AND COMMUNITIES GOING FORWARD?

KEITH HUMPHREY:

WELL, I THINK IT’S A CONCERN. I THINK THAT OFFICERS THINK ABOUT THIS. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I KNOW THEY DO. I’VE HAD THESE CONVERSATIONS WITH MY OFFICERS. I THINK THE MOST FRIGHTENING PART IS THAT YOU’RE SELECTING SPECIFIC OFFICERS TO TARGET. AND THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THAT’S JUST DISTURBING. NOW, DOES THAT PUT A CONCERN — DOES THAT HAVE A POSSIBILITY TO PUT — TO SPLIT COMMUNITIES? ABSOLUTELY. BUT AS A POLICE CHIEF, YOU HAVE TO CONTINUE TO REMIND YOUR OFFICERS WHAT OUR PURPOSE AND OUR FOCUSES ARE AND THAT’S TO PROTECT EVERYONE WITHIN THAT CITY. PEOPLE RESPECT THE POLICE. THERE’S A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE COMMUNITIES, OF THE NATION, THAT HAS A PROBLEM WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT RIGHT NOW. AND SO WE JUST HAVE TO REMIND OUR GUYS THAT WE ARE HERE TO PROTECT EVERYONE AND NOT EVERYONE IS AGAINST US.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SPECIFIC TO ONE OF THE OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS PROMPTING PROTESTS ACROSS THE NATION AND IN DALLAS, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE SHOOTING IN MINNESOTA?

KEITH HUMPHREY:

WELL, JUST FROM WHAT I KNOW, YOU KNOW, IT’S STILL EARLY IN THE INVESTIGATION, BUT FROM WHAT I SAW, IT WAS DISTURBING. YOU KNOW, I FEEL FOR THE FAMILY. IF I MAY, I HAVE A STATEMENT FROM OUR LOCAL NBPA CHAPTER REGARDING THE INCIDENT. BUT IT WAS VERY DISTURBING, TO SEE A DECEASED PERSON SITTING NEXT TO A LOVED ONE AND REALIZE THERE WAS A CHILD IN THE BACK SEAT. I WISH THAT ON NO ONE. THAT’S AN INCIDENT THAT WE DON’T TRAIN FOR. THOSE ARE INCIDENTS THAT WE HOPE NEVER OCCUR. AND SO THAT WAS JUST A VERY DISTURBING SIGHT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE GOVERNOR’S REMARKS IN MINNESOTA, THAT IF THE MAN WERE WHITE, HE WOULDN’T BE DEAD?

KEITH HUMPHREY:

WELL, YOU KNOW, I RESPECT THE GOVERNOR. I RESPECT THE POLITICIANS IN THE ROLES OF LEADERSHIP. BUT I’M QUITE DISTURBED REGARDING THE COMMENT THIS EARLY INTO THE INVESTIGATION. I DON’T KNOW WHY THAT WAS SAID. I DON’T KNOW WHY — I THINK COMMENTS LIKE THAT HAVE THE TENDENCY TO INCITE COMMUNITIES. AND SO HE MAY KNOW SOMETHING I DON’T KNOW, BUT I WILL TELL YOU THAT WHEN YOU SAY THAT OFFICERS ARE PROFILING, THAT’S A VERY SERIOUS ALLEGATION. AND IN THIS DAY AND TIME, IT INCITES PEOPLE TO HAVE ISSUES WITH THE POLICE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT IS POLICE TRAINING ON TRAFFIC STOPS WHEN A DRIVER OR PASSENGER SAYS THAT THEY HAVE A LICENSED OR A GUN PERMIT IN THEIR POSSESSION?

KEITH HUMPHREY:

WELL, I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR MY DEPARTMENT. WE GO THROUGH VERY INTENSE TRAINING ON THAT. OKLAHOMA IS A STATE THAT HAS CONCEAL HANDGUN. WE RECENTLY WENT TO OPEN CARRY. ONE OF THE THINGS WE TEACH OUR OFFICERS IS THAT LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS HAVE THE RIGHT TO CARRY WEAPONS ON THEIR PERSON. AND SO WE TEACH OFFICERS NOT TO PANIC, TRY NOT TO HAVE THE CITIZEN PANIC. THERE’S A DIALOGUE WHICH YOU MUST HAVE WITH THOSE CITIZENS, THANKING THEM FOR ADVISING YOU THAT THEY HAVE A CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE, ASKING THEM WHERE THE WEAPON IS, TELLING THEM TO KEEP THEIR HANDS WHERE THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD LET US KNOW ABOUT ANY MOVEMENT YOU MAY MAKE. BUT EDUCATING THE CITIZEN ON WHAT STEPS TO TAKE. AND ALSO THE CITIZENS ASKING THE OFFICERS — IF THEY’RE NOT CLEAR, ASKING THEM EXACTLY WHAT THEY NEED THEM TO DO IN ORDER TO HELP THE SITUATION END PEACEFULLY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO I DID WANT TO ASK, WHAT SHOULD DRIVERS OR PASSENGERS DO IN THAT CIRCUMSTANCE?

KEITH HUMPHREY:

LET THE POLICE OFFICER KNOW YOU’RE A LICENSED HOLDER. TELL THEM WHERE YOUR DRIVER’S LICENSE AND YOUR REGISTRATION AND YOUR INSURANCE INFORMATION. ASK THEM DO THEY MIND IF YOU REACH FOR IT. IF THEY SAY I’D RATHER YOU NOT, COULD YOU STEP OUT OF THE CAR. I THINK THE BIGGEST THING IS TO JUST FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS OF THE POLICE OFFICER AND DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO TO KEEP YOUR HANDS IN PLAIN VIEW. DON’T MAKE ANY SUDDEN MOTIONS. AND REALIZE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR ACTIONS ARE AS A CITIZEN, BUT, HOWEVER, AN OFFICER KNOWS WHAT YOUR INTENTIONS ARE UNTIL THEY REALLY GET TO SPEAKING WITH YOU AND KIND OF REALIZE THAT YOU ARE A LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT MESSAGE DOES YOUR ORGANIZATION, THE NATIONAL BLACK POLICE ASSOCIATION, HAVE, WHAT MESSAGE DO YOU HAVE AS THIS NATION SEEMS GRIPPED BY VIOLENCE BETWEEN OFFICERS AND CITIZENS?

KEITH HUMPHREY:

WELL, I TELL YOU, WE’VE DONE SO MUCH IN THE ORGANIZATION AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AS A WHOLE. WE’VE DONE SO MUCH TO WIN BACK THE TRUST OF OUR COMMUNITIES. AND I WOULD JUST SHARE THAT WE ARE THE SAME LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES THAT THE CITIZENS BELIEVE IN. COMMUNITY-ORIENTED POLICING HAS REALLY HELPED BRIDGE THE GAP BETWEEN PREVIOUS DISSENSIONS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND COMMUNITIES. WE HEAR YOU. WE UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCERN. WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO WORK WITH YOU. WE WANT TO BE TRANSPARENT. WE WANT OUR CITIZENS TO KNOW THAT THIS IS NOT A BLACK OR WHITE — WE DON’T SEE BLACK AND WHITE. HOPEFULLY WE DON’T. AND I THINK I CAN SPEAK FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE OFFICERS. I’M NOT BLIND TO THE FACT THAT YOU MAY NOT HAVE OFFICERS OUT THERE THAT HAVE THESE HANGUPS OR HAVE THESE BIASES. BUT I WILL TELL YOU THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE OFFICERS OUT HERE TAKE PRIDE IN PROTECTING EVERY ONE OF THEIR CITIZENS, NO MATTER THEIR ETHNICITY, THEIR RELIGION. WE TAKE PRIDE IN THAT BECAUSE IT’S A PRIVILEGE TO BE A POLICE OFFICER. AND IT’S MORE OF A PRIVILEGE TO PROTECT OUR COMMUNITIES. AND SO THAT’S WHAT WE WANT THE CITIZENS TO UNDERSTAND, THAT WE ARE NOT OUT HERE GUNNING DOWN ANYONE, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE OF COLOR, MEN OF COLOR. MAY I READ SOMETHING FROM THE LOCAL NBPA MINNESOTA CHAPTER REAL BRIEFLY?

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YES. YES.

KEITH HUMPHREY:

OKAY. WE EXTEND OUR DEEPEST CONDOLENCES TO THE CASTILE AND REYNOLDS FAMILY AND FRIENDS OF THE COMMUNITY. OUR ORGANIZATION SUPPORTS A THOROUGH AND INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF FACTS. WE SUPPORT THE BUREAU OF CRIMINAL APPREHENSION TAKING THE INITIAL LEAD AND WELCOME AND SUPPORT THE COMMUNITY’S REQUEST FOR FEDERAL INVESTIGATION. AS AN ASSOCIATION, WE ARE HERE TO ASSURE TRUST AND ACCOUNTABILITY BETWEEN THE COMMUNITIES WE SERVE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT. AND THAT’S FROM THE LOCAL CHAPTER OF MINNESOTA, AND I WANTED TO SHARE THAT WITH YOU ALL. AND THAT IS ALSO THE WORDS OF THE NATIONAL BLACK POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION, NOT JUST REGION TWO, BUT OUR NATIONAL OFFICE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. CHIEF KEITH HUMPHREY, AGAIN, THANK YOU.

KEITH HUMPHREY:

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW TO STATE POLITICAL NEWS. WISCONSIN LEGISLATIVE DEMOCRATS ARE CALLING ON REPUBLICANS TO GET ABORTION RESTRICTIONS OFF THE BOOKS NOW THAT THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS RULED SIMILAR TEXAS STATUTES ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL. DEMOCRATS WANT TO DITCH THE PORTION OF WISCONSIN’S ACT 37 THAT REQUIRES PHYSICIANS TO HAVE HOSPITAL ADMITTING PRIVILEGES WITHIN 30 MILES OF ANY FACILITY WHERE AN ABORTION WOULD BE PERFORMED. THE NATION’S HIGH COURT RULED THAT THAT REQUIREMENT FAILS TO OFFER MEDICAL BENEFITS SUFFICIENT TO JUSTIFY THE BURDEN UPON ACCESS AND THAT IT IMPOSES AND DOESN’T ENHANCE SAFETY OF ABORTIONS. WHILE SHE COULDN’T JOIN US FOR AN INTERVIEW, HERE’S WHAT THE AUTHOR OF THAT LAW, REPUBLICAN SENATOR MARY LAZICH, SAID ABOUT THE PROVISIONS IN 2013.

MARY LAZICH:

WE CAN STAND BY WOMEN AND WE CAN GIVE THEM A BETTER MINIMUM LEVEL OF HEALTH CARE, TO HAVE ADMITTING PRIVILEGES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY DURING AN ABORTION, TO HAVE ADMITTING PRIVILEGES AND TO TAKE CARE OF THE WOMAN. AT THE PRESENT TIME, SOME FACILITIES DON’T HAVE THAT AND WOMEN ARE LEFT TO MAKE THEIR WAY TO AN EMERGENCY ROOM AND TRY TO DESCRIBE WHAT’S HAPPENED TO THEM AND THE REASON THEY’RE THERE. AND, YOU KNOW, IF A FACILITY DOESN’T PROVIDE THAT TYPE OF THING, MEANING THE ULTRASOUND AND ADMITTING PRIVILEGES, IT REALLY SENDS UP A RED FLAG AND YOU REALLY WANT TO THINK ABOUT SEEKING HEALTH CARE FROM THAT TYPE OF FACILITY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AFTER THOSE ARGUMENTS ON ADMITTING PRIVILEGES WERE RULED UNCONSTITUTIONAL BY THE SUPREME COURT, WISCONSIN ATTORNEY GENERAL BRAD SCHIMEL SAID THOSE PORTIONS OF OUR LAW ADDRESSED BY THE DECISIONS ARE NOW PERMANENTLY ENJOINED. BUT DEMOCRATS WANT SOMETHING MORE. WE’RE JOINED BY SENATOR JON ERPENBACH OF MIDDLETON AND THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

JON ERPENBACH:

THANKS. MY PLEASURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WHY ISN’T IT ENOUGH TO ENJOIN THIS LAW?

JON ERPENBACH:

TECHNICALLY THE LAW IS STILL ON OUR BOOKS. THERE’S ACTUALLY A FEW LAWS ON OUR BOOKS THAT ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE GO. I DON’T KNOW WHY IT HAS TO STAY ON OUR BOOKS. SO WHAT WE’RE ASKING THE MAJORITY LEADER AND THE SPEAKER TO DO IN JANUARY, ASSUMING THEY’RE IN THE MAJORITY. THEY MAY OR MAY NOT BE, WE’LL SEE AFTER ELECTION TIME, IS WE NEED TO TAKE THAT LAW OFF THE BOOKS BECAUSE IT’S NOT CONSTITUTIONAL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IS THERE ANY WAY AT ALL THAT A LAW THAT REMAINS ON THE BOOKS BUT IS ENJOINED CAN SOMEHOW BE RECONSTITUTED?

JON ERPENBACH:

UNLESS THE SUPREME COURT REVERSES ITS DECISION, THEN IF IT’S STILL ON THE BOOKS, OBVIOUSLY THE LAW BECOMES IMMEDIATE THAT DAY, I WOULD ASSUME, NOT BEING A LEGAL EXPERT. BUT AT THE SAME TIME IF IT’S NOT CONSTITUTIONAL, IT’S WASTING SPACE. IT DOESN’T NEED TO BE ON OUR BOOKS. SO I THINK THERE’S A LAW ON THE BOOKS THAT MAKE A DOCTOR PERFORMING ABORTION A FELONY OR A CRIME OF SOME SORT. THAT’S NOT CONSTITUTIONAL. THAT’S STILL ON OUR BOOKS. SO, AGAIN, WE KNEW THE INTENT OF THIS LEGISLATION, WHAT IT WAS ABOUT ALL ALONG. THE SUPREME COURT HAS SIDED WITH US, ACTUALLY BASED ON SOME OF THE ARGUMENTS WE’VE USED ON THE FLOOR IN THE SENATE AND THE ASSEMBLY WHEN WE WERE DEBATING THIS. BUT, AGAIN, IT’S NOT CONSTITUTIONAL, HAS NO BUSINESS BEING ON OUR BOOKS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND THE PORTION OF THIS LAW THAT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL IS THIS ADMITTING PRIVILEGES. IT DOESN’T GO TO THE ULTRASOUND THAT’S ALSO PART OF ACT 37.

JON ERPENBACH:

CORRECT. IT’S THE ADMITTING PRIVILEGES. AND BASICALLY IF A DOCTOR CAN’T GET ADMITTING PRIVILEGES IN A HOSPITAL, THE CLINIC ESSENTIALLY HAS TO BECOME A HOSPITAL, WHICH THEN IMPEDES A WOMAN’S LEGAL RIGHT TO A SAFE ABORTION. SO THAT’S WHY IT WAS RULED UNCONSTITUTIONAL. AND AGAIN, GETTING BACK TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER THIS WEEK WHEN WE DID THE PRESS CALL AND PUT OUT STATEMENTS ABOUT HOW IT’S UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND WE KNOW THAT NOW, AND IT DOESN’T NEED TO BE ON OUR BOOKS. I THINK THE FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS IN JANUARY IF REPUBLICANS ARE IN THE MAJORITY IS WE NEED TO GET RID OF THAT UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND IF REPUBLICANS ARE IN THE MAJORITY AND THEY TAKE YOU UP ON THAT, HAVE YOU HAD ANY WORD FROM THEM AS TO THEIR RESPONSE TO THIS CALL?

JON ERPENBACH:

NO. NO, WE HAVEN’T. AND I THINK NOT TO SPEAK FOR SENATOR FITZGERALD — I THINK HE BASICALLY CALLED IT A STUNT. IT’S NOT. THIS IS SOMETHING WE’RE VERY SERIOUS ABOUT. THIS IS A PASSIONATE ISSUE OBVIOUSLY FOR BOTH SIDES. THEY WERE WRONG. THE SUPREME COURT SAID THEY WERE WRONG AND THE LAW NEEDS TO COME OFF THE BOOKS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

MEANWHILE, LEGISLATORS WHO FAVOR THESE KINDS OF RESTRICTIONS ON ABORTION SAY THAT THE HIGH COURT RULING MEANS THAT THEY JUST HAVE TO WORK HARDER AND THERE ARE ALREADY PROPOSALS IN THE WORKS FOR A BILL THAT WOULD REQUIRE DOCTORS TO TELL PATIENTS WHO REQUEST AN ABORTION PILL THAT GETTING INJECTIONS OF PROGESTERONE COULD REVERSE THE EFFECTS OF THE ABORTION PILL AND THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE DIRECTED TO WEBSITES SUCH AS ABORTIONPILLREVERSAL.COM. WHAT’S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

JON ERPENBACH:

THERE ISN’T ANYBODY IN THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY WHO AGREES WITH THAT. THERE ISN’T ANYBODY IN THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY WHO THINKS THAT THAT’S A GOOD IDEA. THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE, COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME, FIRST OF ALL. AND WHAT IT SAYS TO A WOMAN HERE IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH YOUR BODY REALLY DOESN’T MATTER. AND TO DRIVE THAT POINT HOME, WE’RE GOING TO GO INTO CRAZY SCIENCE AND JUNK SCIENCE TO PROVE THAT YOUR OPINION ON YOUR BODY AND WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO DO DOESN’T MATTER. I WISH THEY WOULD WORK JUST AS HARD ON TRYING TO FIND PEOPLE JOBS HERE IN THE STATE, BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT REALLY MATTERS RIGHT NOW. I WISH THEY WOULD WORK JUST AS HARD RIGHT NOW IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN TO TRY AND DEAL WITH THE MASS SHOOTINGS WE HAVE AROUND THIS COUNTRY AND TALK ABOUT SOME LEGITIMATE, SERIOUS GUN CONTROL. THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE ALONG WITH WHAT REPRESENTATIVE KREMER WANTS TO INTRODUCE IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF OUR TIME. THIS LAW IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL. IT NEEDS TO COME OFF OUR BOOKS. AND REPRESENTATIVE KREMER NEEDS TO FIND SOMETHING BETTER TO DO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS GOING ALONG WITH THAT?

JON ERPENBACH:

BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE STANDING UP SAYING, “YUP, THIS IS A GOOD IDEA. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO.” FROM WHAT I’VE READ AND WHAT I’VE SEEN, THERE ISN’T ANYBODY WITHIN THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY WHO THINKS THAT THAT’S A GOOD IDEA.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. SENATOR JON ERPENBACH, THANK YOU.

JON ERPENBACH:

THANKS. MY PLEASURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW TO ENVIRONMENTAL NEWS. TO PROTECT WATER QUALITY, WISCONSIN LAW ALLOWS LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO APPLY FOR STRONGER REGULATIONS ON FARM RUNOFF POLLUTION THAN THE STATE STANDARDS. IN ANTICIPATION OF AN IOWA-BASED PORK PRODUCER MOVING 26,000 HOGS NEARBY THE SOUTH FISH CREEK WATERSHED, THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT THE BAYFIELD COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS DID. AND THE DNR REJECTED THE ORDINANCE PROPOSAL. DRINKING WATER FOR 8,000 PEOPLE IS IN THE CROSS-HAIRS OF ALL THAT MANURE, SAYS OUR NEXT GUEST, BAYFIELD RESIDENT MARY DOUGHERTY REPRESENTS FARMS NOT FACTORIES. SHE’S IN ASHLAND. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

MARY DOUGHERTY:

THANK YOU. LOOKING FORWARD TO IT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHY DID YOU AND OTHERS WANT THIS ORDINANCE?

MARY DOUGHERTY:

BECAUSE 10,000 — OR, EXCUSE ME, 26,000 HOGS AND 10 MILLION GALLONS OF MANURE IS GOING TO FIND ITS WAY INTO THE CHEQUAMEGON BAY, WHICH IS WHERE 8.000 PEOPLE IN ASHLAND, WISCONSIN GET THEIR DRINKING WATER. WE THOUGHT IF THE STATE COULD ALLOW BAYFIELD COUNTY TO ADEQUATELY AND ROBUSTLY MANAGE ALL THAT MANURE, THAT WE WOULD DO EVERYTHING WE COULD TO MAKE SURE LAND USE IN BAYFIELD COUNTY DOESN’T NEGATIVELY IMPACT THE DRINKING WATER OF 8,000 PEOPLE IN ASHLAND COUNTY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU DON’T THINK THE STATE STANDARDS OBVIOUSLY WERE STRONG ENOUGH TO PROTECT THAT WATERSHED?

MARY DOUGHERTY:

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RECENT LEGISLATIVE AUDIT BUREAU REPORT THAT SHOWS THAT THE DNR OVER A PERIOD OF I THINK ABOUT TEN YEARS ONLY ISSUED NOTICES OF VIOLATION FOR LESS THAN 6% OF THE NOTICES OF VIOLATIONS THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ISSUED, I FEEL LIKE WE ARE VERY — OUR CONCERNS ARE VERY WELL-FOUNDED.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN THE DNR REJECTED THAT ORDINANCE THAT HAD KIND OF STRICTER REGULATIONS?

MARY DOUGHERTY:

WELL, YOU KNOW, I WAS — I KIND OF EXPECTED IT, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. WHEN YOU LOOK AT — WHEN YOU TAKE A STEP BACK AND LOOK AT WHAT OUR WISCONSIN DNR — THEIR MANTRA OF OPEN FOR BUSINESS. OPEN FOR BUSINESS DOESN’T MEAN THAT THEY’RE OPEN TO BE, YOU KNOW, THE GATEKEEPERS OF THE PUBLIC TRUST DOCTRINE. OPEN FOR BUSINESS DOESN’T MEAN THAT THEY’RE THERE TO HELP PRESERVE DRINKING WATER FOR 8,000 PEOPLE. IT MEANS THEY’RE OPEN FOR BUSINESS. AND SO IN A WAY I KIND OF EXPECTED IT. ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK THAT THE COMPLEXITY THAT WE’RE IN NOW WITH THE SITUATION OF THE DNR — WE — CITIZENS DID EVERYTHING THAT WE WERE TOLD WE COULD DO. THE DNR SAID NO. THAT THERE’S MORE THINGS WE HAVE TO DO. AND SO I THINK WE’RE GETTING TO SOME PRETTY INTERESTING TERRITORY, FIGURING OUT WHO DOES THE DNR WORK FOR AND WHAT ARE THEY PROTECTING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

OF COURSE, WE DID INVITE THE DNR TO JOIN US WITH THIS DISCUSSION. THEY DECLINED OUR INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE. HOWEVER, NANCY LARSON, DNR’S WATERSHED SUPERVISOR BASED IN ASHLAND SAID THE PROPOSED ORDINANCE DOESN’T ADDRESS CURRENT THREATS, WHICH IS REQUIRED BY THE DEPARTMENT. SHE SAYS, QUOTE, THE BAYFIELD ORDINANCE ADDRESSES A POTENTIAL OR PROSPECTIVE CONDITION AND DOESN’T ADDRESS EXISTING CONDITIONS CONTRIBUTING TO WATER QUALITY ISSUES. THE NEWLY-ADOPTED BAYFIELD COUNTY ORDINANCE WOULD ONLY AFFECT LARGE FARMS KNOWN AS CAFOS IN THE SOUTH FISH CREEK WATERSHED. A LARGE HOG CAFO HAS BEEN PROPOSED, BUT THERE ARE CURRENTLY NO CAFOS IN THE WATERSHED. SO THAT’S THE DNR’S RESPONSE TO THIS. WILL THE APPEAL OF THE DNR’S DECISION REJECTING THIS ORDINANCE THAT I UNDERSTAND IS UNDERWAY ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT PROMPTED THE DNR TO DENY IT?

MARY DOUGHERTY:

I CAN’T ANSWER THAT IN ANY SUBSTANTIVE MANNER. I KNOW THAT THE COUNTY BOARD SUPERVISORS ARE IN THE PROCESS OF WORKING WITH THE DNR TO ADDRESS THEIR CONCERNS AND PERHAPS CRAFT AN ORDINANCE THAT IS MORE ACCEPTABLE. MY CONCERN COMES DOWN TO, IN RESPONSE TO MISS LARSON’S, YOU KNOW, DESCRIPTION OF WHY THE DNR DIDN’T APPROVE IT IS THAT THE DNR’S OWN DATA FROM 2003, THEY DID A SOURCE WATER ASSESSMENT FOR THE CITY OF ASHLAND, AND THE SOURCE WATER ASSESSMENT PROCESS IS SOMETHING THAT IS PUT INTO PLACE BY THE SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT. THE DNR’S OWN WORDS SAY THAT THE CITY OF ASHLAND’S DRINKING WATER IS VERY — IS HIGHLY SUSCEPTIBLE TO RUNOFF AND CONTAMINATION BECAUSE IT’S A SURFACE WATER SYSTEM. SO WE HAVE THAT INFORMATION OVER HERE. AND 13 YEARS AGO THE DNR SAID, CITY OF ASHLAND, YOU GUYS HAVE TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE YOUR WATER CAN BE AFFECTED BY RUNOFF, AMONG OTHER THINGS. AND THEN IN 2016, MARIANNE LOUDES SENT A LETTER TO MAYOR LEWIS SAYING-VERY CLEARLY, YOU MUST UNDERSTAND IF THE APPLICANT MEETS ALL THE STATUTORY AND LEGISLATIVE OR — YOU KNOW — BASICALLY IF HE FILLS OUT HIS PAPERWORK CORRECTLY, DALE REICKS FROM IOWA GETS TO HAVE HIS HOG FARM IN THE CHEQUAMEGON BAY. SO I FEEL IT’S SOMEWHAT DISINGENUOUS FOR HER TO SAY BECAUSE IT’S A POTENTIAL LAND USE ISSUE. THE DNR SAID THEY’RE GOING TO PERMIT IT IF HE FILLS OUT HIS PAPERWORK.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND THAT PERMITTING IS STILL IN PROCESS. MARY DOUGHERTY, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS.

MARY DOUGHERTY:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

FINALLY TONIGHT, THE HEAT IS ON MID-SUMMER, AND IT IS NOT JUST THE WEATHER. PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS ARE HOTTER THAN HOT RIGHT NOW AND NOT LIKELY TO COOL ANYTIME SOON. HOW DO CONTROVERSIES SWIRLING AROUND THE TOP-OF-THE-TICKET CANDIDATES AFFECT CANDIDATES DOWN-TICKET? WE CHECK IN NOW WITH ELECTIONS EXPERT MICHAEL WAGNER, UW-MADISON PROFESSOR OF JOURNALISM. THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

MY PLEASURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

OBVIOUSLY THE NATION IS KNOCKED BACK ON ITS HEELS, WHAT WITH THE DALLAS SHOOTINGS, AND APPARENTLY THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES HAVE CANCELLED SOME OF THEIR EVENTS. BUT THE RACE GOES ON. SO LET’S TAKE THE TEMPERATURE OF HILLARY CLINTON, NOW EMBROILED IN THIS POST-FBI INVESTIGATION INTO HER EMAIL USE. DESPITE RECOMMENDATION THAT SHE NOT BE INDICTED, HOW BAD IS THIS FOR HER, DO YOU THINK, GOING FORWARD?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

WELL, IT GIVES SOMETHING FOR HER REPUBLICAN OPPONENTS TO PUT IN TELEVISION ADVERTISEMENTS. THE FBI CALLS HER EXTREMELY CARELESS AND DO YOU WANT AN EXTREMELY CARELESS PRESIDENT. SO I’M SURE WE’LL SEE A LOT OF ADVERTISEMENTS THAT USE THAT PHRASE IN PARTICULAR. AND ALSO SHOW HER SAYING THINGS THAT LATER THE FBI DIRECTOR SAID WERE NOT TRUE. AND SO WE’LL PROBABLY SEE SOME OF THAT GOING FORWARD. BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN POTENTIALLY CATASTROPHIC FOR HER CAMPAIGN TO GET INDICTED. SHE CAN CONTINUE TO PASS THIS OFF AS A PARTISAN EXERCISE DESPITE WHAT CAME AT HER FROM THE OTHER SIDE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT ABOUT DONALD TRUMP WHO PERSISTS IN STEPPING IN CONTROVERSIES? IS HE STARTING TO LOOK FOR PRESIDENTIAL TO ESTABLISHMENT GOP DETRACTORS?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

I’M NOT SURE THAT HE IS JUST YET. IT SEEMS EVERY TIME HE DOES WHERE THE FIRST HEADLINE IS TRUMP IS TRYING TO PIVOT TO BECOME MORE PRESIDENTIAL, HE DOES SOMETHING THAT STEPS BACK THE OTHER DIRECTION. HE MAKES A STATEMENT THAT SEEMS PRESIDENTIAL, AND THEN HE SAYS, “SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS SURE GOOD AT KILLING TERRORISTS” OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT THAT KNOCKS OFF THE MESSAGE THAT HE WANTED TO PORTRAY IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. SO I DON’T KNOW THAT HE’S MADE THAT PIVOT. AND I THINK THE REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE WHO MET WITH HIM EARLIER THIS WEEK WERE TRYING TO MAKE THAT POINT TO HIM AS WELL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS APPARENT DRAFT WALKER EFFORT ON THE PART OF FORMER TED CRUZ PAC?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

IT’S SORT OF PECULIAR THAT A PAC THAT WAS ORIGINALLY SUPPORTING SOMEONE ELSE IS NOW TRYING TO GET GOVERNOR WALKER TO MAKE HIMSELF AVAILABLE TO BE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE IN A FLOOR FIGHT ESSENTIALLY. GOVERNOR WALKER HAS BEEN LUKEWARM, AT BEST, IN HIS SUPPORT OF DONALD TRUMP. HE’S NOT REALLY WAVERED IN THAT HE SAID HE’LL SUPPORT THE NOMINEE. AT TIMES HE SAID I WANT HIM TO TAKE BACK SOME THINGS HE SAID HERE OR THERE. BUT HE’S NEVER REALLY SAYING, “I SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP.” HE TWEET-DORSED HIM THIS WEEK. NOW THIS GROUP IS TRYING TO GET WALKER TO MAKE HIMSELF TO BE AVAILABLE TO GET DRAFTED. IT’S A STRANGE SITUATION. I THINK IF THE RULES OF THE CONVENTION GET CHANGED AND ALLOW FOLKS TO VOTE THEIR CONSCIENCE, AS GOVERNOR WALKER HAS SAID HE PREFERS, THEN ALL BETS ARE OFF. BUT THAT’S STILL PROBABLY NOT TERRIBLY LIKELY AT THIS POINT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SCOTT WALKER IS SCHEDULED TO SPEAK AT THE CONVENTION. ONE QUESTION I HAVE ABOUT ALL THIS, THE DRAFT WALKER, THE PLATFORM TO SPEAK AT A CONVENTION, WHY DOES A FORMER CANDIDATE WHO PERFORMED SO POORLY CONTINUE TO HAVE THESE POLITICAL LEGS WITHIN THE PARTY?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

WELL, HIS RECORD AS A CONSERVATIVE GOVERNOR ELECTRIFIES CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO THE POINT WHERE HE HAD NATIONAL NETWORK OF PEOPLE GIVING HIM MONEY IN HIS RECALL ELECTION. BECAUSE OF THE LEGISLATION THAT HE HAS SIGNED INTO LAW THAT CONSERVATIVES PREFER, HE’S STILL SOMEONE THEY LOOK AT AS SOMEONE THAT CAN DO GOOD CONSERVATIVE GOVERNANCE FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO HE WAS JUST A VICTIM OF THE NUMBER OF CANDIDATES AND THE BLUSTER —

MICHAEL WAGNER:

COULD HAVE BEEN. HE DIDN’T DO WELL IN THE DEBATES AND HE HAD TROUBLE RAISING MONEY BUT HE WAS IN A REALLY CROWDED FIELD WHICH CERTAINLY HURT HIM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IN THE U.S. SENATE RACE BETWEEN RON JOHNSON AND RUSS FEINGOLD, HOW DELICATE IS IT FOR EACH OF THEM TO HEW TO THEIR RESPECTIVE PRESUMED NOMINEES?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

IT ISN’T I THINK AS IMPORTANT AS IT MIGHT BE IN OTHER KINDS OF YEARS BECAUSE WISCONSIN IS GOING TO BE A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE LOTS AND LOTS OF TELEVISION ADVERTISEMENTS FOR BOTH FEINGOLD AND FOR SENATOR JOHNSON. IT’S A PLACE WHERE THERE’S GOING TO BE A TON OF MONEY SPENT. PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE A SENSE OF THESE FOLKS’ RECORDS AND IDEAS IN A WAY THEY MIGHT NOT IN OTHER PLACES, WHERE THERE’S LESS ADVERTISING MONEY SPENT ON THE CANDIDATES AND MORE ATTENTION PAID TO THE PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND YET THEY BOTH PLAN TO SKIP THE CONVENTION. WHAT’S THAT ABOUT?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

I THINK RON JOHNSON IS LIKE MANY REPUBLICANS NOT WILD ABOUT THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP IS THE PRESUMPTIVE NOMINEE OF THE PARTY. WISCONSIN IS A PLACE WHERE TED CRUZ WON ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE AND BERNIE SANDERS WON ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE. SO THE TWO NOMINEES ARE NOT THE MOST POPULAR AMONGST THE PARTY FAITHFUL IN THE BADGER STATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU SAY THERE WILL BE A LOT OF POLITICAL AD-SPENDING IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

CERTAINLY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU THINK THAT WILL MAKE UP FOR THE FACT, AND WILL IT BE COMING SOON, THAT PEOPLE WILL GET TO KNOW THESE CANDIDATES BETTER? POLLS SHOW THAT STILL THERE’S THIS REALLY LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO DON’T KNOW THEM?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

YEAH. I THINK THAT WILL START TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS. WE’LL START TO SEE MORE AND MORE ADVERTISING. HILLARY CLINTON HAS DONE SOME ADVERTISING. SHE’S AIRED IN THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ADS ACROSS THE COUNTRY OVER THE LAST MONTH. DONALD TRUMP REALLY HASN’T. BUT I THINK WE’LL START TO SEE FEINGOLD AND JOHNSON ON THE AIR FAIRLY SOON. THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF MONEY TO SPEND IN A VERY TIGHT RACE. IT’S ONE THE DEMOCRATS REALLY WANT IF THEY’RE GOING TO TAKE BACK THE SENATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WE CAN EXPECT WALL-TO-WALL ADS.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

I THINK OCTOBER ON, IT’S GOING TO BE A LOT OF THAT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

MICHAEL WAGNER, THANKS VERY MUCH.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

MY PLEASURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THAT’S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. NEXT WEEK, CHARLES FRANKLIN WITH HIS LATEST MARQUETTE LAW SCHOOL POLL AND ANALYSIS. I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

ANNOUCER:

FUNDING FOR “HERE AND NOW” IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION. FOR MORE INFORMATION ON “HERE AND NOW’S” 2016 ELECTION COVERAGE, GO TO wisconsinvote.org.