. BUT FIRST, CONTINUED BUDGET WATCH COVERAGE. WE START TONIGHT WITH SOMEONE WHO SAYS TRANSPORTATION FUNDING IS A PROBLEM THAT’S OVERDUE FOR A SUSTAINABLE SOLUTION. IN THE CURRENT BUDGET, GOVERNOR WALKER WANTS TO BOND $1. 3 BILLION TO HELP PAY FOR ROADS. SOME G. O. P. LAWMAKERS ARE BALKING BIG TIME. MEANWHILE DEBT SERVICE WILL SOON CLAIM ONE-FIFTH OF TRANSPORTATION FUND REVENUES, A HIGHER SHARE THAN THE U. S. GOVERNMENT’S DEBT SERVICE. WISCONSIN TAXPAYERS ALLIANCE PRESIDENT TODD BERRY HAS WRITTEN A LOT ON THIS TOPIC IN RECENT DAYS. HE JOINS US NOW. AND TODD THANKS A LOT FOR BEING HERE.

TODD BERRY:
GOOD TO BE HERE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SO WE’VE GOT A PROBLEM. GOOD ROADS HELP MAKE A GOOD ECONOMY BUT WE CAN’T FIGURE OUT HOW TO PAY FOR THEM. HOW CHOKING IS THE CURRENT DEBT SERVICE FOR TRANSPORTATION?

TODD BERRY:
I THINK THE FEDERAL BUDGET IS USEFUL COMPARISON BECAUSE WE THINK OF 17, $18 TRILLION OF FEDERAL DEBT AND THE EXPERTS TELLING US THAT THE DEBT SERVICE FROM THAT WILL EVENTUALLY, YOU KNOW, IN 10, 20, 30 YEARS REALLY DO DAMAGE TO THE ECONOMY. PEOPLE WON’T WANT TO BUY U. S. BONDS. WELL, THE FUNNY THING IS, WE’RE ALREADY THERE IN WISCONSIN WITH THE TRANSPORTATION FUND. ONE-FIFTH OF THE DOLLARS ARE ESSENTIALLY GOING TO DEBT SERVICE AND IT’S ON ITS WAY TO ONE QUARTER.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US THEN WITH THE REST OF THE SPENDING THAT THE STATE NEEDS TO DO?

TODD BERRY:
IT’S KIND OF — IT’S FUNNY YOU SHOULD SAY THAT BECAUSE ONE OF THE COMPLICATING FACTORS IS, IN RECENT YEARS, WHILE GOVERNOR DOYLE TOOK MONEY FROM THE TRANSPORTATION FUND TO SUBSIDIZE THINGS, GOVERNOR WALKER HAS BEEN DOING IT IN REVERSE SO THE TRANSPORTATION FUND PROBLEMS HAVE NOT BEEN ONLY CREATING PROBLEMS FOR ROADS AND MAINTENANCE AND SO FORTH, THEY’VE BEEN CREATING PROBLEMS FOR THE GENERAL FUND FOR SCHOOLS, FOR MEDICAID, FOR THE UNIVERSITY BECAUSE IT’S BEEN A DRAIN ON THAT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
IN TERMS OF OUR DEBT SERVICE PROBLEM IN TRANSPORTATION, HOW HAS IT GROWN OVER THE YEARS?

TODD BERRY:
WELL, IF YOU LOOK BACK AT THE DEBT SERVICE AS A SHARE OF WHAT WE SPEND, BACK AROUND 2000, EARLY PART OF THE 2000S, IT WAS PROBABLY 5%, 6%. REALLY PRETTY OKAY, PRETTY REASONABLE. THEN WE HAD SORT OF THE FIRST WAVE WHICH WAS THE — A BUNCH OF BUDGET CRISISES WHERE THE FORMER GOVERNOR, DOYLE, TOOK MONEY FROM THE TRANSPORTATION FUND TO BALANCE THE GENERAL FUND BUDGET AND THEN BORROWED TO BACKFILL THE TRANSPORTATION FUND SO HE HAD A $1. 3 BILLION BUDGET OF BONDING AND A COUPLE OTHER HIGH ONES TOO. THEN GOVERNOR WALKER CAME ALONG AND THE LAST BUDGET HAD ALMOST A BILLION DOLLARS AND THAT HAD THE REPUBLICIANS IN THE LEGISLATURE PRETTY UNHAPPY. AND THEN THIS TIME THEY CAME OUT WITH $1. 3 BILLION AND THAT HAS THEM REALLY UNHAPPY. AND I GUESS THIS IS WHAT HAS SET OFF THE — YOU KNOW, THE BACK AND FORTH THAT’S GOING ON IN THE LEGISLATURE. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU GET — WHEN ONE-FOURTH, ONE-FIFTH OF THE DOLLARS YOU SPEND ARE GOING TO PAY OFF DEBT, YOU’VE GOT A PROBLEM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SO HOW DID WISCONSIN FIND ITSELF IN THIS PROBLEM OF LACK OF REVENUE?

TODD BERRY:
YEAH. YEAH. WELL, IT’S A PROBLEM THAT ALL STATES AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ARE HAVING, TOO. AND THAT IS THE MAIN SOURCE OF REVENUE IS THE GAS TAX. WELL IT’S A FLAT CENTS PER GALLON SO IF YOU DO NOTHING, IT LOSES VALUE TO INFLATION EVERY YEAR AND ASPHALT PRICES GO LIKE THAT GENERALLY. ON TOP OF THAT, THERE ARE FEDERAL MILEAGE STANDARDS WHICH ARE IN THE PROCESS OF DOUBLING AND SO PEOPLE ARE ALREADY BUYING HYBRIDS, ELECTRICS AND SO FORTH. OR THEY’RE DRIVING LESS SO WE’RE NOT PULLING IN AS MUCH GAS TAX REVENUE. SO THE REVENUE IS LITERALLY FLAT TO DECLINING AT THE TIME THAT, YOU KNOW, LABOR COSTS, EQUIPMENT COSTS, ET CETERA, ARE GOING UP. IT’S BEEN — IT’S BEEN A PROBLEM FOR, YOU KNOW, ALMOST TWO DECADES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
BUT MEANWHILE, GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER WILL NOT RAISE THE GAS TAX, HE SAYS. AND HE DOES NOT WANT TO RAISE VEHICLE REGISTRATION FEES SO THEN WHAT? OKAY. SO HE WANTS TO BOND. BUT THE LEGISLATURE DOESN’T.

TODD BERRY:
YOU ONLY HAVE THREE CHOICES. YOU CAN EITHER FIND THE REVENUE AND REMEMBER, I SAID IN INFLATION-ADJUSTED REAL TERMS, WE’RE ACTUALLY COLLECTING LESS IN FEES AND LESS IN TAXES. WE CAN BORROW OR — AND THAT EVENTUALLY CROWDS OUT SPENDING OR WE HAVE TO DECIDE THAT OUR APPETITE HAS TO SHRINK AND MAYBE WE DON’T HAVE AS MANY ROADS OR AS MUCH ROAD AID TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS OR WE DO WITHOUT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SO ON THAT THIRD OPTION, HOW DOES WISCONSIN COMPARE TO OTHER STATES IN TERMS OF HOW GOOD AND GENEROUS OUR ROAD SYSTEM IS?

TODD BERRY:
WELL, WE’VE DONE WORK ON THATANNUALLY FOR ABOUT 15 TO 20 YEARS. IT’S SORT OF A BENCHMARKING STUDY OF WISCONSIN. AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE LOOK AT IS ROAD QUALITY. GENERALLY SPEAKING, WE’RE AT OR ABOVE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE IN OUR SURROUNDING STATES. ALTHOUGH THAT IS ERODING NOW AND I THINK THERE’S SOME FEELING THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT COULD CONTINUE TO ERODE UNLESS WE SOMEHOW STABILIZE THINGS AND OBVIOUSLY CUTTING PROJECTS OR INCREASING DEBT BOTH HAVE THE EFFECT OF INVESTING LESS IN TRANSPORTATION IN THE LONG RUN. AND THEN YOU COME DOWN TO ARE WE WILLING TO GENERATE MORE REVENUE. SOMETHING’S GOT TO GIVE AND, YOU’RE IN A POSITION WHERE THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO BORROW. THE LEGISLATURE IS WILLING TO RAISE SOME REVENUE AND DOESN’T LIKE THE BORROWING AND SO WHERE ARE THEY MEETING? THEY ARE MEETING IN THE MIDDLE WHEN THE ONLY OTHER OPTION IS TO ESSENTIALLY STOP DOING THINGS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
ALRIGHT. WE LEAVE IT THERE. TODD BERRY, THANKS A LOT.