Frederica Freyberg:
I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” Republicans put the knives to Governor Tony Evers’ budget plan this week. A conversation with Wisconsin’s DNR Secretary Preston Cole and the politics of vaccinations in Wisconsin. It’s “Here & Now” for May 3rd.

Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is funded in part by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

Frederica Freyberg:
A first look tonight at how state Republican budget-writers are throwing over Governor Tony Evers’ $83 billion two-year budget, including his major priority items like expanded Medicaid and scaling back the tax credit for manufacturers. But there’s plenty more the co-chairs of the Legislative Joint Finance Committee want to pitch. Republican Representative Amy Loudenbeck of Clinton is the committee vice chair. She joins us from Janesville. And representative, thanks very much for being here.

Amy Loudenbeck:
Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
So as we’ve stated, Republicans will work off current law instead of using Governor Evers’ budget. Why the total overhaul?

Amy Loudenbeck:
Well, from a process standpoint, it will be a little different than the committee has operated in the past, but you in the end, we’ll have a balanced budget. We will consider some of the items that the governor had proposed. The policy items, likely not, but it’ll be more of an additive process. We’re going to build up from our base instead of working down from the items that he had proposed. In general, I think where we’ll end up is somewhere in the middle of where we are at now. And his budget — but I do think that the consensus in our caucus is that it’s too large of an increase for us to afford. It’s a $2 billion deficit almost at the end of two years, structurally, and we need to trim it back a little.

Frederica Freyberg:
In terms of the expanded Medicaid, the latest Marquette Law School poll as you know showed 70% respondents in Wisconsin favor expanding Medicaid but the majority wants to buck public opinion on this?

Amy Loudenbeck:
Well as we know, just a few weeks ago, and I think it’s been since the poll came out, we know that on a federal level, Medicare will be insolvent by 2026. So we already know that the obligations the federal government has taken on are too large. We want to not contribute to that overcommitment that we believe the federal government has made. We think there are options for individuals between 100 and 138% of the federal poverty level to obtain private insurance with very low or no deductibles at a very modest price. And we’d rather keep those folks in the private market where we think they get better care. We think the reimbursement rates are better for the providers. And we’re happy to have that conversation, but the question to accept the expansion, I think the appreciation of the amount of federal debt that that program could leave us on the hook for in the future is a risk that I hope that we can bring to the public and so there is an understanding of why we’re doing what we’re doing.

Frederica Freyberg:
So when you say there are better options for people between 100% and 138% of the poverty level, you mean Obamacare, basically, people being in the marketplace with the federal subsidies that accrue to the Affordable Care Act?

Amy Loudenbeck:
Correct. So there are options available for anyone that is not covered under the partial expansion that we already accepted to cover 100% of — adults up to 100% of federal poverty and children up to 300%. So the adult population that I’m talking about, yes, they have other options to be in the exchange. We have a robust provider network in federally-qualified healthcare centers. And we also have our safety net clinics, our charity clinics, volunteer health provider clinics around the state that we feel provide adequate care. We don’t have an access to coverage issue in Wisconsin. We’ve got a lot of people that are covered.

Frederica Freyberg:
Are you among those who is in favor of eliminating the Affordable Care Act, though?

Amy Loudenbeck:
Well, I understand the question, but we have to deal with the reality that we have now. And right now, as I said, we are investing in the healthcare stabilization plan which also uses federal dollars. We are going to direct people to the care that makes the most sense for them. We’re willing to put more dollars into assisting people and to either getting into the exchange or looking at other options. But the obligation of Medicare up to 100% of federal poverty level was a commitment that we made several years ago and has really made a difference in providing coverage to people. But taking that expansion, we have looked at other states that have taken that expansion and now they’re seeing the reimbursement rates go down to 90%. And they’re struggling to figure out how they’re going to honor the obligations they made. We don’t want to be in that position.

Frederica Freyberg:
As for other items that Republicans budget writers want to pitch, the cap on the income tax credit for manufacturers in Evers’ budget. His provision though would increase tax revenue by more than $500 million. Why do you want to maintain that tax credit even in the midst of this robust economy?

Amy Loudenbeck:
Well, we appreciate that there is a dollar figure attached in tax collections and there’s spending attached to that so we’re going to have to reconcile that in our process. However, for me especially in a border area, we have seen significant investment that has been spurred because of that tax credit. We have seen companies move over the state line from Illinois into Wisconsin because we have the M & A tax credit available. So we don’t want to — I don’t want to see the loss in economic activity that that tax credit has provided in my district. And so I think that reducing that cap — or putting in that cap would potentially impact some of the positive activity we’ve seen here.

Frederica Freyberg:
Just very briefly with only about 15 seconds left, the one thing I didn’t see on the list for elimination was an increase in the gas tax. So the majority budget writers expect to be able to work with that?

Amy Loudenbeck:
I still think everything is on the table as far as transportation is concerned. And that is — I mean, it’s certainly not a non-fiscal policy item. That is an item that would bear out in the transportation budget because we are looking at how we can fund transportation within the segregated transportation fund so it’s affordable, equitable, sustainable and adequate for future transportation needs in Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:
All right. We need to leave it there but obviously more discussion on this state budget as the weeks and months go on. Representative Amy Loudenbeck, thanks very much.

Amy Loudenbeck:
My pleasure. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
We turn now to a Democrat on the Joint Finance Committee, Senator Jon Erpenbach. Thanks very much for being here.

Jon Erpenbach:
Sure.

Frederica Freyberg:
What’s your initial reaction for Republican co-chairs’ decision to essentially gut the governor’s budget and work off current law instead?

Jon Erpenbach:
Well, it’s not surprising but it’s frustrating. People elected a Democrat governor and they elected a Republican majority in the Legislature and the message is really simple. Everybody work together. Play nice, get along, work together. And Governor Evers proposed in his state budget some great ideas to move Wisconsin forward. Investing in the right areas of K-12 education and so on but most importantly taking the Medicaid expansion, which generates another over a billion dollars in federal funding and other programs that are desperately in need of money throughout the state of Wisconsin in the area of health, but it’s frustrating. You know, not even giving the governor’s Medicaid expansion a chance, for example, when we had the four hearings around the state, that was the number one issue we heard about. Nobody showed up to say, “Don’t take the expansion.” Everybody showed up and said, “Take the expansion.” Counties want it. County governments want it. And the idea that we’re leaving, you know, our money sitting out in Washington, D.C. because the Republicans are being stubborn, that’s really frustrating.

Frederica Freyberg:
And yet Representative Loudenbeck with whom we just spoke said that the majority feels that it’s a risky premise to take the expansion because new reporting is suggesting that the Medicare Trust Fund will be insolvent within seven years and the feds don’t have the money.

Jon Erpenbach:
Well, 36 other states don’t believe that. They’ve all taken the expansion whether it’s Democrat states or Republican states. They’ve taken the expansion. Medicaid expansion by the way is derived out of savings through the Affordable Care Act. When Governor Walker was governor, their first argument was, “Well, we don’t know if the money is going to be there.” The money has been there year after year after year and more states are taking it yet Wisconsin, the Republican majority, is choosing to leave our tax dollars out in Washington, D.C. where we can get it back here, expand the BadgerCare program, cover somebody making, you know, $8.10 an hour with low cost healthcare and help them economically try and move up the ladder. So to me, it’s really frustrating that they’re not even giving it its due.

Frederica Freyberg:
Do you believe it’s an ideolog–

Jon Erpenbach:
I believe it’s — I’m not even going to go down that road but I know what you’re trying to say. The history on this is simple. Scott Walker was running for president. He didn’t want to take any federal money from President Obama. Broadband, high-speed rail, Medicaid expansion so on and so forth. To me, it’s not so much that, because if they really truly believe that it’s a handout, then increase the minimum wage, which they’re not going to do. So not only are they going to deny healthcare coverage for the poorest of the poor here in the state of Wisconsin, you’re also not getting an increase in minimum wage. So I’m not buying that. It’s hard to pick yourself up by the bootstraps when we aren’t providing just the basic necessities in life for low income people in order to make their lot in life better.

Frederica Freyberg:
Meanwhile, Governor Evers says he’s going to, “fight like hell to get Medicaid expanded,” but if the majority isn’t having it, there’s no real fight, is there?

Jon Erpenbach:
Oh, yeah. There absolutely is a fight. He’s the governor, for crying out loud. He’s the governor, and governors tend to get what they want, but at the same time, the Republican majority has to realize that they don’t control the whole show at the capitol anymore. It is their job to work with Governor Evers and Governor Evers has made it very clear from day one that his door is open. That if you do not like what he’s proposing in order to move the state forward, what are your ideas rather than battle it out in press releases and tweets. Let’s sit down and talk about it. So his door is open.

Frederica Freyberg:
Of all the other provisions in the Governor’s budget, the Republicans would through overboard like capping the manufacturing tax credit or freezing voucher school slots or legalizing medical marijuana, which are Democrats most unhappy about?

Jon Erpenbach:
It’s not a matter of being unhappy about it. Some of them I understand because it gets down to philosophical issues and I get that. But at the same time, when we have a responsibility as a state government to help out the neediest here in the state of Wisconsin and give them better opportunities, open up economic doors, so on and so forth. And they’re not even giving them Medicaid expansion or minimum wage increase the time of day that it deserves, to me that’s real frustrating.

Frederica Freyberg:
It appears that the majority is not eliminating a gas tax from the executive budget.

Jon Erpenbach:
Right.

Frederica Freyberg:
What kind of compromise do you expect there is to be had on transportation funding?

Jon Erpenbach:
Well obviously there’s going to be a compromise simply because they left it in there. Same thing with K-12 funding, they pretty much left that alone as it stands right now, though there’s probably going to be some changes in that coming. Our roads need to be fixed. We don’t have the money to fix them. We also need to expand in certain areas of the state of Wisconsin. We don’t have the money do that either. County roads are struggling. Town roads are struggling. So what Governor Evers has done is the responsible thing to do and that is to basically tax those who use the roads the most. And if you’re going to buy gasoline and use roads a lot, you’re going to be paying for them. Again, it sets up a short-term way to deal with a problem that we have within our transportation budget. And these are roads all over the state. All over the state that need to be fixed. And the Republicans have tried to borrow their way out of this for the past eight years and that’s not going to work anymore. So what Governor Evers has proposed is the gas tax increase but it also brings down the debt service a little bit too. So not only is our debt going the right way because of this, but we’re also putting money in transportation, which will stay in transportation and help fix the roads.

Frederica Freyberg:
Some heavy lifting ahead. Senator Erpenbach, thanks very much.

Jon Erpenbach:
Sure.

Frederica Freyberg:
The governor’s budget proposes millions more towards the Department of Natural Resources for science positions, water quality programs and clean energy. In tonight’s closer look, we sat down with DNR Secretary Preston Cole to learn more. We started by asking about his pledge to, “double down on science in natural resource management.”

Preston Cole:
Well, the notion of natural resources, you know, what’s embedded in that is a science of water, air quality, what’s going on with our fishing population — what’s going on in our forest. As a forester, I have a science-based background, but also the doubling down of science means that we should be using modern day technology as well as evolving technology. For example, the water council in Milwaukee is developing all types of strategies around issues around drinking water and storm water. And that’s the doubling down. We have to pay attention not only to the basic science of natural resource management, but also the evolving science and technology. And so that is the doubling down of science and technology.

Frederica Freyberg:
There’s funding in the governor’s proposed budget for the creation of a DNR Bureau of Science with five employees and a director. How far does that go toward making science the epicenter as you would say of natural resource management?

Preston Cole:
That gives a person who reports to me the opportunity to advise me accordingly on science-based natural resource issues of the day. What’s evolving in other states. What type of research is currently going on: forest, fish, wildlife, drinking water, water quality-related issues. And that person as my advisor has my ear. No good corporate company that has — that makes something doesn’t have a science and technology officer, a research development officer. We’re literally mimicking what the private industry has been doing for thousands of years, having individuals working on and advising leadership around ever evolving natural resource issues.

Frederica Freyberg:
What is your messaging on climate change? Because the previous administration as you know said it was in public dispute.

Preston Cole:
Well, the Department of Natural Resources and my opinion about this, and I will say that our position is we have to educate about what’s going on in terms of climate and climate change. We understand that it’s a real phenomenon that is currently going on and much of it is man-made. But we want to be able to tell that story in a variety of ways. You can’t go on a website of Wisconsin’s top leading companies, Fortune 500 companies, and not see a message around what they’re trying to do, what strategies that they’re putting in play to reduce their carbon footprint. So one doesn’t necessarily have to listen to the Department of Natural Resources on climate change. There are a litany of voices out there that understands from the highest levels of government to town halls and some of our villages, is that we believe this is going on. We have to do something about it. And again, that hue and cry from voices throughout Wisconsin, we want to be part of that discussion as to what citizens can do to mitigate and adapt to climate change.

Frederica Freyberg:
What are the top issues for you as you lead the DNR?

Preston Cole:
Consequently, drinking water is the number one issue. Of course, and as you’ve heard Governor Evers lead with, this is the year of drinking water. For those of us in the business of drinking water and regulating drinking water, it’s a very serious notion given the fact that surety has been lost in many communities around that you can’t turn on the tap and have surety that you’re going to get clean drinking water. So what we feel about that particular issue is, we also see signals from the Legislature who put a water task force in place. We believe that’s where we’re going to be able to get something done relative to drinking water. I’m excited about what it proposes from the task force that Mr. Vos has put in play to the governor’s signaling the year of clean drinking water. On the landscape, we know that chronic wasting disease in our cervid deer population is a challenge. So I’ve been asked to look back as to what has the state of Wisconsin accomplished with $52 million spent since 2002. I’ve also been tasked to ask other regions and other states what are they doing in terms of research so that we’re not duplicating research here in Wisconsin that other researchers may be doing.

Frederica Freyberg:
On CWD, I’ll get back to water in a minute, what has Wisconsin done since 2002 on CWD?

Preston Cole:
Well, one of the first things that we’ve tried is to eliminate CWD in the cervid deer population through harvesting them with programs like “Earn a Buck.” Earn a Buck was tasked to, you know, reduce the population. And it did a very good job of reducing the population. So much so, we felt pushback from a lot of hunters that weren’t seeing deer on the landscape. So consequently, we know that as recently as putting out kiosks where folks can leave us heads of deer and we know that in that spinal column and deer skulls is more prions that we’ve ever once known. Dumpsters, for folks who don’t want to move their carcass. We’ve limited certain places where carcass movement can be moved to and from, which is an important operational implication. And again, constant education about chronic wasting disease.

Frederica Freyberg:
On water issues, even with the increases in the governor’s budget proposal, are there enough resources for prevention and enforcement around this?

Preston Cole:
Well, I will say the governor has led with $83 million worth of effort. That’s a big lift in anyone’s mind. $83 million is $83 million. That said, where we hope to use those funds, again, is water quality, water quality protection, science-based water quality initiatives. Looking around the state as to where some of those emerging contaminants are, PFOS, which is a human threat, nitrates in drinking wells. So there’s never going to be enough money but we believe we can get something done.

Frederica Freyberg:
Two Wisconsin Senators, Tom Tiffany and Duey Strobel, called the Stewardship Program, “Wisconsin’s hidden debt” and say that it should not be re-authorized. What do you think about that?

Preston Cole:
I would say that everybody is entitled to an opinion. And the stewardship program is a legacy program that begins to coalesce around preserving pristine ecosystems that we find throughout the state of Wisconsin. But we have a number of properties where there are private inholdings. When those opportunities come up, the state of Wisconsin should be taking and purchasing those properties. And in doing such, we can have a unified state forest, a wildlife area without private properties internal to those. And so I would offer that as a counter point to what stewardship does in terms of preserving unique ecosystems as well as, you know, filling the gaps in current state properties that are out there.

Frederica Freyberg:
Some Republican legislators are concerned that the DNR will now embark on regulatory overreach. How do you respond to that?

Preston Cole:
We are a — certainly a regulatory agency. We take a common sense approach to regulations. We always have conversations with individuals first before we issue any actions. We have to understand the circumstances that behind any type of violation. And that’s the beginning of the conversation. Again, common sense regulations is what we put in play.

Frederica Freyberg:
All right, Secretary Cole, thanks very much.

Preston Cole:
Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
In tonight’s look ahead, with the worst measles outbreak in decades spreading across the U.S., lawmakers here are now looking at eliminating Wisconsin’s personal conviction vaccine waivers. Exemption waivers for medical or religious reasons would still be allowed. Wisconsin ranks fifth in the country for the highest number of exemptions for the measles mumps rubella vaccine for a non-medical reason. Public health officials worry it’s only a matter of time before cases of measles could crop up here. Dr. James Conway is a professor at UW-Madison School of Medicine and Public Health. Thanks for being here.

James Conway:
Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
So how alarm is it for public health officials like yourself to see these cases of measles spreading to 22 states?

James Conway:
It’s really quite concerning. It’s a really troubling virus to manage because of the long incubation period and because of how contagious it is. So it’s really alarming that it’s been spreading and will probably continue to spread for some time.

Frederica Freyberg:
Given Wisconsin’s law allowing children to forego vaccines, how vulnerable do you think this state is to an outbreak?

James Conway:
Yeah, it’s actually more remarkable to me that we haven’t had a case yet even though we’re surrounded by states that have had cases. We’re looking at probably 91, 92% of kids are immunized. And understanding that only about 95% of kids that have been vaccinated are actually fully protected and knowing that we need well over 90% of people to be protected to really control an outbreak, we are sort of an outbreak waiting to happen.

Frederica Freyberg:
Given that the MMR vaccine virtually eliminated the risk of measles, it doesn’t really feel that threatening, but how serious is that disease?

James Conway:
Well, it’s a miserable disease. I mean these kids start with fever and then really bad runny nose and cough and look like they just have a flu or something like that. Then rash, but a fair number of kids will get pneumonia. Diarrhea is pretty significant obviously. You know, more than 100,000 kids die every year from measles around the world mostly either from the secondary pneumonia or the diarrhea.

Frederica Freyberg:
For whom is it most serious?

James Conway:
For the youngest kids, they really do the worse with it. People with immune deficiencies, the elderly, but it’s really very unpredictable. So about 1 in 1,000 people are going to get encephalitis, a central nervous system version, and about 25% of them die.

Frederica Freyberg:
Infants, I understand, can’t get the vaccine. So they’re particularly at risk, I would think.

James Conway:
It’s interesting because moms that have some immunity will transmit that to baby. And so baby is temporarily protected. We generally wait until over 12 months of age because they don’t respond well to the vaccine because of that left over maternal immunity. But for outbreak situations or kids that are going to travel or are going to go into a measles endemic area, we actually will give the vaccine to 6 to 12 months olds.

Frederica Freyberg:
Meanwhile you’re saying that your phone is kind of ringing off the hook with other providers wondering how to handle this.

James Conway:
It’s really interesting because I think we’ve become a victim of our own success in some ways. I think a lot of providers, although we learn about measles, haven’t seen it very frequently. And as I said, it’s a little bit puzzling, a little difficult early on because it looks like just a regular respiratory virus until the rash starts. The whole illness lasts about 10 to 14 days but the incubation period is also 10 to 12 days. So it’s really hard once it gets established to shut down outbreaks because you’ve got people walking around that are incubating. People are contagious before they even have any symptoms. And they get into a pocket of people that are unimmunized and that’s really how the immunization issues manifest, is that most of the time these groups are clustered together. And so once you get into a cluster of people who are unimmunized, it’s like dropping a match into gasoline. It just gets going and it’s really difficult to stop.

Frederica Freyberg:
Is there a risk to this vaccine itself for autism or other things?

James Conway:
No, I mean that was one of those old wives tales almost really sort of a rumor that was started largely and then unfortunately some falsified data that was generated in the late ’90s by some researchers sort of led to this misconception. But vaccines are held to a completely different standard from other pharmaceutical products, for instance, that are introduced in the communities. And they are very closely monitored for safety. So we’ve got well over — we’ve been doing the routine MMR vaccine in the United States since 1983. We have literally tens of millions of patients that have been watched closely and there’s no association whatsoever with anything resembling autism.

Frederica Freyberg:
Very briefly, with less than half a minute left, what about older people, should they get a booster or something like that?

James Conway:
Yeah, one of the things we’re realizing is we’ve always presumed everybody born before 1957 had had measles but now that a lot of that population is traveling, those people really need to think getting vaccinated. People that sort of thought they might of had measles but never had it confirmed really do need to think about this.

Frederica Freyberg:
Dr. Conway, thanks very much.

James Conway:
Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
Back to the state capitol now, where some 4,000 people attended a rally calling for specific budget action on May Day.

[chanting protests in Spanish]

Frederica Freyberg:
Immigrant rights activists gathered at the capitol to push for driver’s licenses for undocumented immigrants.

Tony Evers:
We’re announcing tonight that undocumented folks will be eligible to receive driver license and ID cards.

[applause]

Frederica Freyberg:
Legislation to do so is included in the Evers budget proposal but has received no support from Republicans. Assembly Majority Leader Jim Steineke says, “Immigrants do indeed make Wisconsin stronger. Illegal immigrants, however, are breaking the law, and we should not validate that by extending privileges.” Currently, twelve states have a similar driver’s license proposal. And Evers says he would look to introduce the measure in a separate bill if Republicans take it out of the budget.

[chanting protests in Spanish]

Frederica Freyberg:
That is our program for tonight. Have a great weekend.

Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided in part by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.